"Successfully Casts"

[Cadfan]

Cassandra's "Swirl of Motion" trigger reads: "Push this model up to 4" after it successfully casts this spell."

Coryphee's "Swirl of Motion" trigger reads: "After successfully casting this spell, push this model up to 4"."

Coryphee's "Blinding" spell reads: "Dg 2/3+Slow/3+Paralyzed. Push this model up to 3"."

Rules Manual page 50 reads, "A spell's casting cost is the TN the caster needs to equal or exceed to successfully cast the spell with a simple Ca-> CC duel."

Rules Manual page 51 reads, "If a Rst stat is listed for a spell, when it is successfully cast any model that could be affected by it must win a resist duel by exceeding the casting total or suffer the spell's effects. The resist duel occurs after the caster has completed its casting duel and successfully cast the spell. Friendly models that could be affected by spells requiring resist duels must resist as normal, but when determining totals, can choose to tie the casting total and suffer the spell's effects."

Rules Manual page 53 reads, "The caster may now declare that it is using one trigger that it has met the suit requirements for. The trigger's description will indicate when its effects are applied."

So here's what I'm getting from this.

1. Cassandra casts Breathe Fire, and gets a mask. She triggers Swirl of Motion. She immediately pushes 4, because this trigger specifically states that it occurs after the spell is successfully cast. AFTER SHE HAS LEFT, the target may make a resist duel. Her trigger is not dependent on the target's resist duel, just on whether she successfully cast the spell. Any effects the target make trigger that occur on successfully or unsuccessfully resisting a spell would occur after Cassandra had already pushed 4, and possibly left their range. This would include Slow to Die. On the other hand, Cassandra would not be able to observe the damage flip before deciding whether to push away with Swirl of Motion.

2. Coryphee Duet casts Blinding. They succeed on the cast, and get a mask. If they choose to trigger Swirl of Motion, they immediately push 4, before the target makes a resist duel, and before damage is flipped. Then all models affected by Blinding make a resist duel. The Coryphee is a model affected by Blinding ("Push this model up to 3."). The Coryphee can choose to tie this resist duel, and accept this affect. Meanwhile the target must also make its resist duel.

So first of all, can we confirm that this is correct?

Second, what's the order of operation on the Coryphee's 3" push from Blinding? If my spell has two effects, one of which is to inflict damage on you, and the other of which is to push me 3", where am I located when Slow to Die (or another relevant triggered ability) takes place?

[Q'iq'el]

I believe the 2nd goes a bit different.

The Blinding has 2 effects, the second affects Coryphée. The Rst: part works only on the defender and Coryphée is not one. In other words, she has no choice but must push up to 3". However this is only semantics, because she can choose to push 0", after all (it is "up to 3").

In other words:

The triggers you list happen after the attackers cast their spells successfully, regardless of the result of the Resist Duels.

The Blinding effects happen only if the defender fails the resist duel and if it fails, Coryphée has to execute it, though she can use 0" distance for the push. Effectively she has free hand whether she pushes or not.

Last but not least, ability to tie the Rst: result comes into play only if both the attacker and the defender are friendly to each other (and we're talking about Magic Duel). Doesn't apply to this situation, but worth remembering nevertheless.

[von Clausewitz]

Q'iq'el is correct on all accounts.

[Cadfan]

I don't see where it says that only "defenders" have to make resist duels. It says all models who can be affected. The Coryphee is a model. It is affected.

But looking at some other spells, I do see some situations that would be VERY screwed up under my interpretation (Expensive Gift). So I guess I'll go with yours.

[Q'iq'el]

In general spells affect the defender. If there is a secondary effect affecting the caster, it still is part of the spell cast on the defender. That the defenders are the only ones affected is part of the rules for the Magic Duel, I believe (writing from memory right now).

Secodarily, you have to consider that spells with Rst: duel attached are attacks and you cannot target the caster with his own attack.

It simply is a peculiar situation where the affected model is the defender, but one of the effects pushes the caster. It happens from time to time.

[Morgan Vening]

Q'iq'el is probably correct on all counts, and it should probably be played that way for now. However, there is definitely some vagueness in the rules regarding the interaction between "successfully cast", resisting, and applying spell effects. It was submitted to the Clarification thread for Wyrd consideration, based off the wording for Menace (which has similar separate caster and defender components).

Morgan Vening

[Cadfan]

Hmm, you're right. With Menace, I'd assumed that you moved forward whether or not your target resisted. But I suppose that if that's the case, then you should move with Blinding whether or not your target resisted.

But I'm fairly sure that Expensive Gift should definitely not give you a soulstone if the target resists.

[Aramoro]

If your target resists Blinding then you will not get the Push as far as I can see. I don't think there's any requirement for the effects to be directly targeting the resisting model for them to be resisted. Like if Razorspine Rattlers cast Constrict and have it resisted, do they still get the :rams on their Strikes?

[Kadeton]

Yes, I thought it was ruled (with regard to Menace) that if the target resisted, you would not get to move. Similarly, with Expensive Gift, if the target resists you will not get a Soulstone.

By that logic, if the target resists Blinding, you will not get to push 3" (but you could still trigger Swirl of Motion to push 4").

[CannonFodder]

Normally it states, "after damaging..." but in this case it doesn't. So technically if you make the CC value and have suit you get it. I know for Levi, my opponent usually draws a card regardless of I make it or not, and he is correct. The same applies here. If this is intentional or not doesn't make a difference.

I'm going to keep that one in my back pocket for next time.

[Morgan Vening]

Yes, I thought it was ruled (with regard to Menace) that if the target resisted, you would not get to move. Similarly, with Expensive Gift, if the target resists you will not get a Soulstone.

It was argued, and the majority opinion seemed to be that it was intended to work that way, but the rules as written are vague, and no Rules Marshall made an official declaration.

I'd like Menace to be a worthwhile spell, but with some of the other spells, like Expensive Gift, all it needs is a caveat added to Section 4 of the Magic section, saying that if all Resisting Models successfully resist, the spell has no effect. Assuming that's the way the rules are supposed to be interpreted.

Morgan Vening