So, Levi vs Dreamer.....

[snord]

MagicPockets, I am feeling your pain...

Had my first 2 games with Levi yesterday. First game, against Colette, 35SS. Strategy was shared slaughter.

I positioned my crew defensively, behind some buildings. First turn we proceed alternating activations, but basically:

* Cassandra starts 6" ahead of deployment zone, moves 12" up on her activation,

* Colette uses (0) to reactivate, switches with Cassandra, disappearing act on Jack Daw with tripple :books . Jack Daw is now a manequim and I am out activated.

* Colette reactivates, (0) to summon a bird behind a building where my waif was hiding, (1) to walk and get line of sight to the other waif, (1) to kill the other waif with something (I think it was tripple book disappearing act again).

* Bird magician duel/soulstone to kill the second waif.

I am done.

Second game was against Zoraida (50SS).... I did much better and won 7-4.

It was fun but clearly showed how hard it is for Levi to fight the fast book 2 masters (Colette, LCB and Kirai).

[tadaka]

Just a heads up as a levi player sooner or later you will find out collodi is an auto lose as well.

[magicpockets]

Just a heads up as a levi player sooner or later you will find out collodi is an auto lose as well.

You mean against him?

[magicpockets]

Okay, so played again against Dreamer/Collodi with Leveticus, Guardian, SS Miner and some SPAs etc. Game went better, but that was mainly due to model placement.

Second turn LCB dropped on the Guardian and killed him outright (lucky Red Joker, but he was going down anyway) and then summoned a daydream to bury LCB. This left Dreamer who Levi turned into an SPA (w00t), causing him to drop LCB, Lelu and Lilitu on Levi and one of the waifs.

Collodi came up the other side of the board and over a few turns took out the other waif, SS Miner (with defensive stance this is very hard to take down ) and the SPAs.

Game ended 8-2 to him in turn 5 (which is better) as I used a necro punk to do deliver the message on Collodi.

Overall, I can't help think that this really is a broken matchup - I'll put it out there to Wyrd to suggest a way how Levi can competitively play against Dreamer with Collodi within the remit of Gaining Ground. It's the first time (even as a Hamelin player) I've seen something that's completely broken and whilst I'm not expecting an answer, having spent £100+ on models for my new Levi crew in good faith I'd really like to hear their thoughts.

Moving forward I've just bought another Guardian and Bette to try a few new ideas, but in reality they're only practical if I know I'm playing against Dreamer, which would never happen in Gaining Ground as my opponent only has to announce Neverborn as their faction. That means I take an "anti-dreamer" crew against every Neverborn opponent or just concede the Dreamer matches.

Hum ho

[Adanedhel]

magicpockets, I feel your pain.

Only thing I could imagine though is giving Waifs use ss, but this might massively unbalance levi in other matchups

[Kael Hate]

@Magicpockets

As an experienced player of Malifaux, do you think a fixing of the Bury rules would fix Dreamer? Would the loopholing effect if gone, disable some crews? If not the Bury mechanic, what is it it that breaks dreamer? is it the 3 Daydreams?

[magicpockets]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the burying rules at the minute. The only thing I'm not sure about is the ability to unbury LCB and rebury LCB in a Daydream's activation to move up the board with the Dreamer. Might be better if they coud only be buried/unburied once per turn/activation or something - although I'd worry that would break the intent of the fluff etc.

Initial ideas could be stopping marionettes activating outside of 8" of Collodi (they could just immediately end their activation) rather than pushing to him and stopping the Dreamer/LCB/Daydream bury/unbury train. But I don't know enough about the play of either model to really say "this is how I'd fix them" for certain (unlike Hamelin say where I'm pretty sure I'd have an informed opinion of how to fix him).

(Also, guys please don't derail this thread re my suggestions above - they're very likely not practical )

[Oshova]

Making Marrionettes only able to activate within 8" of Collodi would be a bit much. Maybe causing them to be Slow. This would counter-act giving them Fast at the start of the activation. Or maybe causing them to only be able to do (0) and Walk actions. This way they can get back to Collodi and re-position for next turn. But not be able to push Collodi around, or beat face with Flurry and Melee Expert.

Also, I can see using 2 Guardians and Bette would be a good move as this would cause problems for Collodi hopping in (especially the way I do it). I usually try and place Collodi in such a way, that any marrionettes don't have to move to attack what they need to. This would mean that if Bette popped out of a dead Marrionette, it would be in base contact with Collodi. Add in Paralyzed, ++ flips (I think one of these is against undead though . . .) and Flurry. And you have yourself one neutralised Collodi. That leaves you with whatever master there is to sort out with your remaining models (Deoslation Engine?)

Edit: Just found the card (right infront of me . . . ) and you could give Collodi Slow instead of Paralyzed from Bette. Not exactly bad IMO

[tadaka]

Yes i ment playing levi vs collodi is a good way to lose as levi. Levi atm is the most bad ass mo fo on the planet or a speed bump. Just depends on whos on the other side of the fight. If they make him better to survive vs some crees he will be god for the fights he all ready does well. Imho this is the problem with the whole faction vs faction idea. You pick ai master go out and buy models they can use and you end up with lots of models from every faction but lacking the tools to play the game the way it was intended dispite having 5 crews. The game is sold encourageing cross faction sales but screws players once they start in tournament play.

[Oshova]

I find that Outcasts come out worst in tournaments, unless they are fixed list tournies (not how Malifaux was meant to be played). This is due to them having the least synergy between masters, so you're either buying lots of Hamelin models, or Viktoria models . . . etc. Whereas, with the other factions there is a lot of synergy between the different master's models. (Especially Guild).

In one off games, it's a lot more even. Especially as you usually know what you will be up against. And obvioulsy every master has bad match-ups, whether it be certain masters, minions, or objectives.

[tadaka]

Bad matchups is what makes the top masters the top masters. kirai , collette, dreamer, can al take on any other crew and do well. They have models that are harder and easyer but none of them have the rock paper issue that levi does.

[Oshova]

From talking through what Levi can do, it seems that Collodi and Dreamer seperately cause problems for him, but aren't unbeatable. But when you put them together, it is definitely Rock - Paper.

[Keegantir]

I find that Outcasts come out worst in tournaments, unless they are fixed list tournies (not how Malifaux was meant to be played). This is due to them having the least synergy between masters, so you're either buying lots of Hamelin models, or Viktoria models . . . etc. Whereas, with the other factions there is a lot of synergy between the different master's models. (Especially Guild).

I disagree on the tourney point, but agree on the synergy point.

Yes, Outcasts does not have much synergy between masters, but that does not stop you from making crews for each master, and having each of them for different strategies.

As far as tourneys go, I won my last tourney, beating good players playing both Kirai and Dreamer using just the Viks. The tourney before that I got third, losing only to a Dreamer list where the only model left alive at the end of turn 3 was LCB. Another Outcast player won that tourney using Viks, Hamelin, and Levi, all one round each. One of the advantages of using only a few crews is that you learn them very well. I know exactly what the Viks can do, where they can get to, and how to execute it.

I feel that Levi is even better than the Viks, but as has been said, he has some real bad match-ups. Due to this, I think if given the option, I would always take Hamelin or Viks against Neverborn. Hamelin is better against Dreamer, and maybe Pandora, and Viks are better against Lilith and Zorida (guessing on this last one because I have not had the chance to play against her).

[micahwc]

Due to this, I think if given the option, I would always take Hamelin or Viks against Neverborn. Hamelin is better against Dreamer, and maybe Pandora, and Viks are better against Lilith and Zorida (guessing on this last one because I have not had the chance to play against her).

I think Levi would do fine against Lilith or Zoraida. Especially a construct-heavy list which couldn't be obeyed. I suppose Lilith's speed would threaten the waifs though.

[tadaka]

Your right you can get a crew for every outcast master but the game encourages you not to. For example if you focused on grimlins the game encourages you to go zoradia next not any other outcast master. Levi works same way. Imho the faction vs faction idea is broken. I have sceen way to many players myself included who end up with all the factions and end up hamstrung in the tournament enviorment.

[Necromorph]

I would agree with the synergy point. Outcasts as a faction have little. Gremlins and Hamelin have quite a bit within their own crews, but Viks have little real synergy, the mercs can be custom made to each situation, but have little real synergy between specific models besides the Korps. Levi only has real synergy with his creations and things he can give crows to like the Ss miner and Noir.

Their strength, in tournaments, lies with the fact that your opponent never knows what's coming, because each master/crew operates completely different and need specific things to counter them. We also have one of the top 5 in Hamelin, so I wouldn't say that we come out that bad in the end.

Levi was a top master in book 1, but the rise of super fast crews (dreamer, kirai, collodi, etc) sent him down into the middle ground. Hell, any guild.crew with 2 austringers will give him a lot of trouble. So barring those 6 crews, levi stacks up quite well against the other 60% or so of crews. Now, ill admit that I haven't used him with collodi yet to see how that works out, but I'm still a bit sceptical that it will make him THAT good.

[Oshova]

Levi was a top master in book 1, but the rise of super fast crews (dreamer, kirai, collodi, etc) sent him down into the middle ground. Hell, any guild.crew with 2 austringers will give him a lot of trouble. So barring those 6 crews, levi stacks up quite well against the other 60% or so of crews. Now, ill admit that I haven't used him with collodi yet to see how that works out, but I'm still a bit sceptical that it will make him THAT good.

Ok, so let's say you're correct in saying that Levi has good match-ups against 60% of masters. You then have to look at how much those masters are played. I don't know a Guild player who doesn't use at least 1 Austringer and some other ranged stuff. A large proportion of players play the fast masters (Dreamer, Kirai, Collodi etc). So this then lowers that 60% of crews to below 50% imho.

Now I like having close/tought matches, so having good match-ups 60+% of the time would be good. But when that % drops below 50% I would be struggling to enjoy the master. No, it's not all about winning. But it is about having fun, and if that high amount of your games are going to be losses from the start, then you're going to want to avoid them. It just makes for a negative playing experience.

[Necromorph]

Agree 100%.

Most of that was from a purely competitive standpoint. If you run up against a guild crew that isn't ready for levi then it will be a good game, but yes, austringers are lame as hell. You are correct about the play experience. If the fast crews stomp all over him (as we have seen some evidence of from magic's original posts) and than you have almost an entire faction that can put him at a disadvantage from the beginning than yes, he does become a bit of a bummer to play, unless you're against one of the 13 or so masters that he can match up to. 13 still isn't bad (that number is an estimate without henchmen included), but it depends on what your playgroup is.

On collodi specifically, if.you can slow / stop the alpha, then levi can rip him apart, killing 3 dolls per.activation by himself and making SPAs out the arse. The problem is stopping that alpha strike reaching the waifs.

[snord]

Did anyone tried crooligans as a defensive model yet?

I was looking for models that could create things to obstruct LOS and it seems on a quick search that crooligans are the only ones that Levi could hire.

On the plus side, their mist can help hide the waifs and they are good objective grabbers.

On the cons side, since they are special forces, they would prevent Levi from using Collodi or the Soulstone Miner.

Thoughts?

[FancyZergling]

For competative play, I guess my best advice would be to really not take Levi where speed is a neccesity, as that is where you will see a lot of the Book 2 masters, which is Levi's weakness, when I think of fighting any Book 2 master my mind set immediatly goes from "How to complete my objectives," to "How do I keep Levi going," he really doesn't have a lot he can do against it and picking the Viks or Freak or Hamlin would be the best way to go against a Book 2 list in general.

For the original question, it's simply hard because it goes back to the speed of LCB lists and all that they are able to do, I really just think it comes down to hope you can survive the onslaught and then shred LCB to bits if you can with Levi. Depending on the points you could try to run a rider list, so that if your Levi does die you still have capable independent models and you force him to choose to take our your master or stop them from doing the objectives. Use them to play the objectives and just try to win by forcing him to chase and make choices.

As for the Crooligans, I had not even thought about that, I need to look at them (book is in the car) but it sounds fantastic.

[magicpockets]

Yes, Outcasts does not have much synergy between masters, but that does not stop you from making crews for each master, and having each of them for different strategies.

In a proper Gaining Ground tournament it does I'm afraid. You are allowed a pool of models 20ss more than the game size (i.e. a 55ss pool for 35ss games) and that doesn't leave enough scope for outcast minions for two diferent masters. That's Oshova's point about synergy, with every other faction you can take 55ss of models which will comfortably work with multiple masters, with outcasts it's one master only.

Did anyone tried crooligans as a defensive model yet?

I was looking for models that could create things to obstruct LOS and it seems on a quick search that crooligans are the only ones that Levi could hire.

On the plus side, their mist can help hide the waifs and they are good objective grabbers.

On the cons side, since they are special forces, they would prevent Levi from using Collodi or the Soulstone Miner.

Thoughts?

No real use I feel. Fast models kill stuff in melee with no charges (Collodi, LCB etc) so no help there, and Austringers ignore cover

[Oshova]

Ok, so today's thoughts on keeping Levi alive long enough to complete objectives . . .

2 Guardians protecting a Waif, in a very literal way. Placing the models so that the Waif can't be attacked. If LCB and some Nightmares are taking out Levi and a Waif. That leaves the Marrionnettes attacks to try and take down 2 Guardians and a Waif. I can't see all 5 models dieing in a turn. That means that you've got next turn to get Levi out (now next to the remnants of the Guardians) and he can pop 3 Marrionnettes. Now you've got Levi and 3 SPAs. 1 more SPA and you have a Desolation Engine to strike fear into the heart of the enemy. Plus whatever models you have standing round elsewhere on the table.

This looks like the best option atm.

Another (flimsier) option was to use Belles to push the Waifs around to give them extra movement. (Being Wk 3 is pretty rubbish) But obviously to keep the distance you would need to keep Levi alive, and if you've got a rubbish hand turn 1, then things aren't looking good for you. But you would probably be able to keep a Waif alive long enough to bring Levi back turn 3, and then strike back while the Neverborn are stranded in your deployment zone.

Just another thought, no idea how effective that would be.

[Cunning]

Remember waifs are height 1 so making use of models and terrain to hide them is also a good idea.

[magicpockets]

Tim, Collodi and my first Guardian arrived today

[Keegantir]

In a proper Gaining Ground tournament it does I'm afraid. You are allowed a pool of models 20ss more than the game size (i.e. a 55ss pool for 35ss games) and that doesn't leave enough scope for outcast minions for two diferent masters. That's Oshova's point about synergy, with every other faction you can take 55ss of models which will comfortably work with multiple masters, with outcasts it's one master only.

You are correct. I have never played in a Gaining Ground tourney, so I had not thought of it that way. Ya, as an outcast, you are stuck with one Master, while everyone else can have more than one. I think I would go with Hamelin in that situation, though I could make it work with Viks. I would not take Levi, but there are also many other Masters that I would not take.