Frostbeard Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 On aRamos with his manifest requirement: 1) Is it: Summon 2 Spiders = Manifest Requirement or Summon 2 Electrical Creations = Manifest Requirement 2) or is it: Summon 1 Spider and 1 Electrical Creation = Requirement or See 1 Thanks for this clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Note: Despite having some funky cards next to my name, my answer is by no means a clarification and is just my view on it. My way of reading it, is that you have to summon 2 of one. The reason based on this is that if it was worded, "Summon 2 electrical creations or 2 spiders" Then the question *could* be lawyered such that when you've summoned 2 of each, the requirement is no longer met, much like an Exclusive Or in logic. The and is simply there to say, yeah, you can summon 2 of each if you want. If you read over it a couple more times, it becomes clear that it does not have a meaning such that one of each would meet it, as that is not summoning 2 of X and/or 2 of Y. It's summoning 2 of X and/or Y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Big Baws Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I don't have Book 3 yet, but these looks like a Semantics issue. Can anyone quote the text? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'm not so sure it is clear, Rocky...and not because I want to start an argument. I've always read it as one of each is viable to meet the requirement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stern Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'm not so sure it is clear, Rocky...and not because I want to start an argument. I've always read it as one of each is viable to meet the requirement... honestly that's how I see it too chief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Well, now I'm quite curious which one's supposed to be intended... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'm with rocky on this one reading it carefully it is clear it is two of one type the wording doesn't imply that one of each would work. Also if you want to attract an rm it best to post in rules forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Seems a bit too easy to me. I've read it as you have to summon 2 spider or 2 ec ever since I got the book, and I've read many times. Doesn't mean I'm 100% right, but an RM clarification would be nice. I know there was a thread about it a long.time ago, but I don't recall having a RM ruling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hm. Interesting, because everyone local who's read it has read as any combination of the two. So we've got some neat cases of groupthink going on, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and/or Construct Spider twice." p81 It's the use of the word "and" that allows Ramos any combination to reach two summons, 1 of each or 2 of one. Unless a Marshal overrules it. Here is the rule missing words. Missing or - Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and Construct Spider twice. This would mean he has to summon both twice. Missing and - Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation or Construct Spider twice. This means he has to summon on of the minions twice. Sense the rule contains both "and" plus "or," its any combination to reach a total of 2 summons. Edited October 27, 2011 by Fading Memory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Big Baws Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and/or Construct Spider twice." It's the use of the word "and" that allows Ramos any combination to reach two summons, 1 of each or 2 of one. Unless a Marshal overrules it. Semantics say no. Twice implies that each side of the AND or OR clause happens two times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Semantics say no. Twice implies that each side of the AND or OR clause happens two times. Bingo, that's how I reasoned it. Depends though, cryptic rule wording has caused issue before...RM ruling to put the issue to bed would be best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Just to clarify, I read it as one of each for the first 10ish times of reading, but when you really nitpick, I came to the conclusion I said. As said, I think the and simply allows you to have summoned 2 ECs and 2 spiders, in case anyone said, "But you've done 2 of each so you can't manifest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 To me this sentence is blindingly obvious and simple. Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and/or Construct spider twice. As has been stated, the use of both and+or means any combination of Electrical creation/Construct Spider 0/2 1/1 2/0 will meet the requirements, the and/or written like that is not meaning you must use both words, it is a choice for which is more relevant at the time of the sentence being applied to the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) Emphasis on twice shows otherwise. What does this sentence mean to you: "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and Construct Spider twice." Now this one: "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation or construct Spider twice." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or Now try this because this basically what and/or means: "Ramos successfully casts either Electrical Creation or Construct Spider twice." Any question still? I hope this helps. Now intent and grammar don't always go together but given other Avatars requirements I think intent is clear too. One if each is insanely easy. Edited October 27, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I vote for any combination or the and/or wording seems worthless. What does this sentence mean to you: "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation and Construct Spider twice." It means you need to cast 2 EC and 2 Spiders "Ramos successfully casts either Electrical Creation or Construct Spider twice." This one reads to me the same as the previous one. The word either adds nothing to the sentence in my opinion. "Ramos successfully casts Electrical Creation or construct Spider twice." It means you either need to cast EC twice or Spiders twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 My issue is that wyrd goes out of their way to make it impossible for you to meet a manifestation requirement on the first turn / activation without having to either win a resist duel, do damage, sacrifice your own models, etc. Ramos is the only master who literally has to just flip / cheat in some tomes. It's because of those limitations (liliths one per turn on illusionary forest, Colettes over two activations) that leads me to believe they want Ramos to have to cast EITHER Spider twice or Creation Twice. As it is written, I think you could cast one of each and do it. but does it really matter, electrical creation is easier to cast then construct spider. Sure you lose a 1 action out of it, but oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 @Dolomyte - Som'er teeth Jones, turn 1! Ramos can still do it with a brass arachnid if you're desperate, or even alyce... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 @Dolomyte - Som'er teeth Jones, turn 1! Ramos can still do it with a brass arachnid if you're desperate, or even alyce... Ramos could do it solo. It is not impossible to cast EC, kill it, then cast it again. Not even sure it you have to kill it. Nico can get his off on turn one almost my accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 It's either: 2 Steampunk Arachnids 2 Electrical Creations Or a combination of them. Also, the rules forum is here----->CLICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks, Sketch! Well, it does appear that Ramos can, in fact, Avatar successfully beginning of 2...whether it's a good idea or not is another issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuJubee Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 That just made things a whole lot easier. I`ve been doing it as either 2 EC or 2 spiders. Thabk you for the ruling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Wow now he can do it easy without a totem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Wow now he can do it easy without a totem. You do all realize that Ramos himself has to perform the casting and not any totems he has attached, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks, Sketch! Well, it does appear that Ramos can, in fact, Avatar successfully beginning of 2...whether it's a good idea or not is another issue. It's pretty much always a good idea to get into a form that basically reads "kill everything on the table" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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