Intentionally walking off a building?

[Valcurdra]

Can you continue to move after deliberately falling of the edge of a building?

I found the rules for doing this (rules manual pg. 48) a little foggy. The rules state after chosing to walk off the edge the model is placed at the base of the terrain and takes a damage flip. What happens after that is not really stated.

1. Does my current move action end there? Or do I get to finish my walk action and spend any remaining inches of movement?

2. After taking damage can I continue the rest of my activation as normal? Taking further move actions if I please?

Anyone clarification would be greatly appreciated.

[poulpox]

We've played so far that you can continue your move; you can in this way, if you're on a 5" high platform for example, climb down 2.5" (for the cost of 5"), let yourself fall for no cost (and since you only fall 2.5" you don't need to flip Dg) and continue your move from the bottom.

[Valcurdra]

Yeah I guess that's legal too but in my case I wanted to run as far as possible and didn't want to sacrifice the 5" move climbing half way down. Also since Seamus was on full wounds I didn't mind taking a bit of extra damage.

[Dolomyte]

You can continue moving. I have not seen anything in the rules stating that the movement action ends.

[Q'iq'el]

You can continue moving, but why would fall be at no cost (@poulpox)? I don't have my rulebook at this moment, but the way I see it:

Climb, only if the surface is blimable. 2x the Ht as distance cost, no damage.

Jump - for 2 AP, no distance cost (but there's a limit how far you can jump, and it works in vertical too, I think), no damage.

Fall - no extra AP cost, but Ht as distance cost and some damage may happen.

The last one is mostly extrapolated from other movement rules - you move the distance of Ht and there's no rule saying you pay double (unlike in the climb case).

[Valcurdra]

Fall - no extra AP cost, but Ht as distance cost and some damage may happen.

The last one is mostly extrapolated from other movement rules - you move the distance of Ht and there's no rule saying you pay double (unlike in the climb case).

Interesting you say that because there is also no rule, as far as i can see, that says you must pay the distance of the Ht whilst falling.

The rules state that when you choose to fall you are simply placed in base contact at the bottom of the building and take damage (Rules manual page 38).

[Q'iq'el]

Interesting you say that because there is also no rule, as far as i can see, that says you must pay the distance of the Ht whilst falling.

The rules state that when you choose to fall you are simply placed in base contact at the bottom of the building and take damage (Rules manual page 38).

Ok, here's how I see it:

Fall is not an action. It is not something you perform paying action points for.

Rather it is a consequence of a movement action or a movement effect.

In the former case you, as the player, decide to move, charge or jump (one of the three movement actions). At certain point of that action you find there is no "terrain" to stand on, so you fall. That is what electing to fall amounts to in my opinion.

If it is part of a walk action, then you may exceed your Wk allowance, but you still moved that distance - I see no reason why Wk rules wouldn't still hold as far as counting the distance walked is concerned. No reason, because rules for Falling do not formulate any exception in that area.

If it is a result of a jump, then it depends on the kind of the jump you were making - in horizontal jump you can misjudge the range and find yourself falling. In such case the Jump is already done as an action anyway (i.e. there's no way to continue that movement, so how much distance is left doesn't matter). In case of vertical jump, the model cannot take it, unless the target location is less than 1/2 of the model's Wk distance below it. Either way, once jump is completed, you need to take a new action to move, so remaining distance doesn't matter.

Charge works pretty much same as walk here, I think.

Last but not least, climb isn't an action anymore, but rather something models do when they walk on the climbable surface. Because that trait of the terrain allows models to move up and down on it at double the charge, it allows models to "climb" both when they choose to perform a movement action and when they are victims of movement effect.... but the action/effect remains what the miniature does - double charge comes from the terrain trait.

In other words, because falling is not an action, it doesn't have its own rules for distance moved. Instead, you see what action caused the model to fail and use that actions rules for measuring the distance.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Valcurdra]

Ok, here's how I see it:

Fall is not an action. It is not something you perform paying action points for.

Rather it is a consequence of a movement action or a movement effect.

In the former case you, as the player, decide to move, charge or jump (one of the three movement actions). At certain point of that action you find there is no "terrain" to stand on, so you fall. That is what electing to fall amounts to in my opinion.

If it is part of a walk action, then you may exceed your Wk allowance, but you still moved that distance - I see no reason why Wk rules wouldn't still hold as far as counting the distance walked is concerned. No reason, because rules for Falling do not formulate any exception in that area.

If it is a result of a jump, then it depends on the kind of the jump you were making - in horizontal jump you can misjudge the range and find yourself falling. In such case the Jump is already done as an action anyway (i.e. there's no way to continue that movement, so how much distance is left doesn't matter). In case of vertical jump, the model cannot take it, unless the target location is less than 1/2 of the model's Wk distance below it. Either way, once jump is completed, you need to take a new action to move, so remaining distance doesn't matter.

Charge works pretty much same as walk here, I think.

Last but not least, climb isn't an action anymore, but rather something models do when they walk on the climbable surface. Because that trait of the terrain allows models to move up and down on it at double the charge, it allows models to "climb" both when they choose to perform a movement action and when they are victims of movement effect.... but the action/effect remains what the miniature does - double charge comes from the terrain trait.

In other words, because falling is not an action, it doesn't have its own rules for distance moved. Instead, you see what action caused the model to fail and use that actions rules for measuring the distance.

Your interpretation sounds logical and its a reasonable way of playing falling.

It is not however supported by the rules in any way. If you were expected to pay movement in " in order to fall the rules should state so clearly however the rules for falling do not state this.

They only say place at bottom of terrain and take damage nothing about how it affects your past and future movement during your activation.

[poulpox]

I guess I was thinking that falling is faster than walking hence it should not cost anything

[Q'iq'el]

Your interpretation sounds logical and its a reasonable way of playing falling.

It is not however supported by the rules in any way. If you were expected to pay movement in " in order to fall the rules should state so clearly however the rules for falling do not state this.

I think you are told to pay for the movement - the action you choose in order to move tells you how you pay for it (page 36). Fall doesn't need to contain any "price" because it isn't a movement. You cannot volitionally fall without walking, jumping or charging... and if you go with any of the three, you have to count the distance according to their own specific rules.

For a fall to be free it'd have to say "the distance you fall does not count towards your walk/charge limit".

In other words, it isn't an independent action. It piggy-backs on movement rules. You cannot consider it free, because it isn't an action. For it to make an action free, it'd have to explicitly formulate an exception.

Same goes for vertical movement on climbable surface. It too piggy-backs on movement rules, but unlike fall it formulates an exception - it tells you to double the distance moved when you move vertically. Fall would have to contain identical kind of exception to be free.

Or to put it in simple terms, how would a mini ever fall off a cliff, volitionally, without taking a walk/charge action? And if falling is part of the movement taken, how can Ht fallen not count towards the Walked/charged distance, when the action you take tells you to count the distance?

@poulpox

I suppose this is the eternal problem with "simulating" things - how far do we go?

Is "fall" action simulating only the body dropping from a height, or is it a more complex thing. At Ht 2, maybe your character is lowering itself, letting it go, landing softly and then recovering from the crouched position? At Ht3+, maybe it is falling in a deliberate way, rolling over and then standing up shakily, as it is hurting from the fall?

Either way, it is faster than climbing (which would be possible only against climbable vertical surface) - you don't have to double the distance. If you climb down from Ht2 wall, you pay 4" for that. If you fall, IMHO, it's only 2".

Edited October 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

Falling does not use movement. The rules do not in any way say that you need to spend your movement allowance for falling, they don't even hint at it. There's nothing to interpret here.

If you want a fluff reason, lets consider a 1" high wall. It's more like a large step to step onto a wall of this height, or maybe a one-handed vault. Hence this costs 2" to go up (climbing, by the rules). After that, though, you're simply stepping down and forward - consider jumping off a wall in real life; you jump 1 metre forward, you dont fall straight down and then walk. The time difference is none. In the magical, superhuman world of Malifaux where people can fall almost 3" (around 3 metres) every time without any form of injury (actually a considerable distance in real life that would often cause injury to the untrained...), why would leaping off of that be any different to a small wall?

But I digress. The rules do not call for falling to use Wk/Cg allowance. So they don't. Simples.

[Q'iq'el]

Falling rules do not call for a movement action because to fall is a result of either an action or an effect. Falling isn't listed among actions, so it cannot just be "taken".

[Calmdown]

Falling rules do not call for a movement action because to fall is a result of either an action or an effect. Falling isn't listed among actions' date=' so it cannot just be "taken".[/quote']

Falling is a consequence of movement.

Read the top of Pg 38, paying attention to "if a model is moved off an elevation by a game effect or elects to fall down from an elevation" and then read the rest of the paragraph. All of the consquences of falling are listed. Those consequences include damage and ensuring no bases are overlapped after the fall. Nowhere is spending movement mentioned.

A standard model is on the edge of a Ht 2 building. It moves 1.2" horizontally. It falls. No damage is flipped. It continues moving.

A standard model is on the edge of a Ht 3 building. It moves 1.2" horizontally. It falls. 2/4/6 is flipped. It continues moving.

There's really nothing to debate here. The rules do not call for movement to be spent on falling.

[Q'iq'el]

A standard model is on the edge of a Ht 2 building. It moves 1.2" horizontally. It falls. No damage is flipped. It continues moving.

A standard model is on the edge of a Ht 3 building. It moves 1.2" horizontally. It falls. 2/4/6 is flipped. It continues moving.

How is the model moving 1.2" without taking a movement action? Where does a model have a permission to do that (or anything at all which isn't an action, when we're at it?)?

To me to "elect to fall down" means the permission to take a walk or other movement action which will result in falling down. It does not constitute a clear permission to get a free movement of 1.2" horizontally + Ht vertically.

It is also completely logical the permission to do so is in the rules' text - otherwise some players would think you may not take a move resulting in a fall out of your free will.

[Toonook]

The model does have to take a move action to choose to fall as far as I can tell, since it needs to move the distance forwards to step off the ledge, but the distance fallen doesn't seem to count towards the total walk distance for that activation. Hence a model with 4 walk could move forwards 1" to fall off the ledge, fall, take damage if over 3" is fallen, then move forwards another 3" as part of that same activation. If I'm reading the rules right anyway.

[Valcurdra]

Read the top of Pg 38, paying attention to "if a model is moved off an elevation by a game effect or elects to fall down from an elevation" and then read the rest of the paragraph. All of the consquences of falling are listed. Those consequences include damage and ensuring no bases are overlapped after the fall. Nowhere is spending movement mentioned.

Exactly. It is 100% clear you can choose to fall down an elevation by taking a walk action. And it is also 100% clear that this does not cost you movement. (apart from that required to actually walk off the edge as toonook pointed out)

If you go back to my original question I was mainly asking if you can continue to move after taking the fall damage. The rules do not state clearly either way.

[Q'iq'el]

The model does have to take a move action to choose to fall as far as I can tell, since it needs to move the distance forwards to step off the ledge, but the distance fallen doesn't seem to count towards the total walk distance for that activation. Hence a model with 4 walk could move forwards 1" to fall off the ledge, fall, take damage if over 3" is fallen, then move forwards another 3" as part of that same activation. If I'm reading the rules right anyway.

I don't see that explicit permission to not count the Ht fallen as distance "walked" with your movement action anywhere. It's not there on the page 38 anyway.

IMHO if you have a model with Wk of 4 and move it (walk) 1.2" to fall out of the Ht4 ledge, the model takes the damage flip and it counts as if it walked 5.2" at the end (more than its allowance, so it cannot move any further). And this is possible because the rule tells us to place the model at the foot of the ledge it has fallen from - i.e. we get the explicit permission to move it there, even if it exceeds the Wk or Cg limit of the model. That IMO doesn't make the movement "free".

If falling modified or affected the way we calculate distance moved in any way, it should contain an exception to that effect, just like climbable terrain does (by making the distance count double). As is, it is a rule "adding" a possibility to interact with terrain in this way to the basic walk and charge movement.

Now it may well be the intention is for the fall to be free. I guess you guys have seen the official presentations and such way of playing has spread around there. I'm overseas and I have only RM to play on, so I get the rules wrong way more often than not. But I really don't see any explicit exception making fall distance a freebie.

On the few occasions where I elected to take a fall rather than walk around and climb down, it was always because that was a clear shortcut - even when counting the Ht towards the distance moved. I don't see why the move should deserve any further bonuses.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Toonook]

If you need to get down a sheer cliff, you have two options. Use movement and climb, or risk damage and fall. It does not state anywhere under falling that any movement for the vertical section of falling is spent. You merely place the model at the base of the cliff. There is specific spending of movement mentioned for climbing, nowhere does it mention spending movement in falling.

[Q'iq'el]

If you need to get down a sheer cliff, you have two options. Use movement and climb, or risk damage and fall.

No, you have that option only if the cliff is "climbable". It may well be not leaving you with option to take a fall or go around.

I think too many players think of fall in the category of an option with calculated risk. No, sometimes it is the only way to get there and sometimes the other way takes 10" or more and the fall is clearly faster, even if it takes 2, 3 or 4" out of your Wk allowance.

Besides, even if you climb down, you still count it as double distance, so a Wk4 model on a 4" cliff would only get 2" down its Ht, but it could fall the entire way down, which means fall twice as fast - in my book it is pretty big..

It does not state anywhere under falling that any movement for the vertical section of falling is spent. You merely place the model at the base of the cliff. There is specific spending of movement mentioned for climbing, nowhere does it mention spending movement in falling.

It doesn't have to state it to still count for distance, because it happens during your Walk action and the Walk action says:

"This model moves up to its Wk in inches. This may be in any direction and does not need to be in a straight line. <cut>" (page 36)

Everybody in this discussion, so far, has chosen to ignore it. But here it is.

1. You are on the ledge with Wk5 model.

2. You choose to move it 1.2" over the ledge and fall.

3. You fall 3", which a vertical movement (Wk is in any direction).

4. You can continue moving for the remaining 0.8", because you can move only up to your Wk allowance.

If you fall more than your Wk allowance, that is your gain. You get permission to do that, when you're told to place the model at the base of the elevation (which is a specific rule affecting how far it can go).

At this point I'd really like to see a ruling on that. Because we clearly have a customary way of playing "fall", which seems to go against the movement rules, but that may be just my impression and I'd like to know what is the intention behind these rules.

[Toonook]

It doesn't have to state it to still count for distance, because it happens during your Walk action and the Walk action says:

"This model moves up to its Wk in inches. This may be in any direction and does not need to be in a straight line. <cut>" (page 36)

Hmmm, that's an interesting point actually. Had only thought about the "in any direction" as a horizontal thing. Now I'm confuzzled lol.

[Calmdown]

How is the model moving 1.2" without taking a movement action? Where does a model have a permission to do that (or anything at all which isn't an action, when we're at it?)?

To me to "elect to fall down" means the permission to take a walk or other movement action which will result in falling down. It does not constitute a clear permission to get a free movement of 1.2" horizontally + Ht vertically.

It is also completely logical the permission to do so is in the rules' text - otherwise some players would think you may not take a move resulting in a fall out of your free will.

Yes, you have to take a walk action obviously. The point is that the vertical section does not cost you any movement allowance.

To the original question - you carry on moving. Nothing says otherwise, therefore nothing stops you.

So to go back to my example, if a 30mm base Wk 6 model starts in base contact with a building edge:

you take a walk action

move 1.2" over the edge

fall and get placed below where you were

take damage if applicable

continue with 4.8" of movement left

[Q'iq'el]

Yes, you have to take a walk action obviously. The point is that the vertical section does not cost you any movement allowance.

To the original question - you carry on moving. Nothing says otherwise, therefore nothing stops you.

Rules for the Walk action stop you. You cannot move further than Wk allowance in total. Even if you assume the distance fallen may take you beyond your Wk range (I agree the rules do seem to create such exception), it still doesn't mean you can Wk further than your Wk range.

After all the fall is part of your move, and your move cannot go beyond your Wk range.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Toonook]

Well having started firmly in the keep moving side of this disagreement, even creating a forum profile just to jump in on it, I'm torn between both sides of it now. Think we need to know one way or another if the "in any direction" in the walk action description also applies to vertical movement as well.

What makes me think that it might actually count as distance moved is that if you moved up a slope you would clearly angle your tape measure, you wouldn't just move 6" horizontally and however many inches vertically. Thus if that kind of diagonal affects movement distance why wouldn't vertical?

[Talos]

I was pretty sure Malifaux does not work with vertical and horizontal planes so the vertical movement should not count.

[Q'iq'el]

With the introduction of the proper Elevated terrain characteristic in the Rules Manual, together with small changes to all the relevant rules (los, measuring etc) it pretty much works in 3D now.

LoS rules allow for measuring line of sight in 3D and Measurement rules are now explicitly base to base, so 3D too. And "any direction" in the movement rules does cover up and down as well, as far as I'm concerned,

[Mr_Smigs]

With the introduction of the proper Elevated terrain characteristic in the Rules Manual, together with small changes to all the relevant rules (los, measuring etc) it pretty much works in 3D now.

LoS rules allow for measuring line of sight in 3D and Measurement rules are now explicitly base to base, so 3D too. And "any direction" in the movement rules does cover up and down as well, as far as I'm concerned,

hmm...

if you measure base-to-base distances in 3d,

the question could be, given

(1) Walk: This model moves up to its Wk in inches. This may be in any direction and does not need to be in a straght line. A model may Walk into melee combat if it chooses.

are they defining this as

"The model's total Displacement from where it began the Walk action cannot be greater than its Wk in inches."

or

"The model can displace itself in a number of 1 inch increments equal to it's Wk"

if the former,

then the final destination in 3d needs to be determined and there's a little Geometry to be calculated there (Pythagorean theorem and all that) but it also implies a model can shimmy around terrain without penalty... so this seems counter to the rest of the rules...

if the later,

then the question is, do the models have to obey gravity?

assuming so

to fall down from an elevation, place the model at the base of the elevation

When a model is Placed in a new location, effects limiting the distance it may move immediately end.

Page 38's rules on falling seem to imply that, if you voluntarily fall, you become The Flash and may move any number of inches with your Wk as a reward for base jumping...

alternately, we could argue that since "effects limiting the distance it may move immediately end" and Walk limits the distance it may move,

that then, the Walk ends when the model is placed.

"within the spirit of the rules" ... the last part makes the most sense. The Walk ends when you fall.