Avatar Marcus Questions

[i_was_like_you]

Was reading through Avatar Marcus again and had a couple of questions pop out at me. I'm not sure if they've been answered on another thread yet, or not. If so, please point me in the right direction, thanks.

Manifesting vs Jackalope

Due to the Jackalope's Ability of Multiply (from book one, since I don't see a v2 version on the pdf), it'll still be able to return to play at some point later, right?

The wording in the book is:

Multiply: When a non-Jackalope Beast is killed or sacrificed, before it is removed from play, you may push this model into base contact with the Beast. If this model was previously removed from play and is currently not in play, you may summon it to the Beast before that beast is removed from play.

As other avatars, such as Colette and the Dreamer can still summon new copies of their totems after manifesting, and Leveticus still gets his Waifs, pseudo-totems that they are, I'd say the Jackalope still gets to come back. That is, if anyone even plays with it. Only one of our local players even has Marcus, so I've yet to even see him in action.

Second question, regarding Instinctive Behavior. It reads:

(1) Instinctive Behavior Target non-Master model with the Beast Characteristic receives +0/+2 Wk/Cg, -2 Df, and its melee Attack and Damage Flips receive until the start of the Start Closing Phase. Target then immediately performs a (1) Action or a Charge controlled by this model's Controller. The Action selected may not cause the model to be killed or sacrificed as part of the Action. This spell may be cast only once per activation by this model.

Now, this isn't quite the same as chess where your King cannot move into check, and there are a quite a few situations that will cause a model to be killed or sacrificed due to a (1) Action or a Charge indirectly. It doesn't preclude any of those circumstances from happening, correct?

Just a few examples:

I have any ol' non-Master model that has the Beast Characteristic, or that Marcus has given the Beast Characteristic to, while low on wounds perform a melee attack / charge on a model with Black Blood, it's still going to die from those wounds. Same goes for any other defensive damage or wound ability.

If we use a model like Desolation Engine with only one wound left, that due to Unstable Creation suffers 1 Wd when it performs any Action Costing 1 AP or more other than Pass. It'll die.

Examples like this are perfectly fine, as we're not killing or sacking the model as part of the cost of the action, right?

But with, say, the Hollow Waif's version of Magical Extension, (*) Empty Being, in which it can Cast one of Leveticus' spells. This model may use a Soulstone to change its starting total when casting this spell. Sacrifice this model, we cannot do it because it would directly kill or sacrifice it, correct?

Those were just some examples that came to mind. I'm sure there are countless others.

[Rathnard]

Im replying via my phone so i can only go into so much detail but yes - the Jackalope can indeed return via multiply after Marcus manifests.

I actually talk about exactly this on the next episode of the Aethervox.

[i_was_like_you]

Thank you.

And is Instinctive Behavior going to be on the broadcast too?

[Tograth]

Are you sure rathnard?

The jackalope says that it can return when killed or sacrificed. When masters avatar, any totems attached are specifically "removed from the game". Since Killing and Sacrificing are specific things, would this work??

[Rathnard]

And is Instinctive Behavior going to be on the broadcast too?

You'll just have the wait and see.

Instinctive behaviour is very much like the more common spell Obey, which also has the following line;

"The Action selected may not cause the model to be killed or sacrificed as part of the Action."

Now from what I understand, it means that you cannot perform an action that will definitely kill the model you're obeying. So no detonating spiders for instance. You can, however do things like charge a model with black blood while the obey'd model is on one wound, since the model will only die IF it manages to damage the black blood model. In the same sense, you can use Papa Loco's "Take ya with me!" spell if he's on 6 or less wounds, since he still needs to successfully cast the spell first.

Also, note that Marcus's Alpha spell has no such line, so you can Alpha a model to use a sacrifice action on itself if you wanted.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Rathnard

[Rathnard]

Are you sure rathnard?

The jackalope says that it can return when killed or sacrificed. When masters avatar, any totems attached are specifically "removed from the game". Since Killing and Sacrificing are specific things, would this work??

Yep.

You're not quite right in saying that the Jackalope can return when killed or sacrificed. Multiply specifically states that the Jackalope can return if it was specifically "removed from play and is currently not in play".

Pg 13 of the rulebook states that killed or sacrificed models are removed from play and removed from the game (as opposed to buried models, which are still in the game, but removed from play).

So whether a Jackalope is removed from the game via the manifest, or removed from the game by being killed/sacrificed, it still exists in the same "removed from game" space. Therefore, there shouldn't be anything stopping the Jackalope from returning via it's Multiply talent after Marcus has manifested.

[Tograth]

Ah, I see where I was getting confused. cool. Makes him even more ossum now!

[i_was_like_you]

That's specifically why I'd asked. It sounded right, but I hadn't found the Rules Manual wording for it.

As far as Obey / Instinctive Behavior, thank you. Also thanks for the extra possibilities for Alpha. I'll be sure to mention that to our Marcus player...And make sure that people who are shopping for me for the holidays know that Marcus is on my list of wants. I've been wanting to get him just to go with a paint scheme I saw on an Absolut ad, but the more I read about him, the better I'm liking him.