Help me decide - Two 35 SS Crews

[crimzzen]

Hey Gals/Guys,

I'm looking to expand my Malifaux collection. Originally I wanted to do Kirai but now McMourning is looking pretty cool. Below are two crews (both open to suggestions) based on things I've read and model looks. Which one and why? What makes Kirai so good? Is McMourning strong or am I going to get stomped?

McMourning:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Dr. Douglas McMourning -- 7 Pool

Zombie Chihuahua [1ss]

Von Schill [10ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Canine Remains [2ss]

Canine Remains [2ss]

Dead Rider [10ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

Rotten Belles [4ss]

-I love the Schill model but I see he gets a lot of love with Doug; why? I know people like the night terrors but I absolutely hate the model. I figure I'll use the belles to get objectives, lure doug forward/enemies closer to doug. Rider is a great model and his ability to drag a model is strong.

Kirai:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Kirai Ankoku -- 6 Pool

Lost Love [2ss]

Dead Rider [10ss]

Insidious Madness [4ss]

Onryo [5ss]

Onryo [5ss]

Seishin [2ss]

Seishin [2ss]

Seishin [2ss]

I'll admit I'm not to sure why Kirai is so powerful? I get she can summon up spirits and shoot them great distances but with her wound pool I'm not sure how you do more than 1 or 2 (unless its just Ikiryo that you just repeat summon/sac).

I think I'm leaning towards Doug, simply because the models are cooler. I'd hate to get Doug though and find out he's just terrible.

Thanks,

[Jewomie]

I guess that depends on how much you want to spend...

I just started a McMourning crew, and got a good deal of advice from the folks around here... you're going to need a good deal more models than you have in Doug's list there.

you'll need at least 1 rouge Necromancy and 2 Flesh constructs for Dougy to summon. I believe they told me to pick up at least 4 Canine Remains. Plus you'll need other things as you go to fill out lists. If you don't like night terrors, i'm still using necropunks. they are cool, and if they manage to kill something, your opponent will be annoyed.

You're not going to have a set list for your strategies, you're going to want a few models to keep in mind, but really, you're going to need to base your crew on what you're doing.

From what i understand, that's a decent Kirai list, but i see a lot of people taking shikomi and loving them, and my brother LOVED his Gaki, so you might be inclined to pick them up as well...

Just food for thought my friend.

Good luck!

if you look back, you can find more of what they told me on my other two threads:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?29322-Are-you-tired-of-McMourning-lists-yet

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?29395-This-calls-for-an-Autopsy!

As for me... I went with Doug. He's more interesting, and more versital. That's my opinion though.

[crimzzen]

Thanks for the help. I typically buy a 35SS crew and that's it for models, not really looking to change out the crew based on the scenario. I will pick up 2 flesh constructs and a rogue necromancy though.

I wonder if i'd be better off replacing the dead rider with bete?

[Jewomie]

Personally, i grabbed both... :3

I love bette though. she has litterally won games for my Nicodem crew. The Dead rider just showed up at my door today, so admitedly i haven't tried him out yet. i do hear good things about his drag along ability... plus the hooded rider comes in handy in my neverborne crews, if nothing else, he soaks up attacks and serves as a decent destraction that can take down an enemy or two.

Bette on the other hand, can bury herself when she dies, and come back the next time a living or undead model dies.

I guess that would be the catch... she's good, but you'll need things that are living or undead in order to get her on the table...

canine remains are good for this.

[SoulG]

That McM list needs work. Belles are not good objective grabbers. If you're looking for a more all around model, consider The Drowned. They can function as objective runners and shock troops for both McM and Kirai. You generally want Belles -or- Dead Rider, not both.

Kirai should trade out an Onryo for 2 Seishin.

As you have them now, Kirai is the better master. In general she is top tier because she has some of the best movement tricks in the game, and in Malifaux movement is king.

[Jewomie]

That McM list needs work. Belles are not good objective grabbers. If you're looking for a more all around model, consider The Drowned. They can function as objective runners and shock troops for both McM and Kirai. You generally want Belles -or- Dead Rider, not both.

Kirai should trade out an Onryo for 2 Seishin.

As you have them now, Kirai is the better master. In general she is top tier because she has some of the best movement tricks in the game, and in Malifaux movement is king.

I haven't seen a whole lot of people who like the drowned, what makes you like them? i think they are cool and would love a reason to reconsider them.

Why would you take either the Rider -OR- the Belles? i have heard the opposite

and while Kirai's tricks might be better... i think throwing a scalpel at someone and sliding right up to them is WAY cooler.

[crimzzen]

That McM list needs work. Belles are not good objective grabbers. If you're looking for a more all around model, consider The Drowned. They can function as objective runners and shock troops for both McM and Kirai. You generally want Belles -or- Dead Rider, not both.

Kirai should trade out an Onryo for 2 Seishin.

As you have them now, Kirai is the better master. In general she is top tier because she has some of the best movement tricks in the game, and in Malifaux movement is king.

I guess the Belles and the Rider both do similar tricks (pull models to McM). I would hazard that the Belles are better unless theirs ItP on the table (like a hoffman list) but the Dead Rider can also put out damage.

If I dropped the rider (would I also drop the grave spirit?) and kept the 2 belles, I could toss in 2 drowned and another canine while pushing my pool upto 8 or bete and a canine using a summon construct for objectives.

Or is it better to drop the belles for drowned and keep the rider?

[Calmdown]

You should under no circumstances be running Drowned. They add nothing to the list, particularly not for 4 points!

Drop both Belles and add a Soulstone (McM needs Soulstones like a boss, and you can always drop one later but start with 8 and then work backwards); now you have 7 ss to work with. If you're running Dogs, either run 1 or 3+; McMourning will always cut one up for counters, and a single dog loses most of its good abilities. And in reality, I like a dog pack of 3 to add resiliency to their significance and Df debuff, so consider bumping dogs to 4 or leaving them at 1. Ordinarily I'd not suggest dogs with a McMourning list at all as he doesnt really gain anything from their death, light on summoning as he is.

Basically if you remove your Rotten Belles and a Dog, add Bete Noir, you have what I consider to be the absolute best McMourning all comers list there is. Bete or Rider will switch out for a flock of 3 Night Terrors (yes, one of those lists is 34ss.... it's still better than any alternative) depending on objective. Occasionally a Desperate Mercenary will make an appearance. But until you get very advanced, you have a pretty killer basic list (and one that hasn't lost a game for me yet in about 15-20 games).

[Buhallin]

you'll need at least 1 rouge Necromancy and 2 Flesh constructs for Dougy to summon.

I'd disagree with this a bit - I've never had need of more than a single Flesh Construct. I don't think he's worth the stones to take at crew selection, and realistically you're only going to have the opportunity for a couple of summonings during a game. I'd start with one of each - if you find yourself wishing for the second Construct you can pick him up later. I do agree on the 4 dogs, though.

I don't think I'd take more than one Belle with McMourning. They provide some great utility, and I'm always a fan of what you can do with Lure, but don't get too much other benefit with him. Plus without Seamus they tend to be on the slow side, and will have a hard time keeping up with McMourning. The good doctor is faster than he seems, and it's pretty easy to hang him out ahead of the rest of his crew. I'm still trying to get around to assembling my Rider, but he seems like he should be good.

[crimzzen]

You should under no circumstances be running Drowned. They add nothing to the list, particularly not for 4 points!

Drop both Belles and add a Soulstone (McM needs Soulstones like a boss, and you can always drop one later but start with 8 and then work backwards); now you have 7 ss to work with. If you're running Dogs, either run 1 or 3+; McMourning will always cut one up for counters, and a single dog loses most of its good abilities. And in reality, I like a dog pack of 3 to add resiliency to their significance and Df debuff, so consider bumping dogs to 4 or leaving them at 1. Ordinarily I'd not suggest dogs with a McMourning list at all as he doesnt really gain anything from their death, light on summoning as he is.

Basically if you remove your Rotten Belles and a Dog, add Bete Noir, you have what I consider to be the absolute best McMourning all comers list there is. Bete or Rider will switch out for a flock of 3 Night Terrors (yes, one of those lists is 34ss.... it's still better than any alternative) depending on objective. Occasionally a Desperate Mercenary will make an appearance. But until you get very advanced, you have a pretty killer basic list (and one that hasn't lost a game for me yet in about 15-20 games).

Thanks Calmdown, So what I'm looking at is:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Dr. Douglas McMourning -- 8 Pool

Zombie Chihuahua [1ss]

Von Schill [10ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Bête Noire [9ss] / Dead Rider [10ss]

Canine Remains [2ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Where does Bete pop out of, an enemy model or wherever required. Thoughts on using both Bete and the Rider at the same time?

Edited March 7, 2012 by crimzzen

[Calmdown]

Thanks Calmdown, So what I'm looking at is:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Dr. Douglas McMourning -- 8 Pool

Zombie Chihuahua [1ss]

Von Schill [10ss]

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Bête Noire [9ss] / Dead Rider [10ss]

Canine Remains [2ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Night Terror [3ss]

Where does Bete pop out of, an enemy model or wherever required. Thoughts on using both Bete and the Rider at the same time?

Not for all games. You need the non-Night Terror version too for combative strats and schemes. The combative version of this list is better if you are only going to have one list to start - a combative list can do objective grabbing strats, but an objective grabbing list will come up short in a combative strat.

Bete pops out whenever you can get her to pop out usefully. Personally I like to shoot things with Von Schill early and pop Bete out in the middle of their lines a lot, but it really depends on situation.

Bete and Rider at the same time? They really don't have any particular synergy, they're just the best models Rezzers have to offer from their limited pool of good models pretty much.

Also remember; that list is very unique to me, and though I consider it the "best" McMourning list, you may find it doesn't work so well for you. Copying a proven list is a good way to take listbuilding out of the equation whilst you learn but don't be afraid to experiment with other stuff if you see a use for it.

Edit: Oh, and just to reinforce, you absolutely must have a Rogue Necromancy and a Flesh Construct to summon. You will summon one or both every game. Also when you can, get a second flesh construct, as you'll very quickly start summoning a second one once you get used to managing body parts or when you get mired in very bloody games.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Calmdown

[rancor709]

+1 calmdown post

Everything he said is what I can tell you is the quick and easy route to competitive ressers. What I will add is if your not summoning a rogue and at least 1 flesh a game your not doing it right. Those models soak up hits and your opponent has to deal with them and forcing reaction is what helps wins games and gives you the upper hand.

[crimzzen]

Hmmm,

Is it wrong that I'm considering:

Douglas - 8 pool

chihuahua - 1

Schill - 10

Grave Spirit -1

Dead Rider - 10

Bete - 9

Canine Remains - 2

[Calmdown]

Hmmm,

Is it wrong that I'm considering:

Douglas - 8 pool

chihuahua - 1

Schill - 10

Grave Spirit -1

Dead Rider - 10

Bete - 9

Canine Remains - 2

Seems strangely familiar

[crimzzen]

Seems strangely familiar

Oh is this the combative list you were talking about? I think I must have gapped out there haha. I like it though! Thanks Calm

[Da Git]

I really like the lists & can really see myself using those...

@ calmdown. For the Night terror list, would you ever consider dropping Von Schill for the terrors & having both Dead rider & Betty?

Or is Von schill pretty much an auto include for you?

[crimzzen]

Well orders in:

Dr. Douglas Mcmourning

Zombie Chihuahua

Von Schill

Grave Spirit

Bete Noir

Dead Rider

Canine Card (actually just going to model the dog as GW body parts as it'll never see anything past the first turn)

Night Terrors

Flesh Construct

Rogue Necromancy

Thanks again!

[Calmdown]

I really like the lists & can really see myself using those...

@ calmdown. For the Night terror list, would you ever consider dropping Von Schill for the terrors & having both Dead rider & Betty?

Or is Von schill pretty much an auto include for you?

I don't like to ever auto include anything, I'm always open minded when making a list. If there was a specific reason to drop Von Schill and keep the Rider and Bete, I'd do so. That said, I can't imagine a situation, enemy, strategy, or terrain layout where both of those would be better than one of those plus Von Schill, off the top of my head. That's not to say it couldn't happen, though.

---------- Post added at 05:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 AM ----------

Well orders in:

Dr. Douglas Mcmourning

Zombie Chihuahua

Von Schill

Grave Spirit

Bete Noir

Dead Rider

Canine Card (actually just going to model the dog as GW body parts as it'll never see anything past the first turn)

Night Terrors

Flesh Construct

Rogue Necromancy

Thanks again!

You'd be surprised how often that dog has lived past turn 1 recently...

Congrats on ordering your stuff. You have everything you need to start cutting bitches!

[Zephir]

If you Take Bette instead of the Rider, who does the Grave Spirit link to?

[Calmdown]

If you Take Bette instead of the Rider, who does the Grave Spirit link to?

Depends on the list, but I sometimes have a wasted point in McMourning lists. If my opponent is running a high SS master I'd rather waste an SS than dip into McMourning's cache for another model; if he's running a low SS master, sometimes I'll drop my cache to 7 and buy a dog. If I'm wasting 1pt and don't have a spirit yet, sometimes I'll take him just for the activation; under certain strategies its better to waste a point.

I have on occasion linked Grave Spirits to dogs, too. I often run double Grave Spirit with Nicodem & Von Schill, and attach nico's spirit to something fast to allow me to place Fog or throw Decays etc where I want to.

[Zephir]

Another thought is to spend the extra points on a second dog so you dont have to kill your Chiuahuah for body parts. I have found him to be really usefull at Channeling Dissection.

@Calmdown - How do you manage Schill and McM both wanting all the soul stones?

[Calmdown]

I don't generally find that they both want all the stones.

I actually find McMourning very stone-light when he isnt under attack; and I generally don't commit him until it's to end the game, when he will usually burn a couple of stones annihilating something.

Von Schill is similarly not too intensive. He's so tough, and you have StD>Heal as a backup mechanism, that you can afford to let him take a few hits most of the time, and spend stones here and there on attack flips as needed.

I think people confuse "they both need stones" with "they both can use stones". They dont need them unless you play them like they have them; for example, McMourning can survive a good beating for a turn by burning stones, but youve put him in the position to need to do that most likely. The number of stones you need to use is a factor of the way you play the models (multipled by luck).

Edited March 10, 2012 by Calmdown

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I don't generally find that they both want all the stones.

I actually find McMourning very stone-light when he isnt under attack; and I generally don't commit him until it's to end the game, when he will usually burn a couple of stones annihilating something.

Von Schill is similarly not too intensive. He's so tough, and you have StD>Heal as a backup mechanism, that you can afford to let him take a few hits most of the time, and spend stones here and there on attack flips as needed.

I think people confuse "they both need stones" with "they both can use stones". They dont need them unless you play them like they have them; for example, McMourning can survive a good beating for a turn by burning stones, but youve put him in the position to need to do that most likely. The number of stones you need to use is a factor of the way you play the models (multipled by luck).

+1

Von doesn't need stones for most attack flips, stones are best reserved s2d heals with von. The rare ranged you kill you need from von is to pop bette, for those hold a high card and wait to activate von.

Mcmourning is most effective coming later, he goes down easy when swarmed, and an opponent cam burn your 8 stones to keep mcmourning alive pretty easily. Doug will could be forced ro use 1-2 stones per hit to stay up. While von against most crews can whether 1-2 hits per stone with s2d heal. Where stones get lost is in unneeded boosted attacks from von.

One of vons biggest assests is draining your opponents resources to take him down. Guild is about the factions that seems to stress his ss uses the most, but that is not saying much.