Jewomie Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 So, i have been pouring through book three, and drooling over all the new avatars, eagerly awaiting the relase of most of them, (some that i don't even play... yet) A couple weeks ago, my girlfriend and i started proxying some of the avatars for our regular crews, and i realized something... This is the first model that i've hired that i don't get to use right away... i have to wait... i have to actually DO things in order to use the avatar. (not including the turn 6 auto manifest... but what can you really do with a single activation?) and i like that. i'm not complaining about the requirements at all. Then i noticed my play style changed... for instance, my first game with lady j's avatar. I had a stragey and a scheme... and a list of manifest requirements... can you guess which one i was more focused on? :/ :facepalm: I thought i would ask you all the question... mainly to those of you who have/use the avatars. I know they are good, i know they have their uses, and i actually want quite a few of them, but how often do you actually take them, and how do you decide when to worry about the manifest requirements, and when do you focus on the VP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 All the ones I have played have had very easy single requirements (Som'er, Seamus, and Zoraida) and I usually just spammed them out in the first or second turn so it never really interfered with how I played the game. Of those three I think I would probably connect it in most every game (possibly not with Zoraida). The Avatars change the playstyle of the master, but that's not often a problem for accomplishing schemes and strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the reply. I guess my real question isn't so much does it change the play style, and more about How often are people using them? ik now some, like Lillith, will require a different crew than some are used to, (mainly myself as i run a Nephillem crew with her, not a waldgiest crew... although i saw a really neat crew with lillith, her avatar, silurids x3 and waldgeist x2 and a tots for filler to get you to the ss required for the game... might have to try this) anyway, i went on a tangent there... but it's still somewhat relevant. I've seen that in most cases a single requirement is easy enough, but... i guess my question really boils down to, How are you guys (and gals) deciding when the points are worth it? and if you decide they are, how do you decide when the time is right to manifest? and i'm just looking for personal preference, not like... a standard that i can use... just opinions. =] thanks everyone Edited February 22, 2012 by Jewomie spelling fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I feel that competitively most Avatars are not worth bringing to a game. Specialization is what works in games like this, models that are ok at alot of things, but not excellent at others tend to get left behind for models that rock at one thing and are terrible at others. You have to spend 2 SS to attach the Avatar, and then have to burn actions during the early part of the game to Manifest, and then have to burn actions to actually manifest, the amount depending on how many qualifications you have achieved and how late the game is. Most of the time giving up the amount of actions required just doesn't give you enough return on investment. The Avatars that are most often included are the ones that make one aspect of what the master did well before and then makes them Amazing at it. These ones tend to be Avatars like Sonnia (Dmg Based Casting and Area Control), Zoraida (Card Manipulation and Casting), and Seamus (Terror and Morale). Avatars that you have to start with a different crew builds or that radically change the way the master plays tend to be ones that get left behind. Overall I like Avatars as fun playing options, but most often I'd leave them at home if playing competitively. Edited February 22, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Overall I like Avatars as fun playing options, but most often I'd leave them at home if playing competitively. Totally agree. I find myself having to sacrifice actions with my Master in order to manifest which seems self-defeating (and often, as mentioned above, a little confusing scheme/strategy wise). But I love the models and the comedy factor they bring (I'm talking Seamus and S'omer here..) so I continue to use them. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a pretty model... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skies Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I mostly agree with the competitive feeling on avatars though I really feel that's because they have not been played enough to formulate them to the strategies and schemes. There are those that are along the lines of 'Ok avatar and lose/fluff the game (ie the dreamer)' While several (Particularly the Hoffs) are great as a late game manifest when you have hopefully completed your schemes/strategy etc and who's manifest requirements are something you would accomplish with them during the course of a normal game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 and i realized something... This is the first model that i've hired that i don't get to use right away... i have to wait... i have to actually DO things in order to use the avatar. (not including the turn 6 auto manifest... but what can you really do with a single activation?) and i like that. i'm not complaining about the requirements at all. Then i noticed my play style changed... for instance, my first game with lady j's avatar. I had a stragey and a scheme... and a list of manifest requirements... can you guess which one i was more focused on? :/ :facepalm: Sort of like these were key features of their design *grin*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaJo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 While several (Particularly the Hoffs) are great as a late game manifest when you have hopefully completed your schemes/strategy etc and who's manifest requirements are something you would accomplish with them during the course of a normal game. I completely agree. As Jewomie said, we had started proxying some avatars. I took the Viks avatar and quickly realized that they were an avatar that were a late game manifest when everyone was in the center of the table or at least within her charge range. Thinking about it, there could be some objectives and schemes that would be good for their avatar to come out in the middle turns (slaughter and Viks scheme... I don't have a book on me to remember the name of it.) Then i noticed my play style changed... for instance, my first game with lady j's avatar. I had a stragey and a scheme... and a list of manifest requirements... can you guess which one i was more focused on? :/ :facepalm: I noticed this with the Viks really quickly. When I took the avatar once, Jewomie killed off Gun-toria. That left Sword-toria on the opposite side of the board of my Ronin and I found myself less focused on schemes and objectives and more focused on getting Sword-toria back so they could manifest. Maybe it will just take some more playing and experimenting to figure out what is the best balance with the avatars who seem to play like their original masters. Thankfully, the Viks avatar is just a beefed up version of their regular form, so I have less to worry about when it comes to completely different playing styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thankfully, the Viks avatar is just a beefed up version of their regular form, so I have less to worry about when it comes to completely different playing styles. But at least now there is only one... yay for the end of sisters in battle shennanagins! So, the thing that got me thinking about this was actually a post i saw about Ramos. People are building crews with the sole purpous of manifesting Ramos on the second turn. and that's all well and good and everything, except that means Ramos isn't really in the game until turn 3! that seems like more of a set back than anything to me. not to mention you're scraping your own stuff. i think something like 8 SS work of models are killed on turn 1 and no one leaves your deployment zone until turn two... With Marcus or Lillith i could be nearling inside your deployment zone before you had a chance to activate Avatar Ramos. with alpha strike crazyness i could maybe even kill him and be out of there before you got any sort of benefit from having the avatar... I will say though, i'm not sure when a good time to manifest Lady J is. She seems like a mid game change IF you have enough friendlies around her to benefit from her buff spell. But that's assuming Rebecca doesn't kill her on turn three!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaJo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I will say though, i'm not sure when a good time to manifest Lady J is. She seems like a mid game change IF you have enough friendlies around her to benefit from her buff spell. But that's assuming Rebecca doesn't kill her on turn three!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She was alone and in range of avatar Viks... and I was still bitter about you killing Gun-toria the game before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 She was alone and in range of avatar Viks... and I was still bitter about you killing Gun-toria the game before... details details.... next time i'll play Perdita.... ---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 AM ---------- i lied... i can't do it... i'll play Lillith... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastDinosaur Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, the thing that got me thinking about this was actually a post i saw about Ramos. People are building crews with the sole purpous of manifesting Ramos on the second turn. and that's all well and good and everything, except that means Ramos isn't really in the game until turn 3! that seems like more of a set back than anything to me. not to mention you're scraping your own stuff. i think something like 8 SS work of models are killed on turn 1 and no one leaves your deployment zone until turn two... With Marcus or Lillith i could be nearling inside your deployment zone before you had a chance to activate Avatar Ramos. with alpha strike crazyness i could maybe even kill him and be out of there before you got any sort of benefit from having the avatar... It works for Ramos because his Avatar is one of the strongest and one of the few that can reliably be brought out early on without really sacrificing all that much - you're not required to scrap models and his crew is free to leave his deployment zone, so not sure what you're getting at there. I don't see an alpha strike assassination run working at all unless Ramos is all by himself in the open- but any model caught in that situation is prone to whatever your enemy throws at it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) It works for Ramos because his Avatar is one of the strongest and one of the few that can reliably be brought out early on without really sacrificing all that much - you're not required to scrap models and his crew is free to leave his deployment zone, so not sure what you're getting at there. Well, i don't play Ramos, that example came from a post somewhere on here, and yes, they had you use elec fire on a Large Steampunk arachnid because you get 3 scraps for 6 ss. It's the cheepest way to get three counters, plus you kill something with electrical fire. then you summon up a spider and bam! requirements met. So while i know you aren't required to sac your own stuff... for the purpose of this build, that is how you do it. I certainly wasn't saying this was the best way, just that is how i read to get him changed on turn 2. and depending on the size of the game, sure you would have other models to leave your deployment zone and defend... i just don't *personally* like the idea of wasting two turns with a master. I do agree that his avatar is one of the better ones though. =] makes me want to add him to my Kaeris crew... ---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ---------- I don't see an alpha strike assassination run working at all unless Ramos is all by himself in the open. This works just fine by the way... i have done it before. (albeit only once.. but he wasn't alone in there, and it was a decent player.) Edited February 23, 2012 by Jewomie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 In my local area we have only seen a couple avatars really hit the table. For myself, I have only played aSonnia and aJustice so far. We have a fair number of aZoraida and aRamos hitting the table, but aKirai, aPandora, aMarcus, aRasputina, and aSomer rarely hit the table (if ever). So the original question was an opinion on avatars. I will take this in two approached: First, Avatars are set to be balanced vs Masters and Henchmen. They are set, primarily, to shift the play style of Masters in the game. Many of the Avatars will need specific crews to work best, and often those crews will be somewhat different from the "typical" crew the Master would take. hows that for a nice playtest-ish answer? So, on my experience. I can only talk about what I have seen out on the table and have direct post-release experience with. aSonnia - I include her more often than not in my Sonnia lists. She allows me to take fewer SS and brings a lot to the crew. I tend to get more use out of mSonnia's Violation spell than her Flame Burst spell so the switch to Avatar is good since it makes it easier to cast. I think the real skill with aSonnia comes in through learning when to manifest during a game. There are times when holding off a manifest helps more than manifesting immediately. Likewise, there are other games where the quicker I can get Cherufe out the better. The difference between those two types of games is not always easily determined. aJustice - aJustice changes the way I construct a crew to run with Justice. While I am not a "Lucius + Justice = Win" player, I do tend to take a spread of more expensive models with mJustice and then fill the gaps with utility cheaper models. When I am taking aJustice I move to a "swarm guild" type list that will benefit from aJustice's bubble. With that said, I am finding that aJustice is a later-game manifest (turn 4+) in most situations. She really enhances the late game for my crew to pull out a win at the end of the game. I do not see her making it into all my lists, more in line with a consideration based on opponent, opposing faction, strategy, etc. aRamos - I do not play Ramos/aRamos but face him fairly often. I do think aRamos is an early game manifest and he scares me. When he manifests I cannot ignore him and have to find a way to deal with him. aRamos is such a melee beat stick that he changes the overall game. Add to that the summoning he can do and he becomes a real game changer. He can be dealt with, but with the right flips or bad planning on my part, aRamos can dominate a game. I believe he is one of the few avatars that are worth an (all) action to manifest early. aZoraida - aZoraida's avatar is great. She does not really shift a Zoraida crew significantly, but can bring some punch to the crew during the game. I believe she is a situationtional manifest based on what your trying to get out of Zoraida during the game. aZoraida is similar to aSonnia for me in that I would almost always attach her and the skill comes in deciding when to manifest her based on the game. aPandora - I have not played her yet, but I plan to. While I love the idea, I really think that she is the most hampered of all avatars. I have been able to very simply counter her through a combination of positioning and controlling Pandora pre-manifest. If you can force Pandora to retreat to an area of the board where her immobile-after-manifest hurts her, then aPandora is really hurt. I think she might be fun, but I cannot think of a time I would attach her to a competitive list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thank you Nix, that was really informative and helped a lot. I think my biggest concern (if you can call it that... maybe hesitationi) is just simply that i haven't seen avatars in action outside of two proxied games a couple weeks ago. but i haven't seen any at my LGS. so i guess it's really just a lack of experience with them. Your post helps a lot with the thought process that i was trying to follow. haha thank you again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 First, Avatars are set to be balanced vs Masters and Henchmen. They are set, primarily, to shift the play style of Masters in the game. Many of the Avatars will need specific crews to work best, and often those crews will be somewhat different from the "typical" crew the Master would take. hows that for a nice playtest-ish answer? You forgot that they should also not be viewed as Auto-includes and that Manifestation if not geared toward turns 4-5 should directly impact the completion of Strategies/Schemes. Other than that yes it is a nice playtester-ish answer *grin* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 @Omenbringer - I felt I was forgetting something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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