Pandora's Pacify and Pitiful

[snord]

Hi, again couldn't find an answer, so here we go:

Pandora is within range and line of sight of a pitiful Kirai:

Question 1: Pandora declares she will cast pacify on Kirai, but because Kirai is pitiful, she has to make a WP check. Pandora succeeds on the WP check and because of Fading Memory, she pushes 4" to behind a building, losing the Line of Sight to Kirai. Does Pacify still happen, since it was already declared against a valid target, of fails because the target is no longer in line of sight?

Question 2: Pandora declares she will cast pacify on Kirai that has already taken 7 wounds. Because Kirai is pitiful, she has to make a WP check. Pandora succeeds on the WP check and because of that, Kirai takes a wound and dies. Can Pandora still cast another Pacify at another target in the same turn, or she can't because the Pacify WP duel did not happened?

Pacify reads:

(0) Pacify: Target enemy model unaffected by Incite or Pacify

within 12” performs a Wp Wp Duel with this model. If

the target model loses, it must activate after any other

model in its Crew which as not been affected by Pacify. If

this model wins the WpDuel, it may choose to take the

Pacify Action again this activation.

Thanks.

[Adran]

My Take on them is

Question 1

When you declare the target, is when you check for range and line of sight. Her moving doesn't change that original check.

Question 2

Since Kirai dies before you make the pacify test, you canm not make the tet, and so the action fails, and the chain ends

[Cunning]

I disagree. Until after the Pitful test has passed you aren't targeting Kirai. So it would go: Attempt to Target, Take pitful test, Push on success, now target.

[Asphyxxious]

I'm pretty sure Adran is right here.. but one thing I am not sure of is about question one

Pg 14 says

Declaring a Target

First, check that the item in question is in the targeting model's LoS. (confirmed)

Then, check for any special situations that may allow or prevent the item to be targeted. (does pitiful count here?)

Finally, check for Talents/Spells that may allow/prevent targeting. (pitiful)

So going down the list you have not yet confirmed Kirai as a legal target because of pitiful. Does that mean that after taking the pitiful test you have to go back through the list to confirm again since she was not a legal target yet? If so it would fail due to the first point of LoS. Or when you get to that point do you just take the pitiful test and call it good?

I could see that being a possible issue

On question 2 he is right for sure. The chain breaks

[Asphyxxious]

I disagree. Until after the Pitful test has passed you aren't targeting Kirai. So it would go: Attempt to Target, Take pitful test, Push on success, now target.

Lol beat me to it. Pretty much the same thing I was thinking. Only thing I am not sure on is in the point I made above. It says

FIRST check LoS.

THEN...

FINALLY...

So I am not sure if once you check for LoS that part is just confirmed and you move on or if you have to re check the list due to taking the pitiful test

[snord]

My understanding is the same as Adran.

@CunningStunt, I think the problem in your reasoning:

So it would go: Attempt to Target, Take pitful test, Push on success, now target.

is that if the Pitiful check fails, it ends the originating action as a failure, what implies the target was chosen before the check. Pitiful (and Harmless and similar abilities) says "when targeting the model".

But again, I can see multiple interpretations and that is the reason for my questions.

[NBmaster]

It is my understanding that the push dosn't have to take place right away, in fact I am under the impression that pushes can be done at anytime during her activation at her descression. Please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't Pandora finish the pacify duel then take the push, as she would also get 4 inches of push from winning the pacify duel thus being able to push up to 8 inches if she so desires, or push 4 cast pacify again, win the duel then push 8 inches or 4 or whatever she wants.

[Cunning]

My understanding is the same as Adran.

@CunningStunt, I think the problem in your reasoning:

is that if the Pitiful check fails, it ends the originating action as a failure, what implies the target was chosen before the check. Pitiful (and Harmless and similar abilities) says "when targeting the model".

But again, I can see multiple interpretations and that is the reason for my questions.

The target has been chosen but until Pitiful has succeeded you haven't ascertained whether she is a valid target. Pitiful would be the first thing you do before any other steps of the targetting process as far as I'm aware.

It is my understanding that the push dosn't have to take place right away, in fact I am under the impression that pushes can be done at anytime during her activation at her descression.

Not sure where you've got that from. As soon as she succeeds a willpower test she can push if she wants. You don't have to do it but if you want to you have to do it straight away.

[NBmaster]

I am pretty sure I came to that understandnding by reading Karn's Pandora tactica.

[Cunning]

I am pretty sure I came to that understandnding by reading Karn's Pandora tactica.

Karn's tactica is out of date and needs updating.

Fading Memory says:

Whenever this model wins a WP duel, Push this model 4" in any direction

Whenever means that it happens when she wins the Wp test. Otherwise how would it work when she wins outside of her activation? Would you have to wait until she activates next?

[Adran]

Pandora can take a push when she wins a wp duel. She has to pick at the point of winnign the willpowerdual if she wants to push or not, and then push. She can't save it for later.

She decides to pacify Kirai. She wins the Pitiful duel, so she gets a push. It must be taken at this point. She Pacifies Kirai, and so wins a willpower duel, thus can push again. She must do so before doing anything else.

Later in her turn she walks and then decided to pacify something else, she does so, once again winning a willpower duel so gets another push.

Each push has to be taken just after she wins the duel, before doing anything else.

I couldn't say what Karn wrote in his pandora Tactica, but I think you have misunderstood it.

With regards to question 1

Looking at page 14, the first part of targetting is checking for line of sight. The pitiful test is after that, so you would have already made the check. You haven't yet checked for range, so if the push has moved her further than 6" away, the pacify will fail.

You may be right about constantly having to check for line of sight, the last line of page 14 does go

If the target is within the effects range and meets the above requirements, it is considered a legal target of the effect.

But my gut says you tick the box on each once for each attempt, so once the line of sight is ticked, you don't go back and re-check, even if she has moved.

[karn987]

I am pretty sure I came to that understandnding by reading Karn's Pandora tactica.

Honestly not sure how you got that from my Tactica... I don't reference it in that way during any point in it to the best of my knowledge. Please PM with with the a quote for the section that gives you this impression and I'll make sure to add that to my list. Don't want people mixing this up.

But I know for a fact, that is not how I stated it can be done.. .I think you just missunderstood something. It happens though.

On the OP. I believe Adran is 100% spot on with both. Especially for the LOS bit. You've already well passed the point where you check for LoS when Fading Memory would come into play. So you could push out of LoS after winning the Pitiful Duel and then resolve Pacify/Incite.

[Cunning]

@Adran

I can see what you're saying but it seems strange that the pacifying itself happens when she can no longer see her target.

Definitely one for the RMs I'd say

[karn987]

@Adran

I can see what you're saying but it seems strange that the pacifying itself happens when she can no longer see her target.

Definitely one for the RMs I'd say

Well look at the break down again.

Action: Pacify

--Declare Target

----Check if target is legal

------Target is in LoS

------Target is in Range

------Apply on Target effects: Pitiful (ie things that could stop it from being a legal target)

--------Pitiful Duel happens

----------Pandora Wins

------------Emotional Trauma happens

--------------Kirai suffers 1 Wd

------------Fading Memory happens

--------------Pandora Pushes 4"

--------No other effects to stop targeting

------Target is a legal target

--Pacify then begins to resolved

----Make Wp Duels

---- etc etc.

Basically because it has to be a legal target for Pitiful to even come into play and there is no wording at all to support the idea it goes back to check targeting again.... it works.

I do agree, a Marshall settling this will be good as it sets a precidence to for this kind of thing. This appears a few times in the game in various forms, but it comes back to the same basic question... if your performing an action that requires a legal target and you've passed the targeting part of resolving the action, do you go back and check target ever again for any reason?

Edited November 8, 2011 by karn987

[Lucidicide]

Well look at the break down again.

Action: Pacify

--Declare Target

----Check if target is legal

------Target is in LoS

------Target is in Range

------Apply on Target effects: Pitiful (ie things that could stop it from being a legal target)

--------Pitiful Duel happens

----------Pandora Wins

------------Emotional Trauma happens

--------------Kirai suffers 1 Wd

------------Fading Memory happens

--------------Pandora Pushes 4"

--------No other effects to stop targeting

------Target is a legal target

--Pacify then begins to resolved

----Make Wp Duels

---- etc etc.

Basically because it has to be a legal target for Pitiful to even come into play and there is no wording at all to support the idea it goes back to check targeting again.... it works

Seems correct to me!

[NBmaster]

Not sure where I picked that up thought it could have been the tactica I guess not. Thats why I said correct me if i'm wrong. maybe we just played it that way so the los issue didn't come up. But now I know you dont need to draw los after the push if you had los before the push happens so it's all good.

[Adran]

Well look at the break down again.

Action: Pacify

--Declare Target

----Check if target is legal

------Target is in LoS

------Target is in Range

------Apply on Target effects: Pitiful (ie things that could stop it from being a legal target)

--------Pitiful Duel happens

----------Pandora Wins

------------Emotional Trauma happens

--------------Kirai suffers 1 Wd

------------Fading Memory happens

--------------Pandora Pushes 4"

--------No other effects to stop targeting

------Target is a legal target

--Pacify then begins to resolved

----Make Wp Duels

---- etc etc.

Action: Pacify

--Declare Target

----Check if target is legal

------Target is in LoS

------Apply on Target effects: Pitiful (ie things that could stop it from being a legal target)

--------Pitiful Duel happens

----------Pandora Wins

------------Emotional Trauma happens

--------------Kirai suffers 1 Wd

------------Fading Memory happens

--------------Pandora Pushes 4"

--------No other effects to stop targeting

-----Check Range

------Target is a legal target

--Pacify then begins to resolved

----Make Wp Duels

---- etc etc.

I think you've got the range checking at the wrong time, according to page 14 that happens after pitiful duels etc.

Otherwise it seems right

[karn987]

Action: Pacify

--Declare Target

----Check if target is legal

------Target is in LoS

------Apply on Target effects: Pitiful (ie things that could stop it from being a legal target)

--------Pitiful Duel happens

----------Pandora Wins

------------Emotional Trauma happens

--------------Kirai suffers 1 Wd

------------Fading Memory happens

--------------Pandora Pushes 4"

--------No other effects to stop targeting

-----Check Range

------Target is a legal target

--Pacify then begins to resolved

----Make Wp Duels

---- etc etc.

I think you've got the range checking at the wrong time, according to page 14 that happens after pitiful duels etc.

Otherwise it seems right

That's what I get working from memory heh.

But that does mean that you can get out of the LoS bit, but you must still have range for Pacity/Incite after the Fading Memory push.

[Cunning]

That's what I get working from memory heh.

But that does mean that you can get out of the LoS bit, but you must still have range for Pacity/Incite after the Fading Memory push.

Wouldn't that mean you could be put of range when you declare the action but then be within range after the push and it would suceed?

Nice tactic to know.

[gnam]

Wouldn't that mean you could be put of range when you declare the action but then be within range after the push and it would suceed?

Nice tactic to know.

So, in theory a Demetia'd Pandora could target a Harmless/Pitiful model with Pacify even if she is 20" away from them, and if she wins both duels she could move 8" and be in range to Pacify the model?

That's pretty interesting if it's correct.

[Cunning]

So, in theory a Demetia'd Pandora could target a Harmless/Pitiful model with Pacify even if she is 20" away from them, and if she wins both duels she could move 8" and be in range to Pacify the model?

That's pretty interesting if it's correct.

As long as the target was in LoS.

[karn987]

So, in theory a Demetia'd Pandora could target a Harmless/Pitiful model with Pacify even if she is 20" away from them, and if she wins both duels she could move 8" and be in range to Pacify the model?

That's pretty interesting if it's correct.

Yeah... a bit odd, but it seems to work by the way you progress through the various effects. You'd check for Dementia first, then Los, then Pitiful, and then the range for Pacify/Incite... so yeah, 2 Pushes from fading Memory before you measure range from the looks of it..

[magicpockets]

Neverborn are br...... *banned*