Nicodem vs Hoffman: what's your weaponry?

[poulpox]

Hey folks!

So I find those +2/+4 armors rather tough, as well as immune to influence when playing my Nicodem vs Hoffman.

So far Killjoy has been the top model I've used since his min Dg output is so high. I once launched him with 3 high masks against a duo of Hoff-Guardian and inflicted enough Wds in one activation to reduce both Hoff and Guardian to 2 Wds left each (only to be killed in return though, so averagely successful). Using punks and crooked men see them going close to the Hoff who pops them easily with his short circuit.

What models do you guys prefer for this match up? I think some of the spirits such as Hanged, Onryo, Datsue-ba could be interesting (Wp test by-passing immune to influence, or strikes ignoring armor), but you run the risk of low corpse counters when facing constructs and fielding spirits.

Maybe Dead Rider to snatch-pull out models of Hoff's base contact, hence reducing his lethality?

Any suggestions?

Cheers,

T.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Your ideas seem good to me. If you are most concerned about the Armor his models have you have a few options.

#1: Models that could care less about Armor. Shikome, Datsue-Ba.

#2: A swarm of Models that only hit for 1 but can HIT and hit alot. Maybe a swarm of Gaki...or Necropunks... Honestly Collodi does this tactic better than anything we can do with his Marionette Death Squad.

#3: Models that hit hard enough not to really care about Armor. We don't have any of these. The Ressers have very little that can both hit excessively hard and often. We have exactly 2 minions in the whole range that have Melee Expert, and Exactly one model that easily gains fast. Unfortunately one of those Melee Experts is Kirai only (Ikiryo), one only has a Cb of 5 (Sebastion) and your final all around awesome choice is the Shikome, with their attendant "no Corpse Counter" issue,... well you know.

You could also always add Sybelle in. She has an ability to remove armor.

[d_mun]

1. I like the dead rider for the purposes you mentioned. Hope to hear how it works for you.

2.I'd try to avoid taking the other constructs since Hoffman can just take them over and then they cannot activate for the turn. I'd stick to the standby of Punk Zombies with Flurry so you can 1 pt them to death.

3.Another way to go would be to take a bunch of canine remains. When they die, raise them up as MZ so he can work on killing those over and over again while you have other models achieve your objectives.

4. If you don't mind Mercenary models, I like the convict gunslinger (again, number of attacks) and desperate mercenaries. The desperates are there to tie up, die and then come back as something more useful. And Taelor with her Relic hammer. Just kills constructs.

5. Bete Noir to use her knives to slow or paralyze the constructs or Hoffman himself. He has crummy Df, her Cb is double it.

[demkoenig]

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin...

[Oshova]

My personal choices for this would be somthing like, Hanged (only just found out how great these can be for taking out high Wd, high armour/spirits), Bete Noir (Kill a model in range of C. Hoffman and pop out and flurry), and Punk Zombies (Still one of my favourite models in the game, work well with Belles . . . just not against constructs =p)

However, I may have to try out the Dead Rider like you said, as I hadn't thought of that ; ]

Oshova

[poulpox]

I wasn't really impressed with Bete because she struggles passing the armor, unlike Killjoy, for almost the same amount of ss (that one time I inflicted 15 Wds to Hoff/Guard in one activation with him and his Onslaught!).

I really like the Taelor idea (which I used to use a lot for Zoraida's anti-constructs llists as well, dunno why I didn't think of her before!): now with Necrotic Machine she can gain Undead and benefit from Bolster undead and/or be healed, with Hard to Kill, that's pretty awesome, plus she has a great melee range which could possibly keep her out of reach of Hoff's Open Circuit. MUST TRY!

[Dr.Feelgood]

Against the strongest piece, i would through Bete Noire in and work on continually paralyzing it with depraved tactics.

As long as you remember to keep the card necessary to burry herself it hit.

[poulpox]

She can't paralyze constructs unfortunately!

[Stern]

can't sybelle remove armour?

[Hookers]

can't sybelle remove armour?

even better, they don't receive the benefit of armor.

this means armor that can't be ignored (joss, etc.) can still effectively be ignored

killjoy is good, more for the amount of attacks than the high damage output (armor 4 still makes him do 1 damage). also black blood can be awesome to whittle them down

hanged are pretty much garbage against them.

flurry models are good.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Bete is awesome because he suffers from fewer activations so she cam pop out flurry then kill her so she can pop aga8n next turn. Keep in mind Hoff's crew usually also has low def so even mz have good chance of causing havoc. The same can ne said for canine. Plus with canine lower def ability you can almost guarantee hits. Hoff falls pretty easily to overwhelming numbers.

Also another reason for Bete and dogs is there ability to keep up, the Hoff's free is very fast.

Ranged threats can help a lot like crooked men and punks. Drop a bunch of shifted markers and pop fog totally hoses him. Fire off decay can really help spread dmg around his crew when they are all bunched up.

Nico probably second best resser against Hoff.

Also drowned and riptide will destroy his crew so fast 2 in a crew well worth the points place them near objectives and in cover. If you can hit the Hoff's ride you would be wrecking or hit a friendly. Not a gun. Since it causes wounds 2 casts and he will be hurting plus surrounding resist would be def 12 that means most will need a 8 -10.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[CrazyCarl]

Sybelle's ignore armor spell is a WP duel and all Hoff's constructs are ITI

[Fetid Strumpet]

An Onryo or two for flavor if you need to get a WP duel through.

[poulpox]

Bete is awesome because he suffers from fewer activations so she cam pop out flurry then kill her so she can pop aga8n next turn. Keep in mind Hoff's crew usually also has low def so even mz have good chance of causing havoc. The same can ne said for canine. Plus with canine lower def ability you can almost guarantee hits. Hoff falls pretty easily to overwhelming numbers.

I must admit I did see this falling to shamble last game when Hoff in BTB with 2 constructs cast Open Circuit 2 or 3 times /turn, inflicting 4Wds a go! Each turn he'd kill 3 strong models (crooked and punks) and MZs in one activation. Next turn I'm lucky with cards and res the same amount of people, and bam, same business... And because when you summon punks they lose their flurry to slow they struggle to be efficient the turn they come in.

The more I think, the more Taleor + Necro Machine comes to mind: ignoring armor +4 is huge, and makes the Guardian half as good.

Dare I even try Taelor AND Johan? Or maybe Taelor and Hans (undeadified he'd reach finally a Cb 7...)? Hmmm...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I can see where you are coming from. The solution to what you typed has more to do with quantity of activations and activation order. Also I list punk under range not flurry, only Bete's flurry is reliable.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[FearLord]

Fire off decay can really help spread dmg around his crew when they are all bunched up.

As long as they aren't bunched up around Hoffman - Dampening means you won't be putting Blast Markers all that close to him...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Forgot about dampening. Decay wouldn't help against only useful for healing.

[poulpox]

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin...

Yes actually, this is the cheaper option compared to Taelor-Johan/Hans combo, their Run Trough ability would be very useful, a little like Dead Rider idea.

I guess Tae/Johan adds the magic weapon, more useful vs spirits. I might invest in a pack of Ronin and see...

[Fetid Strumpet]

You could also add Datsue-Ba. Her knife will go right through armor and you could run a variant of the McMorning list which runs Bete and Datsue-Ba and uses Datsue-ba to cut up your dogs on turn one, hopefully summoning some Gaki or Onryo off the cut ups. Nicodem then uses Arise to get some Mindless Zombies first turn, and then can use the counters to summon something nasty.

It does suffer the issue of all Resser lists of this sort though that you are burning a turn or two adjusting your list rather then going strait after your objectives.