Avatar Hamelin Question #2: Blight Counters and Malifaux Rats

[Sandwich]

Hamelin's Mark of Contagion:All Malifaux Rats entering play gain one Blight Counter.

Rule Book's Blight Tokens: Whenever a model with one or more Blight Token suffers Wds, it suffer 1 additional Wd.

Malifaux Rat's (0)Writhing Mass: This model suffers 1 Wd. Move this model into base contact with another friendly Malifaux Rat within 5".

Hamelin's (1)Frenzied Piping: 10. Friendly Vermin may inflict 1 Wd on themselves when inflicting damage on a model with a melee attack to increase the Dg inflicted by +1.

Additional Statements: By introducing Mark of Contagion, you are RaW unable to take the option of using either of the mentioned abilities with your Malifaux Rats.

- Malifaux Rats only have 2 Wd.

Question:

Was this intended?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Sandwich

[Akujie]

They only have 2 wounds I am assuming...haven't played against hamelin yet?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Yeah only 2 wd looks like it they couldn't utilize those actions.

[Sandwich]

They only have 2 wounds I am assuming...haven't played against hamelin yet?

Added that to the original post, thanks for reminding me.

[Hookers]

Yeah only 2 wd looks like it they couldn't utilize those actions.

holy crap i totally missed that.

thank god. i was very concerned that they would gain the ability to have literally unlimited activations.

[edonil]

...Weird. I'm curious if that's what was intended too.

[Sandwich]

I hardly think it's intended, Avatar Hamelin shouldn't be excluding a model specifically intended for him.

Just a hiccup in thought, I believe.

I'm sure the Rats will gain some sort of ability that givesthem the ability to ignore Blight Tokens.

[magicpockets]

*cough* credit for the catch? *cough*

[Sandwich]

*cough* credit for the catch? *cough*

Did you catch it too?

I'm sure you did somewhere but I don't remember.

So we'll say all credit to you.

For I just want a fix!

[psychocamel]

Screw you guys, I'm stealing all the credit for myself!

*grabs credit and runs*

[magicpockets]

Did you catch it too?

I'm sure you did somewhere but I don't remember.

So we'll say all credit to you.

For I just want a fix!

In your first (ranty) thread. And to be fair it was someone else who caught it (Necromorph maybe?) - I was just yanking your chain (in a strictly euphemismic way)

[ZiggyQubert]

Actualy, I'll take credit for it here --

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24040

but one interpration would be that you can use it, as the ability does one wound to the rat, (not killing it) it is only when it takes that wound that the rat takes an aditional wound from the blight token.

But this would make the rats mad crazy good as well, as they could recycle indefinetly as long as they continue to hit there target, not that difficult with there (0) action

[Lucidicide]

Isn't the 'can't kill yourself' rule basically saying you can't take any action that would definitely result in your death?

If so, a rat couldn't use the ability that would do 1 Wd to it because it would guarantee to kill the rat, as it really does 2 Wd.

I guess it depends on whether you have to consider effects outside the ability you're using when taking it into account.

[hippieshopper]

Isn't the 'can't kill yourself' rule basically saying you can't take any action that would definitely result in your death?

If so, a rat couldn't use the ability that would do 1 Wd to it because it would guarantee to kill the rat, as it really does 2 Wd.

I guess it depends on whether you have to consider effects outside the ability you're using when taking it into account.

Exactly.

You cannot take an action that would kill the model. Unless it was caused by Dg NOT Wd.

See Papa Loco's "Take Ya With Me!"

Since all those stupid blight counters and rat tactics cause Wd not Dg, you cannot use those extra actions.

Which is an error on Wyrd's part...

There's too much mixing of the two =P

[Sandwich]

Actualy, I'll take credit for it here --

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24040

but one interpration would be that you can use it, as the ability does one wound to the rat, (not killing it) it is only when it takes that wound that the rat takes an aditional wound from the blight token.

But this would make the rats mad crazy good as well, as they could recycle indefinetly as long as they continue to hit there target, not that difficult with there (0) action

Well, I'm on the edge of the wall, leaning more towards you can't.

Aside from that, even if you could, a Blight Token states that as soon as you suffer a Wd, you suffer an additional one, which would simply kill the rat before any action could be taken anyway.

[FearLord]

Well, I'm on the edge of the wall, leaning more towards you can't.

Aside from that, even if you could, a Blight Token states that as soon as you suffer a Wd, you suffer an additional one, which would simply kill the rat before any action could be taken anyway.

Well that wouldn't matter for the purposes of Frenzied Piping, because the Wd is inflicted when it is inflicting damage to a model, not before it takes an actions - so the effect would actually be that the Rat is killed to inflict additional damage...

I think it can actually use this - the rules manual says that a model cannot use a talent or spell that inflicts Wds on itself if it would reduce its own wounds to 0. In this case the talent would not be reducing the model's Wounds to 0, the effect from the Blight Token would...

In a similar vein, a model on 1 wound is allowed to attack (melee spell since an standard melee attack isn't a talent or spell) Kaeris / Fire Gamin, even though you know that burning armor / blood will kill the model by inflicting its last wound - it will happen as a result of the attack, but the model did not directly inflict wounds on itself...

I guess they're so out of luck as far as Writing Mass goes though...

[Hookers]

you can still use the abilities. it just has to be on rats that were alive before hamelin manifests.

[Sandwich]

you can still use the abilities. it just has to be on rats that were alive before hamelin manifests.

Yeah tell me how long that lasts.

[Sandwich]

you can still use the abilities. it just has to be on rats that were alive before hamelin manifests.

Actually I just caught something in his Manifest steps.

Step 5: All Malifaux Rats in play gain 1 Blight Token

[Hookers]

Actually I just caught something in his Manifest steps.

Step 5: All Malifaux Rats in play gain 1 Blight Token

[Dolomyte]

He can remove said token with his healing ability. however I agree that this seems wonky. Gives rats two abilities, one via them, one via avatar, which they cant use when he manifests.

[Sandwich]

He can remove said token with his healing ability. however I agree that this seems wonky. Gives rats two abilities, one via them, one via avatar, which they cant use when he manifests.

Agreed.

I'm not sure how something this big got through playtesting.

[FearLord]

My last post explains why they can use Frenzied piping - perhaps it was intended that they can't use Writhing Mass...

[Sandwich]

Gonna bump this real quicklike.

I'd really like to get the RaI down so I can play a ton of A.Hamelin the right way. :]

[JisaacT]

I really want to know the answer because my best bud play Hamelin...I don't want him to get lucky and infinite rat attack me! Rats on crack attack!