The Riders and their Granted Powers Expiring

[wrabbit37]

Ignoring the Hooded Rider, since he works differently, when do the abilities granted by the phases expire on the Riders?

Do they stick around until the end of the turn and then go away, thus requiring you to activate again the next turn to get a new set of powers?

Or do they stick around until you activate again and reset to the new powers, so you would have a stance active at the beginning of the turn (except turn 1)?

[Bruglyother]

I just looked them over. I think your question is a good one for the dead rider and the pale rider. The mechanical rider actually acquires her power at the start of the activation phase. So, hers would be active as soon as the turn really gets going. (Wish I had caught that before. I lost her once when her late stage could have saved her.) So, while I can't really help with the other two, at least I can resolve the issue for mechanical rider.

[Kelle341]

as I read it you would have to activate it each turn to get the abilities someone can corect me if i'm wrong but thats the way i seeit and have been playing it

[nilus]

I think the intention was them to last till another one kicks in

[Mydnight]

I think the intention was them to last till another one kicks in

That's what it looks like, but since the ability is gained at the beginning of their activation the RAW would imply that it goes away at the end of the turn. That's how we played it when the question came up in regards to the Dead Rider and his fear aura, since it would go away and come back it would count as a new fear effect.

[Sybaris]

I suppose that it's as written, yes...but here we follow a different "spirit of the rule" instead, which is that the effect is on until it changes. We see it more like a mode switch for the model than a spell or ability that "fires up" by activations. It's just the moment of switching that is different from one rider to the other.

I don't have my cards with me but...if the ability "vanish" at the end of the turn, would they not default back to the first mode each turn or something like that?

Edited April 12, 2012 by Sybaris

[Mydnight]

I suppose that it's as written, yes...but here we follow a different "spirit of the rule" instead, which is that the effect is on until it changes. We see it more like a mode switch for the model than a spell or ability that "fires up" by activations.

I don't have my cards with me but...if the ability "vanish" at the end of the turn, would they not default back to the first mode each turn or something like that?

All abilities/effects with no stated duration expire at the end of the turn. In the case of the riders their abilities would start up on their activation each turn and expire at the end of the turn. That's how I understand it to be anyways.

[nix]

For reference, here is the wording from the book (I do not have the cards on me except the hooded rider)

Hooded Rider:

Passage of Time: Select one of the following at the start of the game:

Pale Rider:

Chasing Death: At the start of this models activation, it gains the benefit of one of the three Stages below. The Stage this model is in depends on how many models have been killed or sacrificed during this turn before the start of this model's activation. This model benefits from only one of the three Stages at any time.

Dead Rider:

Unnatural Purpose: Depending on how many Wd this model has remaining at the start of its activation, it gains the benefit of one of the three Purposes below. This model benefits from only one of the three purposes at any time.

Mechanical Rider:

Power Cycle: At the start of each Activation Phase, this model gains the benefits of the current turn's Stage below. This model benefits from only one of the three Stages at any time.

[Sybaris]

Agreed and that's quite correct, but how would it work switching from one mode to the other if you're not already in one at the beginning of your activation?

[Lucidicide]

Agreed and that's quite correct, but how would it work switching from one mode to the other if you're not already in one at the beginning of your activation?

When you start the activation you gain one of the modes. The (0) has to be your first Action. Therefore, you should never have a problem switching between modes with your (0).

However, aLeve can make all the Riders resolve their (0) as if they cast them. If they haven't activated yet and it doesn't last through Resolve Effects, this is almost a completely useless ability for aLeveticus. If they haven't activated, it does nothing. If they have, the can gain the Effects... which most of the time will do nothing for them since they've activated.

[Bruglyother]

... which most of the time will do nothing for them since they've activated.

While I'm not going to argue how the rule works one way or the other, I actually can think of how the aLevi ability could be helpful to riders who have already activated. Any Rider could activate in an aggressive power setting (Such as mech rider with Melee Expert and Brutal) and then have aLevi switch them to a more defensive setting (Mech rider armor +3 and Hard to kill). Aggressive riders that can take a real beating. In a crew with so few activations (Which an aLevi list is likely to be), this can be very powerful.

[Lucidicide]

While I'm not going to argue how the rule works one way or the other, I actually can think of how the aLevi ability could be helpful to riders who have already activated. Any Rider could activate in an aggressive power setting (Such as mech rider with Melee Expert and Brutal) and then have aLevi switch them to a more defensive setting (Mech rider armor +3 and Hard to kill). Aggressive riders that can take a real beating. In a crew with so few activations (Which an aLevi list is likely to be), this can be very powerful.

So, without looking at the cards, I'd say about 1/2 the abilities are offensive and 1/2 are defensive. You are correct -- there are times it could come very much in handy (Dead Rider heals 2, for example). I nevertheless think that the aLeve ability sheds some light on the other abilities based on the out-of-activation (0) processing. It might not give an answer, but might provide additional context.

Regardless, you're correct. I should not have said "most of the time"

[CrouchingMoose]

Back to when the abilities become active, i have a hard time believing that Wyrd made all these riders to be similar like they did, but have half have their changing power active permanently ( hooded, mechanical is effectively permanent since not much happens between resolve effects step, and start activation phase) while the other 2 dont get theirs till they activate. It just doesnt seem like thats how it should work and it should actually be start activation phase for all except hooded

[von Clausewitz]

All abilities/effects with no stated duration expire at the end of the turn. In the case of the riders their abilities would start up on their activation each turn and expire at the end of the turn. That's how I understand it to be anyways.

This is inaccurate. Per RM32 "All action and spell effects which do not indicate a duration" end during the resolve effects step. The rider's purposes are abilities and thus are, per RM12 "Always active unless otherwise indicated." In this case the "unless otherwise indicated" would refer to the specific rules for gaining the new purpose. The old purpose, therefore, only ends if the ability indicates that it ends, which it does (when it gains a new purpose because the rider can only be affected by one purpose at a time.

[Sybaris]

Thanks alot

[CRC]

Finally a coherent argument for why it works that way. This makes me much happier with the dead/pale riders.

[CRC]

Unfortunately, I found another rules reference, and it doesn't limit to Spell and Action effects...

If an effect does not have an end listed, it ends during the Resolve Effects step of the Closing Phase.

[von Clausewitz]

Unfortunately, I found another rules reference, and it doesn't limit to Spell and Action effects...

Either way, the specific rule about abilities trumps that. They are always active unless they specifically state otherwise.

[Gentleman J]

It seems to me that if abilities were to wear off at the end of a turn, that would open up a world of complication for Ability heavy models eg Pandora. Further the specific wording (using Dead Rider) of "This model benefits from only one of the three Purposes at a time" seems to be specifically how the previous turn's ability is ended. Otherwise there'd be no reason to say that. If the power ended with the turn it would be impossible to have two Purposes active at once.

[Q'iq'el]

The only thing I can think of is that these things Riders get from their unique abilities are called "Purposes".

Now is a "Purpose" just a handy name for an effect, or is it something new and unique defined on these models' cards and applying only to them?

In the later case it may well be the "Purposes" last until they are switched, but unfortunately it isn't worded clearly enough.

[sharpobjects]

With regards to the Mechanical Rider;

Power cycle states: At the start of each Activation Phase, this model gains the benefits of the current turn's stage. This model benefits from only one of the three stages at any time.

Regardless of what power benefit you had last turn, it will automatically change at the start activation phase of the new turn. So let's say it is now turn 5. On the previous turn 4 you used the Full Power Stage: +1 Melee Expert and Brutal Trigger.

Now on turn 5 you are now under the Powering Down Stage: Armor+3 and Hard to Kill. During the turn the Rider is attacked multiple times and makes good use of the added armor and hard to kill to stay alive. At some point late in the turn you activate the Rider and use your zero action and change the Power Cycle Stage. You decide to change it back to Full Power Stage and start the killing spree. When you end the Riders turn he is still under the effect of the Full Power Stage until the next turns start Activation Phase when he would go back to the Powering Down Stage.

So in essence, the closing phase and or resolve effects phase have nothing to do with what Power Stage the Mechanical Rider has.

With regards to the Hooded Rider;

He receives an ability at the start of the game. You select one of the three abilities on his card. each ability starts with either Morning, Noon or Night. Whatever ability you selected at the start of the game remains in effect for the entire game unless you decide to use a zero action on one of your activations called Chase the Sun. Depending on what ability you selected at the beginning of the game you may now receieve a different ability.

This new ability remains in affect until you use the zero action Chase the Sun again. If you never use the zero action again for the remainder of the game you continue to use the ability you obtained from using Chase the Sun.

The closing phase, resolve effects phase, ending your turn, beginning a new turn has nothing to do with what ability the Hooded Rider has from turn to turn.

These two Riders have it spelled out very nicely IMO as to what ability they have from turn to turn.

The Pale Rider and Dead Rider are not as clear. They gain the benefit of an ability listed on their card at the start of their activation. During turn 1 prior to activating, neither Rider has one of their special abilities in affect since they have not activated yet.

The issue with these two Riders is that it depends on either how many wounds the Dead Rider has taken or how many models were killed/sacraficed in the case of the Pale Rider to determine what stage they are in.

When either model would use their respective zero actions to change their current ability it does not say in its description that the ability remains in affect until the zero action is cast again. The reason I am guessing is because wounds and models killed/sacraficed can change it fom turn to turn.

Since neither of these Riders start the game/start activation phase with an ability I would tend to think that at the beginning of every turn they no longer have last turns ability in affect. These two Riders have to wait until they activate each turn and then take the models killed/sacrificed or wounds they have taken into consideration before they learn what stage they are in. Then they can use their zero action to change that stage.

[Fastenhate]

I just got my Pale Rider and looking to bring him to the table with the correct rules. Any chance we can get some clarity on the purposes/phases going away at closing? I am looking at it as an ability which after the initial setting turn one, is active for the rest of the game and would not go away each turn at closing.

[Turbodog]

I just think they should add a line to the pale and dead rider ability that says they keep the effects under each purpose until a new purpose is generated (at the start of their activation or when the proper spell is cast). Seems much more to be the intent. That way the wounds/number of models ganked can fluctuate throughout the turn and not constantly be changing the riders' purposes.