Self-Loathing damage flip

[Incarias]

Is the damage flip for the spell Self-Loathing affected by the Combat Total for the Resist Duel?

[nilus]

Is the damage flip for the spell Self-Loathing affected by the Combat Total for the Resist Duel?

Nope. Just an unmodified flip

[Fading Memory]

Unless ruled on before or I'm totally wrong....I believe it does. Part of the spell requires targeting a melee attack to give it a damage output with a weak/moderate/severe options. Once it receives the damage output, it would then be subject to the Combat Modifier. Although the damage scale is not printed outright on the spell, the spell still does damage following the damage scale.

[tadaka]

The spell is not doing any damage itself. It triggers the model hiting for a damage flip. There is no strike flip so no mod beyond the spell required neg flip. It also cant trigger the models triggers but will do built in actions such as if the hit has a built in slow. Its also not magic damage unless the model has a magical weapon.

[Fading Memory]

The difference between the casting total and the resist total counts as the combat total for any effects (such as Damage Flips) which require a combat total

All spells that cause an effect of a damage flip require a combat total.

Select 1 of the target model's basic melee weapons. Target suffers a Damage Flip with the weapon that receives . This Damage Flip cannot be cheated.

Self-Loathing is a spell that causes an effect of a Damage Flip.

Damage Flips caused by spells require a Combat Total. So why is it that Self-Loathing does not require a Combat Total?

[Wolfgar]

Not all damage flips need a combat total. Falls and Pushes into terrain hazards require damage flips for example, but do not require a combat total. Your quote really only applies to deriving a combat total for damage flips that require one. It does not state or imply all damage flips need a combat total.

That said the use of a combat total for the spell's damage flip would not be inappropriate. I can see it going both ways.

[Kadeton]

I always assumed the flip wasn't affected by the Duel totals, simply because of the different way of stating the manner in which damage is inflicted. However, I can easily see it going the other way: the lack of the "unmodified" keyword for the flip means it's certainly not cut-and-dried.

[magicpockets]

All spells that cause an effect of a damage flip require a combat total.

Self-Loathing is a spell that causes an effect of a Damage Flip.

Damage Flips caused by spells require a Combat Total. So why is it that Self-Loathing does not require a Combat Total?

Self Loathing does not cause the damage flip, the weapon causes the damage flip. Same as if I obey a model to hit someone the casting total doesn't affect the damage flip.

[Kadeton]

Self Loathing does not cause the damage flip, the weapon causes the damage flip. Same as if I obey a model to hit someone the casting total doesn't affect the damage flip.

Hmm, I don't think that's a good example, since Obey creates an entirely new Duel to affect the damage. With Self Loathing there's only one Duel, and the weapon simply determines the damage spread.

[nilus]

Well here is the spell wording

(1) Self-Loathing

(CC: 12M/Rst: Wp/Rg: 8) Select 1 of the target model’s

basic melee weapons. Target suffers a Damage Flip with

that weapon that receives . This Damage Flip cannot

be Cheated.

I think the clues here are that is doesn't reference the resist in the damage flip and it mentions the flip is uncheatable(It would be cheatable if it was based on a spell resist).

My search fu is weak but this has been ruled before and I can say with 100% certainty that Self-Loathing's damage flip is not effected by the resist duel.

[Fading Memory]

Not all damage flips need a combat total. Falls and Pushes into terrain hazards require damage flips for example, but do not require a combat total. Your quote really only applies to deriving a combat total for damage flips that require one. It does not state or imply all damage flips need a combat total.

That said the use of a combat total for the spell's damage flip would not be inappropriate. I can see it going both ways.

The quote from the rule's manual was longer. The first sentence in that section is about who won and lost the cast/resist flip, then my quote.

Pushs and falls are bad examples because falls do not have an opposed duel associated with them and are explicitly defined in the book. Its a straight flip that can't be cheated. Hazardous terain is a bad example as well. It causes a straight flip that can't be cheated and there is no opposed duel as well.

My quote is from applying the effects of spells, and Damage Flips caused by spells are effects. Falls and Hazardous terrain are not spells.

Self Loathing does not cause the damage flip, the weapon causes the damage flip.

Self-Loathing is causing the effect to make a Damage Flip; therefore subject to a Combat Modifier. The melee weapon is used to figure out how much damage is done.

Self-Loathing is the source of the Damage Flip. The spell's effect is what is causing the Pandora player to make a Damage Flip. The Rules Manual stats that any spell that causes a Damage Flip is subject to a Combat Modifier. If a spell is the source of a Damage Flip, then a Combat Modifier is needed Self-Loathing is the source of the Damage Flip.

Nilus you ninja'd me. I'll look for the ruling in a minute as well. But it is possible to get an even (with easy to wound) from Self-Loathing (without the use of a Combat Modifier) and would be cheatable. The spell is clarifying that it can't be cheated in such a situation.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Fading Memory

[Kadeton]

I did a search and came up with a bunch of threads where community members asserted that it wasn't affected by the totals, but none where the Marshals stated it. Not really taking that as evidence either way to be honest.

The reason why it states the flip cannot be cheated is so that you can't use it on a model with a weapon that receives a to damage flips (like Jady Justice) and cheat the result. That sentence doesn't indicate intention either way, in my opinion.

I also vaguely recall this being an official ruling somewhere along the line, but since neither of us can find it, perhaps another one would be in order.

[Keltheos]

Self-loathing does not use the difference in cast/resist totals to modify the Damage Flip. After the target has lost the Resist Duel the Caster makes a basic Damage Flip using the Weapon's Dg stat, , and any Ability modifiers that apply. The flip cannot be Cheated, regardless of its final fate modifier.

How's that?

[Fading Memory]

Thank You Kethloes and everyone else.

Maybe I might start winning with Pandora now. I've only won two games

[tadaka]

Pandora can lose? Jk

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Pandora can lose? Jk

That was my thoughts too

[Keltheos]

Give her to me, I'll show you how to lose with her consistently.

[Fetid Strumpet]

*blink* what are you losing to?

[nilus]

Thanks Kel for the official ruling.

And I have beat Pandora many times. Just need to bring some Ortegas to the party.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I have lost to her and lost with her only once. Ortegas are really easy to fight her, Sonia is also good against her.

Lady j is a hilarious fight. Nothing like watch her impale herself for 10. Love me some sorrows and flopped.

[tadaka]

Ortega crew jacks her up so bad. Beyond that she is a solid fight for anyone

[Foton]

So I was playing earlier. And a question came up about this ability . Rather than start a new thread, I figure I'd ask here.

I was playing her and successfully cast this spell. My opponent didn't think it would work because it was against Angelica since control cannot be changed. It never says that he loses control or that she does anything other than suffer a damage flip. What's the official ruling on this ability versus Duty.

[Kadeton]

So I was playing earlier. And a question came up about this ability . Rather than start a new thread, I figure I'd ask here.

I was playing her and successfully cast this spell. My opponent didn't think it would work because it was against Angelica since control cannot be changed. It never says that he loses control or that she does anything other than suffer a damage flip. What's the official ruling on this ability versus Duty.

Yeah, no dice on Duty stopping it. The model's controller doesn't change, they just suffer damage (albeit in an unusual way).

[Foton]

I thought that was it. Thanks!

[magicpockets]

Yeah, no dice on Duty stopping it. The model's controller doesn't change, they just suffer damage (albeit in an unusual way).

I'd disagree. The Pandora player makes the damage flip with their cards so I'd say control changes for the purpose of Duty

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Separate question open new thread will probably get you a better answer