Doppleganger tips and tricks

[Hateful Darkblack]

Just noticed something awesome Doppelganger can duplicate. Nix's Gorge on Pain.

Then, the Doppelganger can copy something new every time a nearby model is Sacrificed!

Unfortunately, there's no way to get them onto a crew together, so you can only do this if you're opposing a Hamelin crew.

[EnternalVoid]

Just noticed something awesome Doppelganger can duplicate. Nix's Gorge on Pain.

Then, the Doppelganger can copy something new every time a nearby model is Sacrificed!

Unfortunately, there's no way to get them onto a crew together, so you can only do this if you're opposing a Hamelin crew.

An interesting idea though the only problem is that each of the different types of Mimics seems to be an effect based off the wording. Meaning you can't Mimic Talent twice as Mimic Talent is an effect and you can't stack effects with the same name. This would only let you copy the 5 types of Mimic and use (0) Mimic Healing as it is not an effect but just a (0) action that allows the model to take a healing flip.

Also as the Doppelganger had already activated alot of them would not be much help save for perhaps copying some defense, maybe a defensive Talent, healing, or perhaps the most important which would be Harmless to use.

[Enki]

It may be worth it to borrow zoraida's bayou two-card if say the Red Joker happened to be on top especially if you can borrow something else that lets you draw/cycle cards like the scales of justice.

[i_was_like_you]

Has anyone mentioned copying Lilith's Master of Malifaux to target models with fun things like Transposition or Lilitu's Lure?

[EnternalVoid]

Huh, something I just noticed that I had not really thought about.

Now most Cb triggers state the name of the weapon, thus making it that if the Doppelganger wants said Trigger they have to also copy the weapon. Limits some crazy options you could do otherwise. But I noticed something, the Flay on Terror Tots say "Claws" and a Mature Nephilim's weapon is also entitled "Claws". Might have to throw this one up on the Rule forum but by definiation you could copy Flay off the Terror Tot and the Claws from the Mature and still use the Trigger. Kind of mean considering the damage spread *Would only do this if I could charge and had a very high Mask in my hand*.

[Hateful Darkblack]

An interesting idea though the only problem is that each of the different types of Mimics seems to be an effect based off the wording. Meaning you can't Mimic Talent twice as Mimic Talent is an effect and you can't stack effects with the same name. This would only let you copy the 5 types of Mimic and use (0) Mimic Healing as it is not an effect but just a (0) action that allows the model to take a healing flip.

Wait, really? I can't copy two talents? Are you sure on that? I've never seen that interpretation before. Other than your line of reasoning (which I understand -- you're saying it's an effect, and multiple uses of an effect don't stack), do you have anything to back this up? RM ruling? Errata? Examples?

[marful]

Wait, really? I can't copy two talents? Are you sure on that? I've never seen that interpretation before. Other than your line of reasoning (which I understand -- you're saying it's an effect, and multiple uses of an effect don't stack), do you have anything to back this up? RM ruling? Errata? Examples?

Actually, he's right, which means mimic is much much less useful and I've been doing things wrong with the Doppleganger.

Page 20 of the free flattened rulebook under Stacking Effects.

Ongoing game effects:

Do not stack (apply their effects cumulatively) on a model if received from Talents or Spells with the same name unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions. Ignore additional applications of the same name effect to that model.

Do stack when listed as [name]+/-, such as Armor +1, even if they have the same name.

Do stack when received from Talents or Spells with different names.

Action modifiers with the same name do not stack (see p.34).

From the Doppleganger:

(0) Mimic: Target a model within 8” and LoS and chooses 1 effect. This lasts until the End Closing Phase. Effects that reference a model by name cannot be Mimicked.

Mimic Appearance: Regain Harmless.

Mimic Attack: Replace Fists with a basic weapon possessed by target model. Doppleganger uses its own Cb for this weapon.

Mimic Spell: Gain 1 (1) Spell possessed by target model. Mimic Statistic: Replace Wk/Cg, Ht, Wp, or Df, with the

same stat value possessed by target model.

Mimic Talent: Gain 1 Talent possessed by target model.

As you can see Mimic Talent places an effect on the model of a specific name titled Mimic Talent:. So only one talent can be gained via Mimic.

[Eyclonus]

Has anyone mentioned copying Lilith's Master of Malifaux to target models with fun things like Transposition or Lilitu's Lure?

Been thinking of that, Master of Malifaux sets up the trick, the problem is that I can't think of any good offence spells to copy and blast through terrain.

Edit: Been thinking about trying to do something with Z, DG and a Nurse.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Eyclonus

[Kalkris]

I would allege that Mimic ___ off of the (0) Mimic did not actually have application other than helping illustrate the main action through fluff. If the two talents were the same, I could see your allegation being reasonable. How it stands usually (in wording), however, gives me reason to believe otherwise.

Are you saying that everyone who has made a link-bomb with Pandy and the Doppelganger have been wrong this whole time? I get where you are coming from, kind of, but I still dont agree due to wording confusion... It says that effects which refer to a model by name cant be mimicked, so i would claim that the talent (or stat, or what have you) cant be taken twice, but you can Mimic Talent/Statistic/whatever twice in a row.

~Lil Kalki

EDIT: furthermore, re:

Just noticed something awesome Doppelganger can duplicate. Nix's Gorge on Pain.

Then, the Doppelganger can copy something new every time a nearby model is Sacrificed!

Unfortunately, there's no way to get them onto a crew together, so you can only do this if you're opposing a Hamelin crew.

Nix can be hired if you hire Hamelin the Ratcatcher too

Edited March 26, 2013 by Kalkris

[micahwc]

Huh, something I just noticed that I had not really thought about.

Now most Cb triggers state the name of the weapon, thus making it that if the Doppelganger wants said Trigger they have to also copy the weapon. Limits some crazy options you could do otherwise. But I noticed something, the Flay on Terror Tots say "Claws" and a Mature Nephilim's weapon is also entitled "Claws". Might have to throw this one up on the Rule forum but by definiation you could copy Flay off the Terror Tot and the Claws from the Mature and still use the Trigger. Kind of mean considering the damage spread *Would only do this if I could charge and had a very high Mask in my hand*.

By that logic you could do the same thing with Lilith's greatsword and Lady Justice's triggers. Both have "greatsword" as their weapon. However, if I remember correctly Nekima's would be out because she has a "neverborn greatsword". Also would work with the 10 thunders brothers and the Torakage.

[EnternalVoid]

~Lil Kalki

EDIT: furthermore, re:

Nix can be hired if you hire Hamelin the Ratcatcher too

Okay I am going to start by saying that your post is a little hard to follow. I am suspecting it is because you only quoted the one post and you are actually refering to several. I suggest doing something like;

@ Tedpro

And then typing your response here.

That way it is a little clearer which posts you are refering to exactly.

Now that is out of the way, a few things. First taking Hamelin the Ratcatcher does not automatically make you able to take Nix in any list. Nix is not a Mercenary or a Ht1 model, he is an outcast model with Spirit, Soulless, and Insignificant. As he does not have either of those things he can't be taken normally in other lists unless they have something like Kirai's ability to always take Spirits from any faction.

His Hamelin's Dog talent says "This Model can only be hired by a Crew containing any Hamelin model." It does not say that you can always hire this model in a crew containing any Hamelin model. This keeps Kirai from taking Nix unless she shells out the soulstones for Hamelin the Ratcatcher. You can even go to the Crew Creator to try and see for yourself.

I would allege that Mimic ___ off of the (0) Mimic did not actually have application other than helping illustrate the main action through fluff. If the two talents were the same, I could see your allegation being reasonable. How it stands usually (in wording), however, gives me reason to believe otherwise.

I am going to start this by first saying that marful had a very good post explaining this and that it is right in the way the rules are written and Intended.

Now, I am sorry but I am not really seeing where you are drawing your basis from. The (0) Action Mimic strait out says choose one effect in its rules and Wyrd in their FAQ and rules make it clear how effects operate. Okay not entirely clear but once you have the understanding it is alot simpler. You are trying to compare your idea of what is reasonable to what the actual rules are and what they are intended to do. Had they wanted you to have the ability to use Mimic Talent twice they would have put something in the core part of Mimic saying you could have multiple copies of the effects.

Mimic Talent, Mimic Spell, Mimic Attack, and Mimic Statistic are all clearly effects that, as per the FAQ, "Sit on" the model where Mimic Appearance effect only remains till you Regain Harmless, at which point the effect is done.

Are you saying that everyone who has made a link-bomb with Pandy and the Doppelganger have been wrong this whole time? I get where you are coming from, kind of, but I still dont agree due to wording confusion... It says that effects which refer to a model by name cant be mimicked, so i would claim that the talent (or stat, or what have you) cant be taken twice, but you can Mimic Talent/Statistic/whatever twice in a row.

If it refers to a model by name you can't mimic it. I think we agree on that. So if the Talent, Spell, or what gives the actual name of any model in it, it can't be mimicked. So if Zoraida, Mature Nephilim, or Teddy shows up in the wording if it, it can't be mimicked.

What prevents you from using Mimic Talent twice is between the fact it is an effect and Malifaux's rules on how effects work. That restriction has nothing to do with the restriction based on the 'refer to a model by name' part. It is entirely based on the rules for game effects.

So I can copy a weapon and a talent, a talent and a statistic, a statistic or weapon, or even spell and talent, but not the same one of those twice.

As for Pandora players doing it wrong all this time, most I have heard about, whether reading, talking, or seeing myself, have done it correctly. They would link first turn, that way they don't have to Mimic Talent to get link again, and then second turn onward Mimic what ever other Talent they need that turn.

---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 PM ----------

By that logic you could do the same thing with Lilith's greatsword and Lady Justice's triggers. Both have "greatsword" as their weapon. However, if I remember correctly Nekima's would be out because she has a "neverborn greatsword". Also would work with the 10 thunders brothers and the Torakage.

Exactly, thus why I put it up on the Rule Forum for comments. Cause your right, as long as the weapon had the same name, by the wording you should be able to do it. The difference between the greatsword and weapons of Wushu is that the claws of the Terror Tot and Mature have to very different damage profile while the Greatsword and that have the same damage line and special rules.

Still I have not found anything that says that you can not do this, nor has any moderator hopping in as far as I know.

[i_was_like_you]

Been thinking of that, Master of Malifaux sets up the trick, the problem is that I can't think of any good offence spells to copy and blast through terrain.

Edit: Been thinking about trying to do something with Z, DG and a Nurse.

Copy MoM from Lilith, and copy a ranged weapon from someone else, even if it means not taking the triggers it might have. Plenty of fun merc guns to choose from: Hans, Trapper, VonSchill's clockwork seeker, Lazarus' grenade launcher, etc. Same goes for finding a nasty spell to copy.

[EnternalVoid]

Copy MoM from Lilith, and copy a ranged weapon from someone else, even if it means not taking the triggers it might have. Plenty of fun merc guns to choose from: Hans, Trapper, VonSchill's clockwork seeker, Lazarus' grenade launcher, etc. Same goes for finding a nasty spell to copy.

That is a good list so far, Self Loathing is a good one and you can use it from safety thanks to MoM. Just need a 7+ for it to go off. Or Dementia to save Pandora's AP.

To add to it some thoughts, remember you can attack through walls thanks to MoM. So you can copy a melee weapon and reach through walls and hit people too. Relic Hammer or Lilith's Greatsword are both good options, are are Mature's claws.