Dumb Luck Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Gremlins aren't broken. Ortega Gremlins are broken....they're better and cheaper than the actual Ortega's. The LaCroix are at their best when used in tandem with the basic dudes. ASomer giving a horde of Gremlins Reckless for free? Tastey! As much as I enjoy derailing threads, perhaps we should shift the broken Greenskin chat to the relevant section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thread created!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I am so glad to have that in writing. Now to figure out the broken bits before everyone else. My brain nearly shut down with boredom when they were working it all out. I wouldn't bother really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I knew gremlins were broken when I won the GT with them, they just have bad match ups so they struggle at tourneys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I knew gremlins were broken when I won the GT with them, they just have bad match ups so they struggle at tourneys! No, that was because you cheated remember - and this is not about Gremlins like you played them, Ophelia doesn't even get a look in to what me and Ian were plotting yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 No, that was because you cheated remember - and this is not about Gremlins like you played them, Ophelia doesn't even get a look in to what me and Ian were plotting yesterday No Ophelia? I'm scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Get your Gremlin crap out of my thread now, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Calmdown, are you finding many of your initial assements of minions are holding true as you been going through this or are some things suprising you in either being more effective than they seemed on first read. Or are some things proving less useful than you initially thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Calmdown, are you finding many of your initial assements of minions are holding true as you been going through this or are some things suprising you in either being more effective than they seemed on first read. Or are some things proving less useful than you initially thought? Im finding so far that most stuff is holding true. However, Im being a little more open minded than I first intended to be (as in, my model pool still contains the whole faction and Im trying new stuff out - youll see my 4 Crooked Man game when I post the report, for example). The one thing I am convinced of that was particularly new to me a few weeks ago, is the power of Canine Remains. They're awesome, but unfortunately have a lot of bad matchups (blasts, von schill, guild) I still need more games with Nicodem too, his Mv really kills him. The avatar could be worthwhile purely for its enhanced Wk to get you to good Paralyze positions, but youre then spending 7ss for avatar and cache before you even have a list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Very intrigued to see your experiences of canines, i've found them to be far too fragile and not bringing enough (bar as an early corpse for bodyparts)... though having Nephilim as a regular opponent will do that too... add black blood to somehting canines hate with their 1" range bite and need to swarm things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Very intrigued to see your experiences of canines, i've found them to be far too fragile and not bringing enough (bar as an early corpse for bodyparts)... though having Nephilim as a regular opponent will do that too... add black blood to somehting canines hate with their 1" range bite and need to swarm things Yeh, this is their problem. They are fantastic, but there are so many things in this game that punish swarms that they have a lot of bad matchups so you have to be very careful using them. That said, I'm not particularly worried about them dying with the right master. With Nicodem in particular, it means your opponent just burned all of his blasts on killing them, or you just nibbled at some nephilim, and then they all died; Nicodem then turns them into stuff. Or Bete Noir pops out. Etc. Think of them as mobile corpse counters that do some damage or use up your opponent's resources before you use them to summon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Don't play Nicodem so getting corpse counters upfield hasn't really been called for and i've only just finished my Bete Noir conversion to really give her a run over other options... I really should get Nico and try him out too, it's not like i don't have enough rezzers (barring some Mindless zombies and maybe more than a single Punk Zombie) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Game 2 - Shared Slaughter vs Dave Brown, aSonnia Dave is a very experienced Guild player and leads the UK playtest group. He's had a lot of experience with Sonnia therefore, and knows very well how to play her. Dave was also one of the UK masters participants this year. This was going to be a tough game from the outset, purely because Rezzers are slow, Guild have guns, and Sonnia makes things explode; let alone the fact that Dave was piloting them. Dave's List: Sonnia (8ss) aSonnia 3x Witchling Stalker 2x Guild Austringer Desperate Mercenary (confirmation of this list coming...counting 26ss) My List: McMourning (8ss) Zombie Chihuahua Von Schill Canine Remains Bete Noire Sebastian I wanted to run a crew that could get near Sonnia before they were taken off the table; I also wanted to run a small list to minimise the efficiency of blasts. Bete Noire was an obvious choice, and my aim was to get *something* off the board and pop her as a distraction whilst the rest of my list moved up. Von Schill was there to provide some counter-ranged and because he's generally just awesome against spells. Sebastian I'm not a fan of, but one of the objectives of this tourney was to try new stuff; he *is* very tough for 6 points, so I figured if any thing could weather the storm of damage that would be coming my way, it was him. Importantly, he'd also have no trouble cutting up Austringers and Witchlings in 2AP (charge+melee expert) with his minimum Dg of 3 and their 6 Wd. I was really worried about this game, partly because it was such a horrible matchup, but also because of the terrain. There were only 5 large (like, 5x5" or more) pieces of terrain on the board, arranged like the spots of a 5 on a D6; Dave and his previous opponent on this table had played them as difficult ground (I think because they were gravel-looking), and they had relatively sparse Ht2 walls on them. Essentially, I had to walk my models up two corridors of fire in the open. I was pretty sure I'd lost this game before I started because of this. I debated asking Dave whether we could just play it as normal ground so that the board wasn't so static (and in fact, when I played the final me and my opponent did that) but in the end didn't bother. I took Stake a Claim and Breakthrough. Dave took Breakthrough and something I can't remember. A note before this report: I definitely had the better flips this game. We both had bad hands, Daves more so than mine, but I flipped a lot of high cards early (although the ones with Bete were to be expected, paired is amazing as always) and it had a big effect on how quickly the game ended. Turn 1 We swapped activations and stuff moved into position on either side of the central terrain piece. The left side was McMourning and his dogs (which I black jokered on and then had to burn my hand on to hit after all I flipped was low for Atk and High for Df AGAIN) facing off against an Austringer and a Stalker, and the right side was Sebastian trundling up towards Sonnia, 2 Stalkers, an Austringer and the Merc. I activated Von Schill, and double moved him from the central position I'd put him in to the right side of the objective. I took a shot at the Stalker that hadn't activated, flipped a mid-high ram (9 or something), and stoned it to get a cheatable flip, then cheated in a severe damage to hit it for 6 and oneshot it. Bete appeared, about 6" in front of Sonnia. Awesome. Distraction plan was go, and I had a 10 in my hand to save Bete. I expected Dave to activate Sonnia at this point, but he instead activated his Stalker and shot her twice, both missing. Bete then took Paralyze and charged Sonnia, doing some damage and taking her out for this turn. Turn 2 I won initiative and flurried Sonnia with Bete. I missed all 3 attacks, but Dave had to cheat and stone all of them for this to happen. Burning Sonnia's cache on melee Df is pretty awesome. The Austringers went to town on McMourning but I burned stones to stop him taking too much once he hit 7 Wd. Von Schill took two shots - one at an Austringer who he Red Jokered on damage, and then 3 damage against Sonnia's pet Witchling. Due to my terrible first turn with McM AGAIN, I had 2 BP counters, plus my dog and chihuahua. I really wanted to drop a Rogue Necromancy onto Dave's Austringer and Witchling to tie them up, but I couldn't get all the way there and do so since it would require a melee attack and a Wk to have enough corpse counters and be in range. I could have dropped the RN out of melee with his models, but I didnt fancy eating a Witchling charge or two gunshots and losing my +2 bite attacks. So, I carved up the dogs, moved, and summoned a Flesh Construct on top of them. Sonnia and the Witchling carved up Bete and Inferno'd her, forcing her to bury. Sebastian walked slowly, and wished he was faster. Turn 3 I won initiative again, and Von Schill finished off the Witchling, summoning Bete again in melee with Sonnia, who summarily inferno'd and killed her, forcing her to bury again. On the other side of the table, McMourning walked up to the Witchling and Austringer and carved them to bits. The table was now Sonnia vs my whole list. Sebastian walked slowly, and wished he was faster. Turn 4 Dave won initiative, manifested Sonnia, and did some damage to lots of stuff. I charged the Flesh Construct with Sebastian (it had advanced on Sonnia last end closing phase). Sebastian looked really happy to finally be meleeing something. The construct died and Bete popped out, before flurrying Sonnia to death. All in all I really enjoyed this game, but its easy to say that when the cards go your way. That said, I think the Von Schill/Bete combo did exactly what it needed to do; tied up Sonnia whilst I dealt with everything else. This is also a good example of why McMourning works so well; mobility, the ability to tarpit models with his summons, and lots of damage when he makes it to melee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emissary Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Did your opponent remember that if he hits Bete with Sonnia's Rune Blade she can't cast spells for the rest of the turn? Means she can't do her rebury trick when she dies. I've found that Sonnia is the worst matchup for Bete in the past for that reason. Her high DEF doesn't mean much against a model that can add with soulstones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Did your opponent remember that if he hits Bete with Sonnia's Rune Blade she can't cast spells for the rest of the turn? Means she can't do her rebury trick when she dies. I've found that Sonnia is the worst matchup for Bete in the past for that reason. Her high DEF doesn't mean much against a model that can add with soulstones. Yeah was wondering the same thing. Throwing Bete at Sonnia is really risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emissary Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Advanced counterspell and nullify magic would put an end to bete's paralyze and bury quickly too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've found that Sonnia is the worst matchup for Bete in the past for that reason. Her high DEF doesn't mean much against a model that can add with soulstones. She also doesn't like Levi. Being able to sacrifice her means she can't use slow to die to bury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Guess Dave missed a couple of tricks there, though I dont know what he was thinking. I forgot that the "no spells" on Runed Blade was on hit; I thought it was a trigger. She shouldnt have buried at her first death as she'd been hit by it. However, the likelihood is that Von Schill would have facepwned her the second she was out of melee (which is what he was standing there waiting for). Couple of counterpoints though: Advanced Counterspell doesnt work on One with the Night as it's not targeted. Discarding cards with a model with Slit Jugular and flurry in your face is not really the best of ideas. Hitting Bete with Df 7 when you've had your SS cache demolished is not easy, especially with a poor hand. I guess Dave was trying to Avatar rather than putting up Nullify Magic, which was maybe a mistake; though, if he had spent his turn killing her and removing her from the board, Sonnia would almost certainly have died instantly to Von Schill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Clausewitz Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yeah was wondering the same thing. Throwing Bete at Sonnia is really risky. I have found that Sonnia's sword is her most underutilized aspect. Whether she sets up an automatic kill for Nino or the executioner by making the opponent discard a bunch of cards, or prevents a model from casting a spell at a key moment, proper use of her sword can have a huge impact on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emissary Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Agreed I think there were 3 major mistakes made in that game: 1) not having sonnia deal with bete immediately when she manifested (this would have saved a lot of soulstones) 2) forgetting sonnia's ways to shut down one with the night 3) focusing on getting the avatar out rather then dealing with the situation he was in Just throwing up nullify magic all but guarantees one with the night is useless, even if she couldn't hit her with the sword. You are right that it doesn't affect the paralyze spell. Also, having a bad hand may have meant having a low tomes that he didn't need for something else. I'm just a little more worried that a new rezzer player will read that and think that putting bete up against sonnia is normally a good idea, when experience has taught me that it is not, especially when she has a cache of that size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I'm just a little more worried that a new rezzer player will read that and think that putting bete up against sonnia is normally a good idea, when experience has taught me that it is not, especially when she has a cache of that size. Absolutely not, throwing Bete at Sonnia was the correct move. Even in the worst case scenario, having Sonnia nuke Bete and force her to bury, Sonnia would have had to eat two shots from Von Schill next turn which is absolutely capable of killing her and at the very least taking soulstones off her. No matter how well she can nuke Bete, something over that side of the board would have been beating on Sonnia whilst McMourning tabled the other side. Even if I'd lost that whole flank (which was unlikely as Von Schill is so hard to put down), McMourning would have killed Sonnia the turn after. The point is, Bete's lack of need to move to a target and ability to stay off-board outweighed any disadvantages, due to the board setup so massively favouring Sonnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emissary Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. It may have worked out for you in that game but I don't entirely agree that it was due to what you were doing as much as it was what your opponent wasn't doing. The worst case scenario (one that would happen most often) would be for bete to appear like she did, then sonnia to kill her and not allow her to bury through her sword or nullify magic. At that point you've lost 1/3 of your minions with little effort on Sonnia's part. As you said, the board massively favored him and I don't think that spending a 2ish AP on turn 1 would swing the game that far really if the board setup was so far in his favor. Even then, you missed the point I was trying to make in the post you quoted. Namely, it may have worked out for you, but in general terms (general terms here) Sonnia Criid is one of the worst matchups for Bete Niore. Unless the stars align for her (like if Sonnia's SS pool is low and she's already activated) Sonnia will easily take care of Bete. Your battle report makes it sound like Bete is some great answer for Sonnia when she isn't. Your opponent could have ended that threat at any minute if he'd wanted to and paid attention to her stat card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Clausewitz Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Absolutely not, throwing Bete at Sonnia was the correct move. Even in the worst case scenario, having Sonnia nuke Bete and force her to bury, Sonnia would have had to eat two shots from Von Schill next turn which is absolutely capable of killing her and at the very least taking soulstones off her. No matter how well she can nuke Bete, something over that side of the board would have been beating on Sonnia whilst McMourning tabled the other side. Even if I'd lost that whole flank (which was unlikely as Von Schill is so hard to put down), McMourning would have killed Sonnia the turn after. The point is, Bete's lack of need to move to a target and ability to stay off-board outweighed any disadvantages, due to the board setup so massively favouring Sonnia. While I agree with your decision to distract Sonnia with Bete, I believe your opponent made a serious error when he chose to activate the witchling before Sonnia when Bete popped up the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Calmdown, do you find it interesting that one of the best models the Ressers can bring is an outcast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. It may have worked out for you in that game but I don't entirely agree that it was due to what you were doing as much as it was what your opponent wasn't doing. The worst case scenario (one that would happen most often) would be for bete to appear like she did, then sonnia to kill her and not allow her to bury through her sword or nullify magic. At that point you've lost 1/3 of your minions with little effort on Sonnia's part. As you said, the board massively favored him and I don't think that spending a 2ish AP on turn 1 would swing the game that far really if the board setup was so far in his favor. Even then, you missed the point I was trying to make in the post you quoted. Namely, it may have worked out for you, but in general terms (general terms here) Sonnia Criid is one of the worst matchups for Bete Niore. Unless the stars align for her (like if Sonnia's SS pool is low and she's already activated) Sonnia will easily take care of Bete. Your battle report makes it sound like Bete is some great answer for Sonnia when she isn't. Your opponent could have ended that threat at any minute if he'd wanted to and paid attention to her stat card. Yeh we'll have to agree to disagree. If Sonnia had charged Bete, she likely would have killed her but at the cost of multiple soulstones (good for me) and putting Sonnia in range of Von Schill and Sebastian, all the while McMourning was walking around unstoppable through her backline killing her dudes and summoning stuff. Regardless of her vulnerability to Sonnia, that fact that he would have been *forced* to deal with Bete and spend resources (card, ss, and AP) to do so as well as give me board position on him would have likely also given me the game. The point is, that regardless of Bete dying or not, she still would have done what she needed to do; force Sonnia into single-model targeting mode, which is optimal. There were no stars aligning, simply a very valid tactic that you seem to be ignoring as you're blinded by the fact that Sonnia is good vs Bete. I'd take the same list again against her. Calmdown, do you find it interesting that one of the best models the Ressers can bring is an outcast? I find it more sad than interesting, that the faction is forced to resort to out-of-faction resources to get access to a model with any semblance of speed. I dont like the concept of allies or mercs in any wargame really, I think if all factions are balanced and properly fleshed out then they shouldn't need it. It's a crutch game designers use imho to make balance easier (see: Nyss, Aiyana & Holt, Gorman de Wulfe etc in Warmachine too) But it is what it is. Rezzers lack both solid combat models and models with speed, and he fills both roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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