Change to blight counters ?

[tadaka]

Gamers Lounge had an interview around Hamlin recently and they mentioned a damage resolution change so blight counters go in to effect before they take wounds and thus add the blight counter wound to the first hit. Can any one give me any insight in to this change I am missing as my Search Fu has failed to dig this up.

Thanks in advance.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Very possibly it was ruled in the Henchmen forums and not in the general rules forums.

[Omenbringer]

Very possibly it was ruled in the Henchmen forums and not in the general rules forums.

I dont see anything on the Henchmem side in regards to it.

[von Clausewitz]

This is the ruling you are looking for.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20176-Order-of-resolution-of-triggers-(eg-Ronin-Run-Through-vs-BOOM!)&p=230593&viewfull=1#post230593

Suffering wounds is part of a single damage event. The wounds from blight counters are combined with the wounds from the attack into a single total.

[Headcase2]

Ignore this, misread the question.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Headcase2

[Mike3838]

The question is, does the original attack that gave the Blight Counter benefit from +1dg. It was suggested on that podcast that it does, because the BC is applied "on hitting" and *then* damage is resolved, ie. You already have the BC when the calculate Wds step is reached.

Seems off to me, but that's RAW currently.

Mike

[tadaka]

I don't have my cards handy but the book for hamlin says to give a blight counter when wounding the target. The changes site does not list any change for this so i have no idea how that would be RAW.

[Mike3838]

I think you may be right tadaka. I think Magicpockets might have been referring to the Poison ruling which clarified that Poison counters are applied "on hit", where before it was unclear.

If Blight Counters already have their own rules saying you get one when Wounded then I think he was mistaken in the podcast.

Mike

[Hjelmen]

The rule on Malifaux Rats Yellow Teeth says:

Models damaged by this Weapon gain one Blight Counter.

So wouldn't that mean that the Blight counter/token doesn't add to the damage inflicted by that attack that applied the Blight token?

[Mike3838]

Oh dear, if we're opening up a can of worms labelled "damage" then I can't call it either way.

Wait for a RM to confirm one way or the other, or maybe Magicpockets will stop by and explain what he meant.

Mike

[tadaka]

Rats and Hamlin blight counters are worded 2 ways in the book it seams. Rats list on damage Hamlin on wound. I looked at Hamlin page as that was what was listed in the podcast.

[magicpockets]

Hello

I'd always played it out that the first attack never benefited from the blight counter but with the damage resolution order chart thing that got explained a few months ago they gain the counter before wounds are calculated and then it's there to add +1wd when wounds are actually calculated. I'll try and dig out the thread the person who told me was referring to etc but I was surprised when I got told to be sure.

[ShaddowKatt]

The question is, does the original attack that gave the Blight Counter benefit from +1dg. It was suggested on that podcast that it does, because the BC is applied "on hitting" and *then* damage is resolved, ie. You already have the BC when the calculate Wds step is reached.

Seems off to me, but that's RAW currently.

Mike

Rats and Hamlin blight counters are worded 2 ways in the book it seams. Rats list on damage Hamlin on wound. I looked at Hamlin page as that was what was listed in the podcast.

What podcast are you talking about?

[magicpockets]

Okay, I think this was it -

When you are attacked, you Resolve Damage. Damage Resolution is the whole process from being hit to you models Wound Total being changed. In the Damage Resolution Phase you

• Work out how much Dg the Weapon has caused. including triggers and other bonuses.
  
• You take that value and modify it with Armour and Spirit etc. This gives you the final Dg total.
  
• You then change Dg to Wds.
  
• It's at this point you prevent Wds by spending soulstones.
  
• Any Wds remaining are applied to the model.
  

At the end of the Damage Resolution Phase any Wounds Taken is the amount of Damage a attack has caused. Even if this total is 0 Damage, the attack counts as damaging as it has went through the Damage Resolution Phase.

If a Black Joker is flipped for damage, "No Damage" is Caused and therefore Damage Resolution never happens and effects that work on Damaging therefore do nothing.

When you lower damage with Prevention, IE. by spending a Soulstone, if there are no Wounds left after Prevention you also count as having caused "No Damage" and the Damage Resolution is interupted and effects that work on Damaging do nothing.

Essentially damage effects are now applied in step one and wounds in step three. It's just got messy with this Damage/Dg/Wounds thing but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon with this FAQ document.

[von Clausewitz]

Okay, I think this was it -

Essentially damage effects are now applied in step one and wounds in step three. It's just got messy with this Damage/Dg/Wounds thing but hopefully we'll get some clarification soon with this FAQ document.

This conflicts with the ruling by Keltheos that I posted. Keltheos states that "after damaging" effects occur after resolving the entire damage step.

Also, Ratty's post makes it clear that "on damage" effects do not occur until the entire damage resolution step is complete, because if you prevent wounds with a soulstone, or the black joker is flipped for damage, no wounds are dealt (step three), and therefore no damage, and "on damage' effects do not occur.

Ratty: "When you lower damage with Prevention, IE. by spending a Soulstone, if there are no Wounds left after Prevention you also count as having caused "No Damage" and the Damage Resolution is interupted and effects that work on Damaging do nothing."

You say that "on damage" effects occur after step one, however if that were the case, the effect would already have resolved before the damage prevention soulstone flip, which Ratty clearly states as preventing "on damage" effects from occurring. In short, both Ratty and Keltheos make it clear that "on damage" effects occur after the entire damage resolution step is completed.

Edited February 26, 2012 by von Clausewitz

[tadaka]

What podcast are you talking about?

Gamers Lounge

Looks Magic who is posting here now was the person who mentioned the change.

[Todd]

Yeah, I'm getting the same from Ratty's quoted post as the Keltheos one Von Clausewitz linked to. After damage occurs after the entire process.

[Ratty]

Yep, I can't see how my post could be read another way. On Damage/Damaging comes into effect at the end of damage resolution. So blight counters would be put on the model much to late to effect that damage resolution.

---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

I think the best way to think of things is to totally separate Damage and Dg in your mind.

• Damage is the result of a completed Damage Resolution.
  
• Dg is a value that is used in the early stages of Damage Resolution.
  

[tadaka]

Yay nurf Hamlin.

(Just a JK)

I think this might be one of the most helpful posts I have read in a long time.

"I think the best way to think of things is to totally separate Damage and Dg in your mind.

Damage is the result of a completed Damage Resolution.

Dg is a value that is used in the early stages of Damage Resolution."

[magicpockets]

Well, that rebalances Hamelin then.

[Stern]

Well, that rebalances Hamelin then.

Yes indeed it does

[Todd]

Well, that rebalances Hamelin then.

Magicpockets, I think you've discovered the key to stopping all the Hamelin whining. Just convince people he's even more broken than he already is for a day or two, and then people won't find him nearly as bad in comparison.

[Mydnight]

• Damage is the result of a completed Damage Resolution.
  
• Dg is a value that is used in the early stages of Damage Resolution.
  

Just out of curiosity, does this apply to McMourning's Organ Donor ability? The card text uses the Dg value. There is a thread discussing it here http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?27749-Organ-Donor/page4&highlight=organ+donor but the RMs haven't updated it yet and I've been a little curious.

UPDATE: Ratty posted his reply here: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?27749-Organ-Donor&p=373381&viewfull=1#post373381

Turns out McM should read "damage" instead of Dg

Edited February 28, 2012 by Mydnight