Haunting melody trigger and immune to influence

[mcmourning san]

So my friend and I were playing a game the other day and I attempted to hit Teddy with a haunting melody trigger off of pipes in order to go around his immune to influence ability as I have read on the forums, but when he asked me why and how it worked I had no idea ! So with that can another more experienced player please explain how this trigger gets around immune to influence?

[magicpockets]

Okay...

Immune to Influence only prevents duels where you are the defender, aka "opposed duels" (suc as spell resists) which typically look like Ca->WP or WP->WP.

With Haunting Melody you shoot the target and then they have to win a "simple duel" (i.e. WP->#) against your combat total to resist. This makes them an attacker and I2I does not prevent WP duels when you are the attacker. That's why harmless, terrifying, pitiful and haunting melody all affect I2I models.

Hope that helps, but if you need more clarification etc just ask mate

Edited November 26, 2011 by magicpockets

[mcmourning san]

Thank you pockets, the ruling is becoming clearer, since I am a new player I was just hoping I could ask one more question. How is it that Teddy would become an attacker after being attacked and what does "simple duel" mean?

[Ozz]

Ok i failed to say what is on the post below me

Edited November 26, 2011 by Ozz

[Kael Hate]

Thank you pockets, the ruling is becoming clearer, since I am a new player I was just hoping I could ask one more question. How is it that Teddy would become an attacker after being attacked and what does "simple duel" mean?

A simple duel is when the target number is not generated by a flip+Value but instead by a preset value. Ie Terrifying 13. The value is pre set and not defended by someone.

This is also why teddy becomes the attacker. The defender is the pre-set value and Teddy is making the Flip.

[magicpockets]

Yeah, to build on that^^

A simple duel is vs a target number, i.e. wp->13 and only has an attacker

An opposed duel is vs a flipped number i.e. wp->wp and has an attacker and a defender

Immune to Influence only works when you're the defender

In a simple duel the attacker has to equal or beat the target number to win

In an opposed duel the attacker has to equal or beat the defenders total to win

In this case, to shoot with pipes is an opposed duel as your Cb total is against the opponents Df total (Cb->Df)

If you win, with Haunting melody your opponent has to win a duel against your combat total. As this is now "set" rather than flipped for, he becomes the attacker in a simple duel.

Here's an example

1. Hamelin shoots Bad JuJu who has I2I and needs to win a Cb->Df duel

2. Hamelin's Pipes has a Cb of 6 (iirc) and he flips an 8 giving him 14

3. Juju has Df 3 (iirc) and he flips a 12 giving him 15

4. At the minute Hamelin is losing 14->15

5. Hamelin cheats in a 13:masks and adds a ss for another 6 giving him 6+13+6 = 25

6. JuJu gives up as he can't beat the total and loses 25->15

7. Hamelin makes a straight damage flip against JuJu

Now Haunting Melody is Resolved -

8. Hamelin's combat total was 25

9. Bad JuJu must win a wp->25 duel or gain insignificant. This is now a simple duel as it is just Bad JuJu attacking a set number and as I2I only works when you're the defender it offers no protection.

Hope that helps mate

[Joooohan]

Well I disagree, I think that this is Ham-lame players taking advantage of awkward wording. I think its ridiculous that pipes is able to "go around" immune to influence.

[magicpockets]

^^ Wow, ultimate thread necro trolling skillz.

And biting the bait, it's not "awkward" wording, it explicitly sets out how the duel works which is how I've set it out above. Let me guess, you've been on the receiving end of it with an I2I model and you don't like it? Hell, are you the guy the OP refers to?

[Serigala]

So can this get Perdita too? I can't remember how her card is worded.

[Mike3838]

Yea Perdita just has standard I2I. Her Ortega crew wouldn't get the benefit of Stubborn in the duel either. She's of course a bit more resistant to the trigger though by virtue of having WP equal to Hamelin's CA and Use Soulstone.

Mike

[Wolfgar]

Spell resists aren't opposed duels though. They are simple duels against the caster's casting total. If this is supposed to work like above then any Spells targeting WP to resist wouldn't count for Immune to Influence either.

I don't think it's a matter of attacking a number. The flip is to resist an effect; I'm pretty sure that makes you a defender simple flip or no.

[nilus]

Spell resists are a bit of an exception. They are technically two simple duels but for the sake of who is defender the person resisting is.

Perdita is affected as well since she has immune to influence like everyone else. The Perdita exception comes in for things like harmless, terrifying and Pandora because her other ability(see the unseen) gets around those defenses.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Rm is clear spells with a generated target number are not a simple duel. At a glance spells seem to generate a simple duel, but most spells generate resist duels that have clearly defined attackers and defenders.

Also hamelins ability was clearly given to him to by pass i2i. Since it is a simple duel it isn't that hard to resist since it is usually cheatable unless nix is around.

[magicpockets]

Since it is a simple duel it isn't that hard to resist since it is usually cheatable unless nix is around.

That's why Hamelin takes soulstones...

[Wolfgar]

Rm is clear spells with a generated target number are not a simple duel.

Which is odd, sine the book says "A model can perform a simple Resist Duel (stat -> caster's casting total) if it is affected by a successfully cast Spell". So that would be clearly the opposite of what the rules actually say, which I don't think is the RM's purpose.

At a glance spells seem to generate a simple duel, but most spells generate resist duels that have clearly defined attackers and defenders.

They have clear defenders and attackers because being an attacker or defender is contingent upon being the target of action initiated by an opposing model, not by virtue of being in opposed duel.

[Sandwich]

Well I disagree, I think that this is Ham-lame players taking advantage of awkward wording. I think its ridiculous that pipes is able to "go around" immune to influence.

While you're correct in that there is a large amount of Hair Splitting for a lot of rules, (See the war of the Voracious Rats, circa 2010) this one is actually very clear.

Immune to Influence is designed in a way that stops spells, but not other effects which use the Wp stat.

The original incarnation of Haunting Melody was Terrifying and Morale Duels, but as of Rising Powers (and a few specific cases in the first book) it's expanded to a fairly large amount of Actions and Spells.

- - - -

I understand the frustration as Hamelin is already fairly overwhelming but understand that Bully, and in extent, Haunting Melodies, is the lynch pin of his survival.

If he had to rely on solely (1)Understand the Soulless to keep things from killing him and his Catchers, there'd be way too many models that could just run in and murder him without batting an eye.

- - - -

A couple of counter play techniques would be to use Terrain advantageously or engage him with a strong model early on so that your I2I model can't be targeted with his Pipes, he can't fire out of melee.

[Q'iq'el]

Which is odd, sine the book says "A model can perform a simple Resist Duel (stat -> caster's casting total) if it is affected by a successfully cast Spell". So that would be clearly the opposite of what the rules actually say, which I don't think is the RM's purpose.

Casting Duels are complex. This is the least that can be said.

Ca->CC and Resist duels are both simple duels, but Resist Duel is an exceptional case in that it still has a defender (not attacker) and in that it takes TN from the result of the previous Duel. Then, for example, the model beats a Simple Duel if it matches or beats the TN, but it loses Resist Duel on a match and wins only if it beats the TN (page 54).

I think it was clarified in the past, that even though both sides of the Casting Duel are simple duels, the whole counts as an opposed duel. That clarification was before the RM times though, if I remember correctly and may be the reason for confusion (as there is nothing like that in the RM now).

Personally I think this distinction, in this case, is obsolete now. It makes no difference if the Duel is Opposed or Simple, as the precise rules for the Casting Duel already introduce all the exceptions and attacker/defender thing is determined independently from the type of the duel.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Wolfgar]

Personally I think this distinction, in this case, is obsolete now. It makes no different if the Duel is Opposed or Simple, as the precise rules for the Casting Duel already introduce all the exceptions and attacker/defender thing is determined independently from the type of the duel.

Yeah. The attacker/defender thing doesn't mention being duel type specific, only that the attacker/actor/acting model is the one taking the Action, and since the defending flip isn't an action it doesn't make him an attacker.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This all sounds like overthinking it

[Oshova]

So basically . . . Haunting Melody gets round Immune to Influence, which makes sense as it's not influencing the model to do something (like Lure or Obey), it is just telling the model they are insignificant.

[Wolfgar]

I'm still not sure it does, honestly, because I still can't see the supporting argument.

[magicpockets]

It's explained crystal clear on page one in my post.

[Wolfgar]

Immune to Influence only prevents duels where you are the defender, aka "opposed duels" (such as spell resists) which typically look like Ca->WP or WP->WP.

Except that you don't have to be in an opposed duel to be defending. Defending is defined as being the target of an Action, not by the type of duel you are in.

With Haunting Melody you shoot the target and then they have to win a "simple duel" (i.e. WP->#) against your combat total to resist. This makes them an attacker and I2I does not prevent WP duels when you are the attacker.

No, it doesn't. You do not "attack" a target number. You are still defending against the effect, making you a defender, whether it is a simple duel or an opposed one. Duel type does not determine attacking or defending.

That's why harmless, terrifying, pitiful and haunting melody all affect I2I models.

Harmless, Terrifying, and Pitiful affect a model taking action, which is why you are an attacker in those cases. Overcoming them is a prerequisite for taking your intended action. Overcoming or resisting Haunting Melody is not a prerequisite for your own action, it's a straight up resistance duel against it.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm with Wolfgar on this one. The rules seem to have changed quite dramatically when it comes to attacker/defender distinction - the type of Duel is not relevant anymore. See page 18, Attacks section.

It is perfectly possible to do a Simple Duel and be a defender as long as the model in question is either a direct target or a model affected by anything falling under Attack category (fulfilling any of the requirements outlined on the page 18).

So all we have to do to determine if Immune to Influence protects from Hamelin's Haunting Melody is to check if it is an Attack or not...

...and it gets somewhat blurry, because it's a Trigger. A Trigger which is assigned to a weapon and part of a attack with Pipes.

I'd consider the Trigger a part of a Ranged Strike Duel (see page 42), so an Attack, so the target does get the defender status. I'm not sure if the wording is clear enough for the page 18 to be conclusive, though.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Necromorph]

Been a while since I've seen this post, but hey...

Wolfgar, you say you are the defender when targeted by an action. A trigger, especially in this case is an aditional effect that may result from losing the duel against the initial action, assuming the appropriate suits have been met. Teddy, in the example, is the defender of a pipes strike, he failed the resist, and suffers damage, in addition, he mush pass this duel. Hamelin did not Target him with the duel, he targeted him with his pipes and the duel is a side effect.