Math Mathonwy Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Well that bares no relevance to the conversation at all, given there are Bete posts. Further, the google inclusive search will reveal as much as the quick links > advanced search, given how commonly you will see Bete's name appear in lists and how freely people throw the term broken around especially given the nature of Bete posts including the term bury. But threads which have both bete and broken and/or cuddle that I checked for this year didn't yield results other than magickpockets's posts. The number of threads isn't all that great, really, and checking for cuddle/broken in threads that contain Bete isn't all that time-consuming. But magicpockets said that he has gotten these cuddle cries a lot in person, so I'm content with that. My main point actually is, that "people" cry for all sorts of things. "People" cry/have cried for Cuddling half the minis in the game, but I'm not sure what relevance that has to anything. Some things are sufficiently too powerful for their points cost similar to some Masters being better than others. But listening to "people" won't get you all that far, really. You need convincing arguments as opposed to random cries and I'm fully comfortable in ignoring the latter altogether while listening to and, if necessary, countering the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I generally like you, man, but you need to re-read this, take a long look at it, and ponder just how incredibly arrogant and insulting this sounds. I don't care how good think you are, how good you actually are, how much you know, or how much you share - attitudes like this are nothing but horrible for a game. That's a very arrogant stance to take; how do you know what is or isn't best for the game? In Q.A., and design, we don't care one bit about the personality of the person, it is their mechanical contribution. I'll happily take the bolshy if they happen to have good points, or abuse mechanics. Just as much as we take on clueless people to ensure that it is still accessible. We do, however, acknowledge the differences between the competencies of the people in question. Most of the statistical analysts I know tend to have certain personality traits that are abrasive, the same is true of our trading floor. But despite their personalities and world views, they are good at what they do. You need convincing arguments as opposed to random cries and I'm fully comfortable in ignoring the latter altogether while listening to and, if necessary, countering the former. What's your take on the whole Bete interaction with Levi, or the Nico nurse stuff? Given the nature of my crew I never see anything impressive in her used against me Edited March 5, 2012 by Spiku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 What's your take on the whole Bete interaction with Levi, or the Nico nurse stuff? Given the nature of my crew I never see anything impressive in her used against me It's powerful but not broken per se. There are multiple counters available, Bete is rather expensive, and she has some severe limitations. It's nasty but there's a lot of nasty things in Malifaux. The Bury mechanic OTOH is most likely not working as intended - I seriously doubt that the designers and testers had the current effects in mind when devising the mechanic and I do believe that the designers should take a look at it (as I'm sure they are) and decide whether they really want it to be like it is or revise it somehow. They might arrive at a decision to keep it as it is, but I just hope that due thought is put into it. Personally I would change it somehow, but I haven't given it enough thought to give a definite suggestion as to how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) In Q.A., and design, we don't care one bit about the personality of the person, it is their mechanical contribution. I'll happily take the bolshy if they happen to have good points, or abuse mechanics. Just as much as we take on clueless people to ensure that it is still accessible. We do, however, acknowledge the differences between the competencies of the people in question. This isn't really about game design though. Personality doesn't matter during playtests, or statistics or whatever, but this is how people choose to present themselves on a public forum - not during an inhouse testing phase. And I'm sure any developer worth their weight appreciates feedback, even the negative kind, and I don't think this is what gets people "riled up". What gets people riled up, from what I've gathered, is that every third or so* post made by MP or CD as of lately has contained some sort of remark that former poster/Wyrd/playtesters are wrong and that they themselves are the godgiven blessing to Malifaux, albeit misunderstood. I very much appreciate that the UK meta is a very competitive one, and that there are things that needs to be fixin', but it won't be fixed by stating how awesome you are every other sentance, or by backslapping eachother repeatedly either for that sake. Voiced opinions are great - Hubris, not so. *I'm not going to search for quotes, sorry. Edited March 5, 2012 by Soundwave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 SoundwaveI never search for quotes, I wouldn't expect it of you~ Math: We know all that. I mean in play; How has she done vs you, specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I generally like you, man, but you need to re-read this, take a long look at it, and ponder just how incredibly arrogant and insulting this sounds. I don't care how good think you are, how good you actually are, how much you know, or how much you share - attitudes like this are nothing but horrible for a game. Just to point out I didn't say ALL play-testers were average. And don't ask me to apologise for calling the kettle black (I hope that's not juts a British phrase - jic it has nothing to do with racism), I stand by my point and am just calling it as I see it. It's like letting me test-drive a new F1 track car and then the manufacturer complaining when a pro driver finds faults with it - you need the best people involved in testing, and they're the ones who can break stuff. Also, as for arrogance making for a horrible game - count the number of posts on here complaining about my arrogance and the number complaining about "broken" rules. I think the latter is more of an issue... And just for the record, I'm not p*ssed I'm not a play-tester (to be fair I was supposed to be involved in avatar playtesting last time but was too busy), my point is there's a LOT of very talented people on here who should be the first people to be asked by Wyrd to help. And if they don't ask, then it's not that person's fault if they break stuff and cause problems. ---------- Post added at 01:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ---------- every third or so* post made by MP or CD as of lately has contained some sort of remark that former poster/Wyrd/playtesters are wrong and that they themselves are the godgiven blessing to Malifaux, albeit misunderstood. We can stop posting it so often now if people are getting it ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ---------- The Bury mechanic OTOH is most likely not working as intended - I seriously doubt that the designers and testers had the current effects in mind when devising the mechanic and I do believe that the designers should take a look at it (as I'm sure they are) and decide whether they really want it to be like it is or revise it somehow. They might arrive at a decision to keep it as it is, but I just hope that due thought is put into it. Personally I would change it somehow, but I haven't given it enough thought to give a definite suggestion as to how. On a more serious note, I agree 100% with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Math: We know all that. I mean in play; How has she done vs you, specifically. I have been only on the giving end of the spectrum re:Bete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 It's like letting me test-drive a new F1 track car and then the manufacturer complaining when a pro driver finds faults with it - you need the best people involved in testing, and they're the ones who can break stuff.... very talented people on here who should be the first people to be asked by Wyrd to help. And if they don't ask, then it's not that person's fault if they break stuff and cause problems. *insert facepalm meme here* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 *insert "lets ignore the reality and all be nice to each other because we don't want to have our own opinion or risk upsetting anyone" meme here* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Well, I was kinda granting a bit of benefit of the doubt - that it was one of those random one-liners that was dashed off without realizing how it really sounded. So much for that idea. ---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ---------- That's a very arrogant stance to take; how do you know what is or isn't best for the game? In Q.A., and design, we don't care one bit about the personality of the person, it is their mechanical contribution. I'll happily take the bolshy if they happen to have good points, or abuse mechanics. Just as much as we take on clueless people to ensure that it is still accessible. We do, however, acknowledge the differences between the competencies of the people in question. You misunderstand. I'm not saying the attitude is bad for testing - that's a separate issue. What I'm saying is that it's bad for the game as a whole. It creates an incredibly unwelcome atmosphere in the community. Pockets can claim his post count as justification that he's not so bad all he wants - that just means people don't bother to call it out publicly. Given my experience with PMs and personal conversations with my local playgroups, I can safely say there's a pretty large contingent there that he's not taking into account. But even then, I've worked on teams with people who presented that attitude, and I can tell you my own experience is that they do more harm than good no matter how skilled they are. I watched an attitude like that cost a project close to $20 million. Maybe QA's different, I dunno - but I certainly wouldn't hire them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Pockets can claim his post count as justification that he's not so bad all he wants - that just means people don't bother to call it out publicly. Given my experience with PMs and personal conversations with my local playgroups, I can safely say there's a pretty large contingent there that he's not taking into account. Two things, almost everyone hates me until they meet me - I'm not sure I know one person who's met me that doesn't "get" me or dislike me, which is why I'm not too worried about people disliking "MagicPockets" as I'm not him. Also, my point re posts (I take it you mean about posts in which people criticise me rather than my personal post count) was that people can ignore me, flame me or whatever - they have that choice. Broken rules affect us all and we can't ignore them so instead of complaining about personalities we should be looking at how we fix issues and stop them happening in the future. Reducing my (I think pretty valid) arguments and ideas to "shut up because no-one likes you" isn't a shining example of the welcoming community you're looking for. And if your "PMs and personal conversations with local playgroups" are really about me, some people have too much spare time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I very much appreciate that the UK meta is a very competitive one, and that there are things that needs to be fixin', but it won't be fixed by stating how awesome you are every other sentance, or by backslapping eachother repeatedly either for that sake. Voiced opinions are great - Hubris, not so. I fully understand that not everyone really gets the extremely self-confident stance that some people take (such as myself); a lot of people even have genuine issues with said personality type (in real life as well as on the forums). That does not, however, translate to it being Hubris whenever someone says "I'm right, you're wrong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I watched an attitude like that cost a project close to $20 million. Maybe QA's different, I dunno - but I certainly wouldn't hire them. Doesn't really mean much if we don't have a scope of what that value is to the project; I've had 40k go down on a project and cripple it, and I've had 240m go on a negotiations bid and it meant nothing to company. Still, you need better managers when dealing with company or higher scale funds. Traders and analysts can be some of the worst people in the world, and if you're putting someone in charge of a project of that scale, and don't know how to use their skills and not let them misrepresent, then that's entirely your fault. If you watched an attitude cause that when it wasn't a director, then you're just as much to blame =3 The problem I have really is that you never really see valid arguments -against- what they say. When Calmdown explained how dreamer could remove Nico's defences after everyone said he was a tough master, no one had a rebuttal. The only arguments presented against tier list has been "my meta is different, because these people do best with these masters". At my three local stores I can tell you with 90% accuracy the result of any game between players; from these results I could say that Ophelia is top tier, and that Hamelin is a 100% loss vs gremlins. But if I just look at the mechanics of what we have, and then play with the player I know who would be better than me were he to have my ability to judge distances within a tiny margin; I would know where the relative power lay. Sure, I can beat his pandora with Som'er, but it is far harder than if I had a more suited character. Saying: you haven't played the guys at my group just shows a lack of mechanical dissection. That same lack of insight that has people saying Seamus is a good match up against Som'er because of terrifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Two things, almost everyone hates me until they meet me - I'm not sure I know one person who's met me that doesn't "get" me or dislike me, which is why I'm not too worried about people disliking "MagicPockets" as I'm not him. It doesn't really matter if you are or not. Whether he's really you or not, you create "him", and "he" presents an attitude that many find to be a pretty major turnoff in a discussion. You're responsible for that. Also, my point re posts (I take it you mean about posts in which people criticise me rather than my personal post count) was that people can ignore me, flame me or whatever - they have that choice. Broken rules affect us all and we can't ignore them so instead of complaining about personalities we should be looking at how we fix issues and stop them happening in the future. No, your point was that more posts are made complaining about broken rules than your attitude, so your attitude isn't so important and, by extension, you're right. I was simply pointing out that your counter is not complete. Nor is mine, of course, but it's a meaningless defense. But plenty of people care more about the atmosphere a forum presents as much as the quality of the hypercompetitive analysis. Reducing my (I think pretty valid) arguments and ideas to "shut up because no-one likes you" isn't a shining example of the welcoming community you're looking for. And if your "PMs and personal conversations with local playgroups" are really about me, some people have too much spare time... Nobody is saying "Shut up because I don't like you" so please, spare the martyrdom. This has nothing to do with the arguments or ideas you put forward - it's entirely about the self-superior, insulting attitude in doing so. Some people have taken a moment to point out that the supreme arrogance presented by certain posters - which has frequently been called out as inappropriate by Wyrd - is unwelcome and bad for the community. You may think that people commenting on the toxic atmosphere you create means they have too much time on their hands - nice way to turn it into an attack, BTW - but the effect on the environment is there, and it does impact people and their view of the game. You may not care about it, but you're obviously smart enough to know it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I fully understand that not everyone really gets the extremely self-confident stance that some people take (such as myself); "They say I'm Cocky and I say 'what?' - it ain't bragging Mother F***er if you back it up" - Kid Rock, never a truer word spoken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Most useful post in this whole thread (it reminded me that I should be listening to some Bowie)! I was congratulated for not responding to that with a making love with his ego comment ;3 I almost shed a tear laughing at this exchange *grin* To add to what Spiku's saying, here's my local meta tier list: 1) Hamelin 2) Kaeris, Nicodem, Lady Justice, Perdita, Sonnia, Dreamer, Ramos 3) Rasputina, Lilith, Colette 4) Seamus When you consider that most of us are still new and I have the most experience of our budding little group, it makes more sense. Is there a cut off on a given local meta? Seems to me that my local meta would have no place in a tier list that draws from mostly high-level play as we are nowhere near that. ---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ---------- "They say I'm Cocky and I say 'what?' - it ain't bragging Mother F***er if you back it up" - Kid Rock, never a truer word spoken Quote needs less sellout and more Lemmy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Quote needs less sellout and more Lemmy. Kid Rock, sell out? How dare you sir.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I was right with Mr. Pockets all along - but with this absurd Kid Rock reference I must now call his judgement into question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Buhallin, obviously we've had many a conversation outside of this thread and hopefully you know I don't have any issue with you, nor do I take exception to your comments - I know I come off as abrasive to say the least. However I don't think there's anything I say which is unwarranted or not backed up, like Spiku says that's more than most of the rebuttals I get. It's just a shame that people (not you btw) think that responding to my "attitude" is the same as responding to the points I make - and it isn't. If people don't like that I call things as I see them (like in the other thread where I took credit for something and some folks got upset by that) then the best thing is to ignore what I say. I'm not in the habit of being mean to people or anything just for sport or in the name of so called trolling, I just don't feel a need to mince my words because people are more sensitive than me. And of course I'm not saying that's okay, but I dont think it's out of order either. And stepping back a bit, this thread has (inevitably) derailed hugely into something not constructive at all. I'll keep responding etc as people criticise me, but the sensible side of me thinks this thread would be best wrapped up with a padlock icon. ---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ---------- I was right with Mr. Pockets all along - but with this absurd Kid Rock reference I must now call his judgement into question... Have to admit, Kid Rock is a guilty pleasure of mine - even seen him in concert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Is there a cut off on a given local meta? Seems to me that my local meta would have no place in a tier list that draws from mostly high-level play, as we are nowhere near that. I would like to hear from more experienced players on this. Were it possible to build a fairly objective aggregate tier list, would there be a cut off for what local meta would and would not be included, and what would said criteria be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Buhallin, obviously we've had many a conversation outside of this thread and hopefully you know I don't have any issue with you, nor do I take exception to your comments - I know I come off as abrasive to say the least. However I don't think there's anything I say which is unwarranted or not backed up, like Spiku says that's more than most of the rebuttals I get. It's just a shame that people (not you btw) think that responding to my "attitude" is the same as responding to the points I make - and it isn't. And I won't defend that when it happens. But the flip side is just as common. I don't find Calmdown's "You're just inexperienced if you think that" to me any more of a valid debate point than someone attacking your attitude over the issues. A great many people feel the atmosphere on this board is becoming unwelcoming and toxic. That affects people. My enjoyment of these games often feeds from the ability to discuss them with other players, and that includes here. I'll be blunt - I don't contribute as much as I used to because it's unpleasant to do so. That is directly attributable to a few posters with attitudes like the one you're defending. I experience more game-related stress trying to follow the nasty discussions than I ever have in a loss to the Dreamer. "Just ignore it" and "people just don't like my honesty" is the shallow refuge of the rude. People can't do that easily, and your honesty is not the problem, and I think you know that. Trying to foist your bad behavior off on those who feel uncomfortable and unwilling to participate in a discussion because of the way you or others will respond to them is crassness of the worst sort. Your behavior is your responsibility, and the negative impacts it has on this community is your responsibility. It's very possible to contribute everything you have to contribute without being insulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgfree Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I would like to hear from more experienced players on this. Were it possible to build a fairly objective aggregate tier list, would there be a cut off for what local meta would and would not be included, and what would said criteria be? My issue is the notion that a objective tier list should be built by a panel of experienced/highly skilled players. An objective tier list should be build-able by anyone with a valid data set and a computer. If it is truly objective, the list will be created by statistical analysis. A truly objective tier list should always return the same results based on a set of valid data. If we created a truly objective list, we should get the same outcome regardless of meta. I do not think a true objective tier list is impossible, rather, we simply have a woefully thin supply of valid data with which to build a list. If the goal is to create a objective tier list, we have a long wait ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I don't find Calmdown's "You're just inexperienced if you think that" to me any more of a valid debate point than someone attacking your attitude over the issues. That's not entirely fair. He had raised that whilst all the options are present, they are not achievable. In fact it was on the very subject of Nicodem, which in this thread still went unanswered as to what he has to compete. Further, he was right. The person admitted their inexperience. You might not think it was right of him to say it, but he was correct in his judgement. No one seems to pay any attention to the arrogance of the person he called inexperienced. The person who said that you are A) a bad player or playing him wrong, as the only explanations as to why CD did not rate Nicodem. The same person who believed that "no one plays Nicodem" like he does. An objective tier list should be build-able by anyone with a valid data set and a computer. If it is truly objective, the list will be created by statistical analysis. A truly objective tier list should always return the same results based on a set of valid data. If we created a truly objective list, we should get the same outcome regardless of meta. The problem here is you would need some form of measure of skill. Or rather an array, that compares set responses to different scenarios and reactive cognitive responses. You would have to class results from each player based on their competencies in different aspects of play, or rather differences. Otherwise, me playing the worst player in my store has equal data to the best, at which point we lose all merit for a competitive tier list. There is a vast gulf of difference between measuring mechanical tiers of units in a game, and the results of play of the players themselves. I've beaten The Dreamer 75% of the time I have played against him as Gremlins; this would be hugely misleading data for measuring the system itself, but dramatically revealing of the skill of my opponent. What compounds the problem is the use of VPs to determine ranking. If I go to a tournament, and the brackets end up with weak players on one side, with myself there, and the other side is all the masters; I will in all likelihood end up with a far higher ranked score, despite not playing anywhere near as hard. Victory should be the only criteria considered; and there really should be finalist games. But generally people don't feel there is time for it =3 and speaking of which, I've lost 1st place in two tournaments because turn six didn't happen because of time, so we can scrap that from my bias ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I would like to hear from more experienced players on this. Were it possible to build a fairly objective aggregate tier list, would there be a cut off for what local meta would and would not be included, and what would said criteria be? Including anything less than big events as 'meta' is asking for skewed results. You need to set your criterion and stick to them. I think any ranking worth a $$$$$$$$ needs to be focused on large tournament play - IMO 24+ players. And, yes, in that sense 'Meta' matters - for example saying that Gremlins are Tier 1 except they are terrible vs. Hammy and Dreamer - the current 'meta' at any large event means that Hammy and Dreamer will likely be fielded, pushing Gremlins out of tier 1. (I don't necessarily agree with this - just an example.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Why do you feel gremlins have a poor match up vs Hamelin when they have models that ignore insignificant, numerous blasts, attrition against Nix, card killing, huge amounts of unresisted aoe that wont trigger Nix's failed test ability, 10" flying movement that can kill a stolen on a 8+ cheatable flip, McTavish with (0)shrug off, and ability to deal direct Wds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts