Zephir Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Yeah this has gotten way off topic. I'm out, the open Challenge stands. I'm in the dc area and will be at gen con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Challenge accepted, except you wont travel here, and you wont accept the play online option ;3 Calmdown: Safest call you've ever made; because I have no interest in searching your threads to find it. Edit: Anyway, why post more lists? We have the most comprehensive one on at the bottom of page 1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Feel free to have your Yanks v Brits throwdown here in Ireland. We're between you guys and TOTALLY unbiased! I'd just like to add that I've yet to meet a Hamelin player that wins games, by which I mean I've yet to meet a Hamelin player - full stop - so with the information available to me I have to place Hamelin in the very bottom tier since I've never seen him win a SINGLE game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 My local meta: 1: Pandora 2: Som'er/Ophelia 3: Neverborn 4: Kirai/Perdita 5: Von Schill 6: Guild/Ressers 7: Colette/Hoffman/Hamelin Clearly as myself and Mergoth both place Hamelin in the same place, he must be removed from top tier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Re: Gencon; it really doesn't change the fact for the majority of people here, that's a vast expenditure and which usually eats into holiday time. I like to go to places that provide a break from my day to day, not stomping the exiled Protestants. Especially with all those better countries to visit, like Bangladesh or Somalia! You do know that on average you Brits get more then double the amount of vacation(aka Holiday) time a year we Americans get. US average is 13 days, UK is 28 days. You guys get over a month off. So boohoo to your Holiday time I think the idea of having you guys come here was that you could experience Gencon, which is a giant game convention and a lot of fun. Really if you came for that we would only be kicking you asses at Malifaux for a few hours. We would even promise to do it quickly so we could get you over to the con to play other games, shop or go Drinking. Heck we'd even buy you a beer after we make you cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 IMO, in this game tiers don't really enter into it. A Master/Henchman is as complex to counter as he/she is to play, and vice versa. Then it's pretty much down to skill level, experience and knowledge. Just because a certain player can't make a Master work doesn't make the Master bad! Y'know what they say about workmen... In my meta, Molly wins more games than she loses, which logically and mathematically must place her above average in a "tier". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Challenge accepted, except you wont travel here, and you wont accept the play online option ;3 You find a fair, online way to play the game that doesn't hurt my brain to use and I will totally play anyone, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 We had Gencon over here for a while, good times. For all the talk of making people cry, and beating them (which is almost entirely your side of the world perpetuating), still no one accepts the entirely usable option to play remotely~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 IMO, in this game tiers don't really enter into it. A Master/Henchman is as complex to counter as he/she is to play, and vice versa. Then it's pretty much down to skill level, experience and knowledge. Just because a certain player can't make a Master work doesn't make the Master bad! Y'know what they say about workmen... In my meta, Molly wins more games than she loses, which logically and mathematically must place her above average in a "tier". So you're saying that if 2 players can play their master the best that the master is able to be played then it'll come down to luck og the cards who wins? No matter which masters they happen to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I'm with Nilus, Spiku, find a reliable way to do it, and it's on of course... i've never played against gremlins, so i am shakin in my boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) edit: Just in case anyone raises it; my post about no one accepting was being typed before the other responses came in ;3 having to pretend to work and respond between. I have a reliable way to play: I can set up a board, or we can use GameTable; I even provided an option for untamperable deck play~ Hell we could just use Vassal. Not like I haven't already said it in posts. Edited March 1, 2012 by Spiku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 So you're saying that if 2 players can play their master the best that the master is able to be played then it'll come down to luck og the cards who wins? No matter which masters they happen to be? There's very little point trying to explain it. People wear blinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 edit: Just in case anyone raises it; my post about no one accepting was being typed before the other responses came in ;3 having to pretend to work and respond between. I have a reliable way to play: I can set up a board, or we can use GameTable; I even provided an option for untamperable deck play~ Hell we could just use Vassal. Not like I haven't already said it in posts. I'm not familliar with GameTable, but if you're serious about this, i'm all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) So you're saying that if 2 players can play their master the best that the master is able to be played then it'll come down to luck og the cards who wins? No matter which masters they happen to be? Mostly, yes. Certain matchups may tip the balance in one way or the other, for example a resser crew won't be able to pull all their stunts against a full construct crew, but on the other hand against a full living crew Seamus will become nigh-on unkillable. But across the board that is what I believe. There's very little point trying to explain it. People wear blinkers. As well thought out and articulate as the argument "people wear blinkers" is, I think you just need to take a step back and... calm down, Calmdown. Other people have opinions that are just as valid as your own, even if they're not plastered over the internet for others to validate for you. Edited March 1, 2012 by Mergoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Mostly, yes. Certain matchups may tip the balance in one way or the other, for example a resser crew won't be able to pull all their stunts against a full construct crew, but on the other hand against a full living crew Seamus will become nigh-on unkillable. Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Seamus is never nigh-on unkillable. Masters vary hugely in power level. You cant claim that they're all on par and skill is the only balancing factor. If anyone here agrees with that, then this epidemic is worse than I thought. As well thought out and articulate as the argument "people wear blinkers" is, I think you just need to take a step back and... calm down, Calmdown. Other people have opinions that are just as valid as your own, even if they're not plastered over the internet for others to validate for you. Sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Most people have their own skewed views (Perdita is OP!) formed by their own playgroups and experience and are unable to see what constitutes good and bad. Nontheless, they'll espouse their opinions as truth in the face of far, far more experienced players who know them to be wrong. :internet: Edited March 1, 2012 by Calmdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Sorry, but this is dead wrong Hahahahah, and you're talking about Seamus/Ressers. Hilarious. DEAD wrong. Ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Mostly, yes. Certain matchups may tip the balance in one way or the other, for example a resser crew won't be able to pull all their stunts against a full construct crew, but on the other hand against a full living crew Seamus will become nigh-on unkillable. Um okay. I completely disagree but that's opinions for you. Definitely disagree about Seamus. In all my time playing Lilith I played against Seamus a good number of times played by someone who only rally played Seamus and had been for ages. He never beat me even when my only non-living model was the PMagic. If Wyrd managed to perfectly balance all their masters then they've achieved something very impressive. They haven't though. And I think it's somewhat naive to think they have. While Master A can beat Master B under the right circumstances for any value of A & B there are definite variations that the game will be stacked in B's favour to one degree or another. Edited March 1, 2012 by CunningStunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Seamus is never nigh-on unkillable. Masters vary hugely in power level. You cant claim that they're all on par and skill is the only balancing factor. If anyone here agrees with that, then this epidemic is worse than I thought. Sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Most people have their own skewed views (Perdita is OP!) formed by their own playgroups and experience and are unable to see what constitutes good and bad. Nontheless, they'll espouse their opinions as truth in the face of far, far more experienced players who know them to be wrong. :internet: Thanks for your reply. I find your argument technique of passive-aggressively calling to question the holder of the other view-point's experience and intellect, with the complete absence of facts either proven or theoretical, to be thought provoking and dazzling. A very well dressed up way of shouting "n00bz!!!11". Since it seems neither of us will change (our opinion), I suggest we go back to being just friends. Seems my mother was right all along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 you know what they say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergoth Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 In all my time playing Lilith I played against Seamus a good number of times played by someone who only rally played Seamus and had been for ages. He never beat me even when my only non-living model was the PMagic. Then it seems that in your meta, you are a better Lilith player than your buddy is a Seamus player. Well done. In MY meta, the reverse is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I'd just like to point out that Seamus isn't automatically good against living crews. Gremlin pig lists benefit from terror, as it causes stampedes; which you can factor in. Further, Bayou Gremlins are a 2ss model that can double their damage. With Htw2, Seamus is far more likely to cause a red joker to appear on a 4 card damage flip. A Bayou Gremlin can potentially do 12 damage through that, and against Seamus I bank on it; I'll aim for 4 flips over anything else because I know my bayou has multiple shots for very little cost. Admittedly, vs Avatar Seamus, piglets wont be able to touch him due to the terror making them stampede and heal him ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Then it seems that in your meta, you are a better Lilith player than your buddy is a Seamus player. Well done. In MY meta, the reverse is true. I'm afraid I disagree. Especially when I started he was a much better player than I was. The first game I ever played I brought him to a draw. The 3rd game I ever played I trounced him. It's just that Lilith has an advantage over Seamus. The first time I played against Calmdown's Dreamer (which I believe was the first time he ever used him) he trounced me and I'd been playing lilith for a decent amount of time then. In fact I've only ever once beaten the Dreamer in all the time I've been playing malifaux. Some games have been close but I still lost. He just has a natural advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Then it seems that in your meta, you are a better Lilith player than your buddy is a Seamus player. Well done. In MY meta, the reverse is true. A tier list is meta-independant. It assumes equal skill levels. Clearly the Seamus player here is better than the Lilith player. That doesn't mean that Seamus is better. Lilith is much better than Seamus, and with similar players, she'll destroy him much more often than he does her... even though her crews are often living. So the fact that a better player is winning does not alter the fact that the master is bad (and in fact, shows that Malifaux is a good game where skill can win out over disadvantages). Or maybe the reason Seamus is better is cos you're playing him in Ireland? Seems like he'd maybe draw some power from that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 No snark, all sincerity: what data did you use and what type of analysis did they run? I have been trying to run statistical analysis and I cannot make the data fit. I have been trying to see if I could massage the data into ANOVA but my attempts have been fruitless so far. I cannot come up with a data set that meets the assumptions needed to run a robust analysis. Another approach that could be taken is to run a Regression analysis, but again I keep running into the problem of not meeting the RSNDP/homoscedasticity assumptions. We tracked various games and the events that occurred, such as movement and damage. We aren't using traditional statistics so much as aiming for formulas that predict a models performance based on probability and potential actions. We are creating our own formulas based upon various game balance formulas designers use. Its about half art and half science. Sadly we don't have time to play Malifaux all day every day, so getting actual game data is tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well, I did hear a rumor that aSeamus has hurl corpse because of Mergoth, so you know... *wink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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