Intentionally walking off a building?

[Valcurdra]

Can you continue to move after deliberately falling of the edge of a building?

I found the rules for doing this (rules manual pg. 48) a little foggy. The rules state after chosing to walk off the edge the model is placed at the base of the terrain and takes a damage flip. What happens after that is not really stated.

1. Does my current move action end there? Or do I get to finish my walk action and spend any remaining inches of movement?

2. After taking damage can I continue the rest of my activation as normal? Taking further move actions if I please?

Anyone clarification would be greatly appreciated.

[Calmdown]

With the introduction of the proper Elevated terrain characteristic in the Rules Manual, together with small changes to all the relevant rules (los, measuring etc) it pretty much works in 3D now.

LoS rules allow for measuring line of sight in 3D and Measurement rules are now explicitly base to base, so 3D too. And "any direction" in the movement rules does cover up and down as well, as far as I'm concerned,

You make good points. I'd never interpreted those parts of the rulebook that do essentially now tell us to measure in 3D ("base to base"), now that you mention it.

However, I think in the case of falling in particular, you can't be sure that either interpretation is right. Under your interpretation, the model stops floating in midair. It shouldn't get to finish its "fall" any more than it should get to finish its Walk if my interpretation is right.

This is one for the Marshals.

[Lucidicide]

So what about this thread?

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23896

Ratty very specifically says not to do diagonals, and that distance is measured horizontally. I may be reading it wrong, but it says that you only use vertical distance for climbing, Ht, and melee.

[Calmdown]

So what about this thread?

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23896

Ratty very specifically says not to do diagonals, and that distance is measured horizontally. I may be reading it wrong, but it says that you only use vertical distance for climbing, Ht, and melee.

Yep, that's the only way I've ever seen it ruled or called.

But Q is right, when you read the rules manual back, it does very specifically say base to base and I cant see anywhere where it says "ignore verticals" even though that's how (most|all) of us play it (and how I was taught). Maybe it's there somewhere and we're missing it?

[Lucidicide]

Yep, that's the only way I've ever seen it ruled or called.

But Q is right, when you read the rules manual back, it does very specifically say base to base and I cant see anywhere where it says "ignore verticals" even though that's how (most|all) of us play it (and how I was taught). Maybe it's there somewhere and we're missing it?

I certainly see the argument. Although I don't like the idea of measuring the vertical distance, that matters little. And there are certainly rules to back up what he's saying... but there is a RM who seems to be saying otherwise. And if I already needed to be convinced and I have a RM who seems to be saying it goes that way we've been playing it, there is a great burden of proof than I think has been presented so far.

[Valcurdra]

Wow this thread is going in a different direction than what I intended. I'm really surprised by that ruling that you don't measure diagonals. That makes walking up a sloped terrain just as fast as flat terrain which seems odd but whatever.

In regards to my original question about falling I scoured the rules manual on this and and found what I think is the answer on page 6 in the timing section. "If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused."

In this case I would argue walking off a cliff triggers the effect of falling thereby pausing the walk action. Falling is then resolved by placing the model at the bottom building and flipping for damage. Then the walk action continues where it was paused allowing you to use any movement you have remaining.

That seems pretty iron clad to me now. What you guys think?

[Mr_Smigs]

Wow this thread is going in a different direction than what I intended. I'm really surprised by that ruling that you don't measure diagonals. That makes walking up a sloped terrain just as fast as flat terrain which seems odd but whatever.

faster actually.

your horizontal distance will be constant, which means a ramp will GAIN you inches you otherwise wouldn't have had...

for example, a 3" tall ramp, 4" long... would have once taken 5" to move to the top (Diagonal movement)

but

since you only care about the 4" long, you get 3" of climb for free, and gain an inch of movement...

totally taking my TI-83 and a protractor to the next tourney...

[Akujie]

At some point complexity needs to be removed. If there is issue with a ramp giving movement, make it severe terrain and walla issue solved for the most part.

[Valcurdra]

At some point complexity needs to be removed. If there is issue with a ramp giving movement, make it severe terrain and walla issue solved for the most part.

That is a good idea I agree.

[Q'iq'el]

At some point complexity needs to be removed. If there is issue with a ramp giving movement, make it severe terrain and walla issue solved for the most part.

Do you consider it a simpler solution that measuring diagonally?

[Akujie]

@Q: When you put it like that its a little silly as an idea. But i mean flight in this game doesn't take height into effect, I can fly over something 260 inches high in the middle of the map as long as i can move my 4-6 inches (average model movement). And then land on the other side. By the falling costs movement logic, then flying over something would cost movement (your still moving in directions) or if we go with flying allows you to ignore terrain, then take in that you can still land on it (as long as its not impassible), so if you landed on something higher would you then have to pay for the movement up it (or if you flew down)?

I know when i measure i measure from an above veiw, and that sames pretty standard with the people i game with. placing tape on the board next to your model and measuring up a slope is doable, but takes a little extra time (lets say 3-6 seconds per move) and is harder to do with other models around your own and with terrain. Now is that very slight inconvience worth it? Thats the individuals call, my point was that Wyrd has rules in place already that make it so you can make more realistic gaming even in a fully sanctioned tourney settings if you want. Is it odd that i can shoot at anything within 10inches of perdita (in LOS) whether on an even plane or 362 inches in the air? Yes. Does it make a simple measurement rule (always measure from above essentially)? Yes. Chalk it up to Opportunity cost I suppose. The game has som many good complexities (love the cover system for example) but at some point all those 3-6 second complexities turn a good 45-60 minute game into a 3 - 4 hr game.

[Mr_Smigs]

ah, but by the "horizontal is convenient" logic...

a model atop a 36" tower (because of flight) is still targetable by a model with a 10" range....

is that really the intent of the game?

[Valcurdra]

Guys please stop hijacking this thread with arguments about measuring diagonally. As pointed out above it has already been ruled by the marshals that you don't measure distance this way.

What I was trying to determine in this thread is if you keep moving after taking falling damage. There still doesn't seem to be a clear answer on that.

In regards to my original question about falling I scoured the rules manual on this and and found what I think is the answer on page 6 in the timing section. "If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused."

In this case I would argue walking off a cliff triggers the effect of falling thereby pausing the walk action. Falling is then resolved by placing the model at the bottom building and flipping for damage. Then the walk action continues where it was paused allowing you to use any movement you have remaining.

Is this the correct interpretation or am I missing something else?

[Mr_Smigs]

Is this the correct interpretation or am I missing something else?

the part under Place Effects (which is what falling is) that end other movement effects (like Walking)

[Valcurdra]

the part under Place Effects (which is what falling is) that end other movement effects (like Walking)

Ah I see.

Rules manual page 38. "When a model is placed at a new location, effects limiting the distance it may move immediately end"

So that means the movement effect of your walk action ends as soon as you are placed? That wording is really confusing but I guess you could be right.

[Mr_Smigs]

Ah I see.

Rules manual page 38. "When a model is placed at a new location, effects limiting the distance it may move immediately end"

So that means the movement effect of your walk action ends as soon as you are placed? That wording is really confusing but I guess you could be right.

sadly, it's the only way reading it would work within the rules (that I can see at 6am)

otherwise, the "limiting" effect of Walk (the part that says you can only move your Wk on your card) is the part that ends when you're placed,

leaving the model still in the middle of a Walk action, with no limit to how far it can go...

somehow, I don't see jumping off a building as justification for a model becoming The Flash...

[Q'iq'el]

Walk action causes a movement effect, but I don't think the movement effect itself is an effect limiting the movement distance (the action simply allows movement up to the Wk stat value - limit is not imposed by the effect, but the result of the model's own stats).

An example of effect limiting the movement distance would be Waldgeist's Entangle. If you somehow cause the affected model to be placed (Showgirls' teleportation for example), the Entangle would immediately end.

[Mr_Smigs]

Walk action causes a movement effect, but I don't think the movement effect itself is an effect limiting the movement distance (the action simply allows movement up to the Wk stat value - limit is not imposed by the effect, but the result of the model's own stats).

An example of effect limiting the movement distance would be Waldgeist's Entangle. If you somehow cause the affected model to be placed (Showgirls' teleportation for example), the Entangle would immediately end.

therein lies the question.

is the fact that the Limit for Walk is based on a stat enough to state that Walk is not a limited effect.

or, because there is a restriction on how far a model can Walk, is it considered a limited movement effect, and thus ended by a place effect.

[Ratty]

sadly, it's the only way reading it would work within the rules (that I can see at 6am)

otherwise, the "limiting" effect of Walk (the part that says you can only move your Wk on your card) is the part that ends when you're placed,

leaving the model still in the middle of a Walk action, with no limit to how far it can go...

somehow, I don't see jumping off a building as justification for a model becoming The Flash...

This rule is designed so that a model that is hit with an effect that limits it's movement like Snare. Has that Snare broken when it is teleported.

A Walk Action creates an effect that grants movement, not an effect that limits it.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Ratty

[Mr_Smigs]

This rule is designed so that a model that is hit with an effect that limits it's movement like Snare. Has that Snare broken when it is teleported.

A Walk Action creates an effect that grants movement, not an effect that limits it.

so... OP.

does movement end when a model falls?

followup,

if a model goes into Defensive Stance, then falls, is defensive stance ended?

if a model in defensive stance chooses to fall, do they get back their lost 1 inch of movement?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Ratty]

The rules for falling say

If a model without Flight or Float is moved off an elevation by a game effect or elects to fall down from an elevation, place the model at the base of the elevation. A model falling at least 3” suffers a Damage Flip of 2/4/6 for each full 3” fallen. Total the Damage Flips and inflict that amount of damage on the model (Damage, p.44). These Damage Flips may not be Cheated. Models with bases overlapped by the falling model after it lands are Pushed away from the model’s base in a direction of their controller’s choosing until their bases are no longer covered by the fallen model.

The Placement Effect Place always has a capital P. So in the case of falling all it is saying is put the model at the bottom of the fall.. it's not a Placement Effect.

The model can continue moving as normal if it doesn't die from the fall.

[Valcurdra]

The rules for falling say

The Placement Effect Place always has a capital P. So in the case of falling all it is saying is put the model at the bottom of the fall.. it's not a Placement Effect.

The model can continue moving as normal if it doesn't die from the fall.

Ok thanks ratty for the ruling.

I thought that was the case but I wanted to make sure.

[Mr_Smigs]

The rules for falling say

The Placement Effect Place always has a capital P. So in the case of falling all it is saying is put the model at the bottom of the fall.. it's not a Placement Effect.

The model can continue moving as normal if it doesn't die from the fall.

ok, continuing OP

if the model falls, since it's placed, not with a capitol P,

is the fall distance subtracted from its movement?

[Dolomyte]

ok, continuing OP

if the model falls, since it's placed, not with a capitol P,

is the fall distance subtracted from its movement?

no

[Mr_Smigs]

no

why not? are they not getting displaced?

it's not "Placement," or a "Push" does that not mean they are "moving"?

[Ratty]

You only ever measure horizontal distance for movement, unless your climbing.

Or put it this way.. You walk 3" off the edge of a cliff. Falling places you at the bottom, You are not walking as your falling down the cliff your immediately being placed at the bottom, you then have your remain walk left. in other words the fall interrupts the Walk Action and places you at the bottom.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Ratty