aSonnia: underwhelming?

[fishtank]

So I've tried her a couple of times now...maybe it's just the fact that when I've used her Ophelia seems to have knack of drawing a bead on her and causing massive damage, but I'm really not feeling why I should spend the stones to Avatar up, when I feel it means a dramatic lowering of her offensive capabilities in return for abilities that are, while potentially devastating, not reliable enough.

Let's break it down:

While you should be able to manifest turn 3, turn 4 is more realistic, unless you've been presented with plenty of stuff to throw spells at. I have yet to get Sonnia into position to deal out he sort of damage required for that step. Every time I've manifested has been based off the Inferno requirement.

Flight is nice...but having a walk of 4 kinda hinders that from being a huge factor.

Direct damage is non existant, unless you count the Burning tokens. Which I don't. "Light 'em up" causes no damage (though this does mean it can be combined with "feed on fire" as a handy two step heal). Searing wave is great...but does require being within 8" of a lot of enemies for an attack that really isn't causing a lot of pain, unless you've managed to pick away aat all the models in reach. Pyres should be fun, but I don't find myself having the actions tomake the most of them.

The kicker for me though is that Avataring turns Sonnia from a small target into a HUGE target. No more hiding behind that Guardian, and btw - you've lost his Protect, giving your opponent a window to blow you away.

I'm not saying she's underpowered, but I'm struggling to see the ways to get the best out of what seem to be relatively mediocre abilities that come with significant drawbacks.

[Lucidicide]

I'd say it depends what position your crew is in when you manifest. If you can (0) Searing Wave with a 13, almost no models will be able to resist the damage. If enough stuff is low, you can then spend 4 actions Violation of Magic trying to create Witchlings.

Like I said, it's all about what stage you are in the game. If you've spread some wounds around, she can really wipe out a crew. If you've been focusing on one model at a time, she will be less useful.

I think she is one of the most amazing avatars and brutally powerful.

[Calmdown]

She's one of only two auto-include avatars, so I wouldn't say she's underwhelming, I'd say she's pretty damn hardcore!

[ukrocky]

Played her three times, yet to be troubled. I think there's more than 2 auto includes too!

[Spiku]

A.Seamus, A.Sonnia, A'Som'er?

[Lucidicide]

I don't think there's ever an auto-include, but Seamus definitely wins that prize for me if anything does.

Regardless -- make sure the game makes sense for you to manifest when you do. If it's just going to get you killed, don't do it. You'll see battle reports where players have even burned stones to not manifest. Because regardless of the power of an avatar, you still want to make sure it's being used at the right time in the right way. Always remember you can control if and when it comes out.

[ukrocky]

A.Seamus, A.Sonnia, A'Som'er?

Off the top of my head (at uni). Auto includes that I think are;

- aSom'er

- aRamos

- aNico

Then there's plenty that I haven't even looked at

[Cunning]

Ramatar is teh awesomes.

[Lucidicide]

Not to be a pest, but let's try to stick on topic to address the question, which isn't which avatars are autoinclude :Hiding_Puppet:

Is aSonnia underwhelming? If so, why? If not, why not?

[ukrocky]

I find her underwhelming as every time I've played her she's done little to nothing. She has some nice tricks but so does her non avatar form. Without my book though and off the top of my head I can see her being great against certain crew builds, and next to worthless vs others.

[Calmdown]

Played her three times, yet to be troubled. I think there's more than 2 auto includes too!

Sorry, forgot Ramos. I meant Seamus and Sonnia. So'mer might be I guess but I wouldnt put him up there just yet.

The reason Sonnia is an auto include is because she gains a general stat increase and becomes a killing machine. I suspect the reason that you're underwhelmed by her is that you think her direct damage is nonexistant; it's very existant! Are you using the abilities correctly? She has multiple ways in which she can cause damage to multiple targets, and 4AP to do it with. She can even cause automatic damage, which is very rare in Malifaux (via moving Pyres).

[ukrocky]

As in I've played against her three times. I don't use dirty guild. I don't doubt she has damage output but she's a backfield caster that changes roles, I dunno, I need to look back at her I guess but even some good players haven't troubled me with her.

[Calmdown]

As in I've played against her three times. I don't use dirty guild. I don't doubt she has damage output but she's a backfield caster that changes roles, I dunno, I need to look back at her I guess but even some good players haven't troubled me with her.

I think her main power lies in the fact that with a Guild ranged crew, you're forced to close the distance to them or get wiped off the table (very few lists have problems closing distance, of course, as this is Malifaux...). But by the time you get there, you have to deal with angry Sonnia killing all of your units within 8" of her.

I'm not commenting on her power level in particular, just that she does provide something that Guild strongly lack; a very credible unit to punish you at close range.

[mistercactus]

I had a lot of fun pushing pyre markers under Pandora.

[Requirement]

The only time she underwhelmed me was when Hamelin's rats managed to kill her...

Other than that she has always treated me well. Most the avatars change rolls. aRamos becomes a melee killer. No big deal, play her foward just before you manifest.

[fishtank]

My real problem is getting her where sh needs to be with enough actions to do what I want. Maybe I'm just being impatient, but as soon as she manifests and becomes a bigger target she has a limited time fram to act.

I noticed that Pyre control has no range. I maybe need to start with them close and then push them out rather than trying to cage opponents in with them. I'll try that at some stage.

The real problem is seeing how her abilities COULD be devastating...but it seems to require perfect set up play to make it work, and it's only likely to be really effective against a fairly clumped up crew which comes to you rather than the ranged crews I've been facing (Ophelia, Rasputina)

[Brettqpublic]

I've been thinking about running the following list as an all-comers aSonnia list. It is pretty range heavy but between the soon-to-be stalkers and aSonnia I feel I'll should be OK at getting people off my Guild Crew - 35 - Scrap

Sonnia Criid -- 8 Pool

+ Sonnia, Avatar of Conflagration [2ss]

Brutal Effigy [4ss]

Desperate Mercenary [2ss]

Desperate Mercenary [2ss]

Guardian [7ss]

Nino Ortega [7ss]

Santiago Ortega [7ss]

Alternately,

I could cut the Family in favor of Austringers and another Stalker. If I went that route I'd probably cut the Guardian too.

Thoughts?

[nilus]

The only time she has failed me is when I played Sonnia to aggressive and got her ass killed before the avatar even came up.

If she manifests, she always delivers for me.

[gabrielpg]

Sonnia's Avatar is a beast if used correctly for three reasons:

1. Blazing Counterspell. Not only can she protect herself and any model within 3' of her she also punishes the caster.

2. Pyre + 2 Pyre commands. If you do this right you can either wound and give burning tokens to a large number of models or you can concentrate this on one model and just about kill anything in the game if it hasn't activated yet. Read what this spell says, you take 3 dmg whenever you touch a pyre for the first time and then 3 dmg whenever you activate touching one. So if you went first with Sonnia and put 2 Pyres on top of something, that 6 Dmg and 2 Burning tokens during your turn and another 6 dmg 2 Burning tokens whenever it activates where if it survives it still has to take more dmg or become slow to get rid of the tokens.

3. And then there is Light Em Up + Searing Wave. An excellent way to spread dmg around. And if you use it on something which you have already burned to a crisp with your pyres you could easily be doing a straight 2/3/4 dmg flip +3 dmg just from the burning tokens you put on it that round, so a minimum of 5 dmg if you wanted. (Only groups I wouldn't use this on are Rasputina and the Friekorps)

So to add up, thats 6 Dmg 2 Burning tokens from Pyre, a 3rd Burning token from Light em up, then 5-7 dmg from Searing wave, then another 6 Dmg and 2 burning tokens when they activate for a total of 17-19 Dmg and 5 burning tokens (6 if you got searing wave's trigger off) if they somehow manage to survive they are at the least going to be slow unless they can just eat the dmg from the burning tokens.

You just got to time it right and make sure you can cheat over their df with your cast on searing wave.

[mistercactus]

Sadly, it is not 3 dg when you touch it for the first time.

"model suffers 3 dg when it moves into base contact with a pyre marker"

emphasis mine.

If you move the pyre on top of them, they haven't moved, so no damage.

EDIT: typo!

[nilus]

You take damage from Pyres when

You begin an activiation under one

Your move into one(not having one move into you does not count)

You end an action under one

Also it was ruled a while ago that the effects of having two pyre counters on your is not accumulative.

All in all it ends up giving a model 3 undefendable damage when they activate and forces them to move or take more. Technically you could obey a model under a pyre to pass and it would take 3 damage that way as well.

[nix]

I also must disagree that aSonnia is underwhelming, I feel she is an incredible addition to the Guild and a great upgrade to Sonnia.

I find it interesting that in all the previous posts everyone focuses on Searing Wave and pyres, looking for massive damage to push out. This is purely my opinion, but I think Calmdown (ouch, my fingers hurt from typing that ) is on the right track.

aSonnia is very very good because she keeps Violation of Magic but upgrades her casting stat. She gains Adaptive Mind and a tome on her cast, letting her cast Violation much easier, along with raising her cast to an 8. Being able to reliable cast violation (needing a 9 of rams OR tomes) increases her capability on the table tremendously. I am always looking for opportunities to create a new witchling stalker that I can then position to tie up opponents shooting models.

Burning counterspell is amazing as now she not only stops the opponent from casting but punishes them for even considering the action. Lastly, do not underestimate her melee ability. 2/3/5 ignoring armor is a pretty heft punch. Add Horrific Burns to that and if your facing a living crew it provides a nice touch.

The trick is looking across all of her abilities and combining them. I think the challenge most people have is that Master Sonnia can work with just swinging her sword or just throwing out big blasts. aSonnia needs a combination of her abilities to really come into her own. When you find ways to combine abilities and then add in combinations with your crew, she leaps up the power-curve quickly.

[nilus]

The trick is looking across all of her abilities and combining them. I think the challenge most people have is that Master Sonnia can work with just swinging her sword or just throwing out big blasts. aSonnia needs a combination of her abilities to really come into her own. When you find ways to combine abilities and then add in combinations with your crew, she leaps up the power-curve quickly.

Its almost like you need to stop playing her like every other Guild model and start playing her like shes an Arcanist.

Its actually funny, I think ASonnia is a big boost for Guild because she gives a much more Arcanist style tool box of abilities to a crew. On the other end of the spectrum ARamos is great for Arcanists because he sheds a lot of his tools and becomes a much more straightforward guild-like master.

[rancor709]

I think nix and nilus hit it on the head. Avatar sonnia requires a bit of subtlty to use like most of the auto aavatars the change in playstyle combined with her gains in the form make her one od

f the most interrsting and consistent masters in the guild

[fishtank]

Hmmm. Nix and I actually chatted briefly about this the other day.

I agree with him to an extent, though I've had all sorts of trouble getting my opponents set up for Violations to be a feasible tactic.

I think that I maybe need to be more patient in her use. Certainly in my last game she would probably have been more effective used in a more defensive, cautious manner than full out attack, despite my facing a very nasty ranged crew and having Contain Power as my strategy.