Thoughts on a Seamus change

[Fetid Strumpet]

Mainly thought experiments Q. I've been playing Seamus alot more recently, and after playing Pandora and Kirai for some amount of time it just really felt like Seamus just doesn't cut it in a competitive format. Many of his abilities just flat out don't do anything at all in the current environment against a good number of crews, and he is very easy to neutralize as a threat by simply locking him in melee combat. He has nothing threatening at all to use in combat, and with a Def 4 he isn't getting away from combat very easily. He also can't effectively heal once locked in combat, as Live for Pain is a ranged attack. Add to that his SS cache is tied for lowest in the game outside of the outcasts.

I personally think that many of the issues with him are unintentional, just a consequence of the competitive environment moving so heavily away from living models.

I've used his avatar in pretty much every game I've used Seamus in since I picked it up from Gen Con, and I think the avatar is very solid, up to a point. The issues are of course that by bringing it you are effectively at a SS cache of 0, and that Seamus becomes remarkably easy to kill once he does manifest, as it only requires one nasty model to stay in melee with him to kill him.

And again this was ultimately in response to the discussions that happened around the time of Adepticon and Gen Con where it was argued that if certain masters in the game were on the higher end of the power scale then they shouldn't be cuddled, other masters in the game should be brought up to their level. So I had a thought that I mulled over and then brought to the forum wondering what the thoughts on it were. This isn't a "Seamus is underpowered omg please fix him".

I might be biased as fluff wise he is my favorite master, and whenever I play him he just never seems to do well. It could very well be just me.

Cornelious: I agree that Terrifying is just lackluster. I sort of wish that is was a little more like Irresistable or harmless, in that anytime you wanted to do something against the model with it you had to test, but given how powerful falling back is I understand why it is the way it is, especially as there are other models in the game that can hand it out, so changing the way it works is probably out as it would impact too many other models. In some ways, although I know it doesn't fit the fluff, I wish Mechanically Seamus had Pitiful or Harmless, at least then Seamus might not die to a Red Joker flip every other game he plays in.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[Kadeton]

Kadeton, not disagreeing with you, but playing devil's advocate, let me ask you a question.

You find the ability to raise a model which is a rare 1, 10 SS cost model for 1 SS, which when it dies drops almost all the parts necessary to raise it again, and can have three melee attacks on its summoning to be unproblematic, but spending 2 SS to raise a 9 SS unique model with no combat teeth, and is totally ineffective against anything immune to influence problematic?

Hmm... isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation? I'm assuming in your first example you're talking about McMourning summoning a Rogue Necromancy off a Chihuahua (I thought he also needed to kill a Canine to achieve that, but fair enough)... but when it dies, it drops three Corpse Counters, of which McM can only convert one per turn into Body Parts. Unless I'm playing his rule wrong? It seems quite specific that he can only convert 1 counter during his activation, so it will take him ages to get to the point where the Necro's raw materials are usable again... plus he needs to obtain more (not difficult, I realise). I suspect the problem is actually that McM can obtain a ridiculous number of body parts more easily and cheaply than was envisioned by the designers.

Regardless, I find that 'combat teeth' isn't a very effective way of determining the value of a model. Molly is already damn near unkillable if you want her to be, and being able to re-summon her is adding to her existing strength. I don't think repeated uses of Philosophy are really going to be a powerhouse combo. Anyway, she can have whatever teeth other models around her have... Whispered Secret makes her very flexible.

Leaving aside the Molly issue, which I will be play testing, just for fun, what are some other thoughts on how Seamus currently functions?

In the current environment, for example, many of Seamus' abilities are ineffective against the current crop of competitive models. Assuming that living models do not again become the dominate subtype in the game, would it be appropriate to relook at Seamus' living only abilities?

His - WP aura, for example, only affects living models. Living models are also the only models that are affected by his Terrifying stat, as well as his spell, The Face of Death. Assuming for a moment that at some point the game will be looked at for a new edition should some of Seamus' abilities be tweaked to affect all enemies? For example would it be fair to give Seamus' Trail of Fear the ability to affect all enemy models, and perhaps for the Face of Death to have the Anathema ability?

Again just thought experiments.

This is a problem throughout the Ressers and the game in general. There's just not enough Living models to go around, since there doesn't seem to be any sort of premium in SS cost placed on non-living characteristics like Nightmare.

In a hypothetical next edition of the game, it would be nice to see non-living models taken into account in the design of Masters who currently rely primarily on abilities that work only on Living models. Giving them other abilities that worked on non-living models as well would avoid that feeling of disappointment when you mentally cross out two thirds of the abilities on a card.

There's also surprisingly little consistency in how limitations on effects are decided. I mean, I get that Trail of Fear only works on living models because nothing else feels fear, but how do you slit a Spirit's jugular?

Giving The Face of Death an Anathema equivalent would be awesome but probably too powerful. I'd prefer to see Seamus scare the opposing player rather than his models, so I'd be happier if he was more of a legitimate threat in combat.

[Kadeton]

I'd just like to comment on a technical problem with Kadeton's rule proposition.

Technically speaking an Ability like that isn't active when the model is not in play. And the model is not in play, when it is dead.

I don't see any difference, rules-wise, between that ability and the Dead Doxy's Part of the Harem. They're both abilities which specify summoning conditions, and are in effect regardless of whether the model is in play or not.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Kadeton, as far as I'm aware McMorning can exchange Corpse Counters for BP as many times as he wants per turn, at least that's how the local player does it, and even though I don't think the ability is worded well I can't argue with it.

I sort of agree that it with you on your second points, although I'm not of the opinion that Seamus needs to be a major combat threat, I just wish that getting him in Melee didn't just pretty much take him out of the equation. I actually quite like the fluff of him as a serial killer that darts in and out of combat. Perhaps an ability to treat one of his walks as a push each round, or an ability that makes him immune to disengaging strikes. That way he could still be focused on just control based combat, making things insignificant and draining resources, but could still get free to blast something or drain lives to heal should something try to lock him down.

[Ratty]

I sort of agree that it with you on your second points, although I'm not of the opinion that Seamus needs to be a major combat threat, I just wish that getting him in Melee didn't just pretty much take him out of the equation. I actually quite like the fluff of him as a serial killer that darts in and out of combat. Perhaps an ability to treat one of his walks as a push each round, or an ability that makes him immune to disengaging strikes. That way he could still be focused on just control based combat, making things insignificant and draining resources, but could still get free to blast something or drain lives to heal should something try to lock him down.

ER... your crew is made of models that can push him out of combat. I've never had an issue getting Seamus out of combat. not to mention that your totem can swap you out of combat.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Isn't that the catch 22 though Ratty? If you take a good number of Belles you have no real teeth to actually control models by taking them out of the equation, too few and you don't always have one to look after Seamus. The copycat is very suit dependent, and maybe it's my local meta but he never survives long. Do you find that the copycat is a good investment in your games? I've never found him worthwhile as he never hits anything with his gun, and his Def is so low that he is often one shotted.

As I said my issues with Seamus might be entirely down me, or perhaps against my regular opponents who mainly play McMorning, Raspy, and The Dreamer. It just feels odd that it is worse to be in hand to hand with Raspy than it is to be with Seamus.

[Golden]

Sorry about point 2 in the other thread, I was totally off and you were correct. Onryo can still be useful against non-living in a Seamus crew because of the willpower resist spells he and his crew can use, just not for terrifying. I don't play him as often as I play Nicodem or McMourning because he is very focused on screwing with living models.

I need to RTFC more...

[Calmdown]

Isn't that the catch 22 though Ratty? If you take a good number of Belles you have no real teeth to actually control models by taking them out of the equation, too few and you don't always have one to look after Seamus. The copycat is very suit dependent, and maybe it's my local meta but he never survives long. Do you find that the copycat is a good investment in your games? I've never found him worthwhile as he never hits anything with his gun, and his Def is so low that he is often one shotted.

As I said my issues with Seamus might be entirely down me, or perhaps against my regular opponents who mainly play McMorning, Raspy, and The Dreamer. It just feels odd that it is worse to be in hand to hand with Raspy than it is to be with Seamus.

I agree with all of this. Too many Belles are a frequent Seamus player mistake. And Copycat Killer is terrible.

[Soundwave]

And Copycat Killer is terrible.

With Face of Death he's not terrible, then he's terrifying.

Thank you, I'll see myself out.

[Stonedog-7]

And Copycat Killer is terrible.

Not sure if terrible is quite the right phrase... but certainly very VERY situational

He's saved my bacon once with his switch out mechanic that i can't remember the name of and proved useful blowing up Ice Pillars in another game... but for 2SS, when he needs to focus strike with the flintlock to be effective, he's not a great pick

Yeah, most of the time i'd rather bring the Grave Spirit or just no totem, but every now and again he has his uses... and he does look awesome

[Calmdown]

With Face of Death he's not terrible, then he's terrifying.

Thank you, I'll see myself out.

/golfclap

Not sure if terrible is quite the right phrase... but certainly very VERY situational

He's saved my bacon once with his switch out mechanic that i can't remember the name of and proved useful blowing up Ice Pillars in another game... but for 2SS, when he needs to focus strike with the flintlock to be effective, he's not a great pick

Yeah, most of the time i'd rather bring the Grave Spirit or just no totem, but every now and again he has his uses... and he does look awesome

Therein lies the secret though. Just because a model can, on occasion, do something good, doesn't make it a good pick.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yeah, I really love the model, and the idea behind the Copycat. I sort of wish he had a Def 8 like the voodoo doll, then there would be a good reason to take him at times. Of course if I am wish listing, 1 higher cast and combat would be nice too. Or the mask he needs built into his cast.

Combat totems just don't work well because as Calmdown has said, you bring things to that game that are reliable and work most of the time. The Copycat doesn't have to combat to hit anything, and the only way you have a chance to is by burning a high card you probably want for something else. And even if he was any kind of threat his Def is so low that if he was any sort of danger he'd be one shotted pretty quickly.

But yes, again I do love the model

[Calmdown]

Yeah, I really love the model, and the idea behind the Copycat. I sort of wish he had a Def 8 like the voodoo doll, then there would be a good reason to take him at times. Of course if I am wish listing, 1 higher cast and combat would be nice too. Or the mask he needs built into his cast.

Combat totems just don't work well because as Calmdown has said, you bring things to that game that are reliable and work most of the time. The Copycat doesn't have to combat to hit anything, and the only way you have a chance to is by burning a high card you probably want for something else. And even if he was any kind of threat his Def is so low that if he was any sort of danger he'd be one shotted pretty quickly.

But yes, again I do love the model

I kind of imagine Seamus and the CCC getting smashed at weekends on large amounts of Guinness.

If he had no suit requirement on Mistaken Identity (or he was dual-suited, like Primordial Magic is for whatever Neverborn-get-everything-reason...) he'd be totally viable in my book.

[Stonedog-7]

If he had no suit requirement on Mistaken Identity (or he was dual-suited, like Primordial Magic is for whatever Neverborn-get-everything-reason...) he'd be totally viable in my book.

Yeah, if mistaken identity was just a shade more reliable he'd be worth it... however, for the moment he's one of the things i've intentionally left out of my Seamus re-vamp, so definitely sticking with Grave Spirit or no totem for me

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well at least the Copycat is in good company, most of the master specific totems in book one are pretty sub par competitively. Ahh well. And when I started I had practiced my leprechaun voice specifically for him.

[Calmdown]

Well at least the Copycat is in good company, most of the master specific totems in book one are pretty sub par competitively. Ahh well. And when I started I had practiced my leprechaun voice specifically for him.

Yeh. Vultures sucking so hard really upsets me. At least chihuahua and gspirit make up for it.

The best nonspecific totem in the game is in book 1 though. And look what faction its in.

[Cunning]

The best nonspecific totem in the game is in book 1 though. And look what faction its in.

Primo for the win

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agreed. I sometimes look at the Primo and really wonder about taking it with Kirai... the extra card is sooo good.

[Cornelious1424]

CCK would be worth it's points if it didn't take damage from firing its gun. I know it has a low CB, but 2 potential high damage ranged strikes a turn would solve a lot of crew selection problems that Seamus lists tend to have.

In regards to Belles, 2 is really all you need. Belle spam may have worked well prior to book 2, but I'd say it's as good as Nicodem going for massive amounts of summoning. It just doesn't cut it anymore.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Even if the CCK didn't take dmg he'd still be pretty yuck. His combat & def are too low for him to ever do anything other than get killed. If you have a high enough card in hand for him to even have a chance to hit something important, chances are you'd rather use it for something else which you will get off for certain rather than just a chance of a hit for the CCK.

I feel that being duel suited on his cast, and or having a good def, or a better Cb, or even if his mistaken Identity was like Kirai's 1 action and could just switch them he would be worth taking. I think my ideal version of him would keep his combat the same, but have a Def of 8 and his mistaken Identity to be just a (1) ability or a really easy cast. He'd probably show up in every Seamus list I took. As it is... his model is awesome but the only reason I currently take him is if I need an even easier to kill corpse counter than a dog.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[Cornelious1424]

If only he had Tiny...