Hard Comp Restrictions

[Guy in Suit]

I just ran a story encounters tournament yesterday to encourage this as well. I hand wrote the strategies with the metagame in mind (who the good players were, who the new players were, what masters are good against each other, etc.) and predetermined the matchups before hand.

This sounds really interesting - but wouldn't really work for a large event. This sounds perfect for league play though.

I thought about making scenarios that are particularly difficult for certain Masters - my favorite being 'Quicksand - models buried count as sacrificed instead'

[Guy in Suit]

And how Fixed crews/Open faction worked for you? People brought 3~4 different masters? Or just skipped the tournament?

In the open faction gaining-grounds tourney we ahd in April some did bring entire factions - but many stuck with the Master they knew the most, either because of familiarity or simply it was the only painted master they had. I don't think anyone skipped as it was the largest tournament we had thus far.

I think Stitched for 6 would be overpriced - people have knee-jerk reaction to them, but they really don't bring enough to the crew to warrant that cost. Their value is more in what they support and hide than in their own abilities - and you are already limiting these other combos with the changes mentioned above.

You mention their value in support and hiding and thats why we think they are undercosted - they hit as hard as other 5SS models AND bring all these other useful situational abilities to the party. They just seem to stand head and shoulders above other 5SS Neverborn Models - and i don't think making other NB models cheaper to balance them against the stitched would be a good idea. I also considered simply fixing them for VP purposes as well as counting the fog as terrain so it could be ignored by certain models would be the best was to balance them - but wanted to stay away from changing existing rules marshall precedent - even though we all agree it is kinda silly!

I'm really surprised at the hit to Perdita and to Colette. I suppose it is less of a balancing tool and more of a vindictive "don't play this master we see too much of it"....

...I don't know Kirai well enough to comment.

Becuase you select your master before selecting your crew- these masters would become the default otherwise as they are simply the most flexible and mobile of their faction.

When in doubt people will always default to these masters as they are so good at any of the 'claim' type scenarios. The dove factory isn't much of an issue locally - this is just a 'speed tax'.

[ispep]

So basically what you mean by "encourage diversity" is "punish people who choose to play certain crews." Seems more dickish than playing Alp bombs.

[Dolomyte]

im still curious why rats cant interact with things.

[Calmdown]

I think given the lack of errata to 'fix' broken models in this game that it was only a matter of time before people started doing this.

However I think that the specific rules you're imposing are off.

Personally I'd be imposing the following if I were running a tournament (with better wording):

1) The Dreamer is banned

2) Hamelin the Plagued is banned

3) If a model that is a target (bad wording but you get the point) of any strategy or scheme that is killed by its own crew, or sacrificed by the Drain Souls action, VP are awarded for that scheme.

4) Stitched Together count as destroyed for objective purposes when Does Not Die happens

That wouldn't conclusively solve the issues with Malifaux at the moment but it would go a long way to solving the issues

[Guy in Suit]

im still curious why rats cant interact with things.

Can lead to janky things like opening doors - teleporting around - killing stuff - then closing doors. Also any terrain peice that they can interact with to kill themselves causes problems.

It can also sometimes force Hammy himself to get involved in objective grabbing as well rather than just spend all his AP making models insignificant - an added bonus.

[Guy in Suit]

Personally I'd be imposing the following if I were running a tournament (with better wording):

1) The Dreamer is banned

2) Hamelin the Plagued is banned

3) If a model that is a target (bad wording but you get the point) of any strategy or scheme that is killed by its own crew, or sacrificed by the Drain Souls action, VP are awarded for that scheme.

4) Stitched Together count as destroyed for objective purposes when Does Not Die happens

1 & 2 - various locals have really pretty Hammy and Dreamer crews - would hate not to see them on the table. I'd never ban a legal model - just change it so it is less heinous. Although something like the quicksand scenario described about would probably limit people taking Dreamer if I decided to do a fixed-master tourney!

3. is more difficult - it really has become a frustrating-but-unsolvable issue with the way the current game design works... Honestly I think drain souls shouldn't exist and you should have to spend AP killing your own models and might consider adding that as a potential fix.

4. Yeah - this is a given - I only didn't add this rule because Slaghter is fairly rare with these parameters and players can re-flip it if going against a neverborn Master.

[Guy in Suit]

So basically what you mean by "encourage diversity" is "punish people who choose to play certain crews." Seems more dickish than playing Alp bombs.

Bitter much?

Most players here who have played the OP crews are bored with them anyway - this only provides tangible reasons in addition to the social ones to leave the boring stuff in the carrying case.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Guy in Suit

[Q'iq'el]

In the open faction gaining-grounds tourney we ahd in April some did bring entire factions - but many stuck with the Master they knew the most, either because of familiarity or simply it was the only painted master they had. I don't think anyone skipped as it was the largest tournament we had thus far.

Ah, but fixed crew/open faction is when every player registers set of crews and they have to play different crew with different leader (minions may repeat) each game, until they run out of crews.

If you set the minimum of 2 crews, then all the players have to bring at least 2 masters and rotate them, so that they play half of the games with each. 3 means 1/3 of the games with each crew and so on.

Obviously you can do this as fixed faction as well, but then you start taxing newer players a bit. I think it's more common for people to own one master from 2~3 factions than 2~3 masters all in one faction. But that may be just my experience (seeing how I'm too in such a group ).

I've suggested it, because it is the easiest way to encourage people to try new masters, without modyfying the rules.

[Calmdown]

Most players here who have played the OP crews are bored with them anyway - this only provides tangible reasons in addition to the social ones to leave the boring stuff in the carrying case.

Dude.

There are no OP crews in Malifaux.

Just focus on your objectives.

[dgraz]

Ah, but fixed crew/open faction is when every player registers set of crews and they have to play different crew with different leader (minions may repeat) each game, until they run out of crews.

Yeah, I mentioned something like that. Open faction, but you can't play the same Master more than once.

[Q'iq'el]

You mention their value in support and hiding and thats why we think they are undercosted - they hit as hard as other 5SS models AND bring all these other useful situational abilities to the party.

Actually what I said was, that if you already cuddle the nasty combos they can hide, then their hiding ability to hide models becomes less valuable.

Also they seriously *do not* hit as hard as ~5SS models. Take a good look at Silurid, Hoarcat Pride, Punk Zombies or the ever popular Francisco Ortega. (not only these models have higher damage, but they have triggers and abilities which make this damage more reliable).

[dgraz]

So basically what you mean by "encourage diversity" is "punish people who choose to play certain crews." Seems more dickish than playing Alp bombs.

Not helpful. Instead of criticizing, why not try posting something productive or just not post at all.

[Q'iq'el]

Yeah, I mentioned something like that. Open faction, but you can't play the same Master more than once.

Yup, that's Gaining Grounds, Fixed Crew formad. First thing I suggested in this thread.

Seems people easily overlook it, because they see it requires submitting the lists and sticking with them and that makes it un-Malifaux-ish.

But set the minimum number of masters at 2 or 3 and suddenly you have exactly the tool you need to force people into trying out different crews... at least until they get it and you can return to more liberal formats.

[dgraz]

I really hate the idea of fixed crews in Malifaux. It is totally against the way the game is played. By just saying you can't use the same Master you still have lots of choices but if force you to diversify.

[nilus]

I really hate the idea of fixed crews in Malifaux. It is totally against the way the game is played. By just saying you can't use the same Master you still have lots of choices but if force you to diversify.

The only time I would do fixed crews is for very special events. Specific types of story encounters or Team tournaments with fixed shared strategies announced ahead of time.

[ispep]

Not helpful. Instead of criticizing, why not try posting something productive or just not post at all.

Arbitrarily making up rules isn't helpful either. My post clearly defined how I felt about screwing people over. Here, I'll help by listing some other changes that could be made to force people to play specific crews in specific ways, as opposed to how they should be out of the books.

• 
  Get Yer Bro costs 2 AP

• Mosquitoes lose Magical Extension.

• Nino's range is reduced to 12"

• Kirai can't use Spirit Anchor

• McMourning doesn't gain corpse/body part counters from killing friendly models.

• Rotten Belles can only use Lure once per activation.

• Collodi can not move more than 12" in a turn through any means.

• Any summoned model does not count for VP purposes.

• Steampunk Arachnids that have swarmed together may not un-swarm.

• Marcus can't hire non-Arcanist beasts.

Weeee, pretending to be a game designer is fun!

[nilus]

Guys lets keep this civil. Up to this point this was a pretty interesting thread. If you don't like the topic then just don't post.

[dgraz]

Posting obvious inflammatory posts are not helpful. If you have something to add that may help the OP then please post otherwise just leave off.

[Fetid Strumpet]

While I agree that I don't think I would play very often in games that changed up the rules this much I have to disagree strongly with ispep's somewhat, charged opinion on it. In your local area if you all agree to the changes I'd say feel free to implement them, you don't need Wyrd's permission or even the community as a whole's support of your decision.

If you all have more fun with your own house rules to it then the changes are good and you are not having "badwrongfun" or making a mistake by doing so. Just realize that not everyone will agree or approve of your own take on the rules or how the game should be played, and you *might* lose players over it. But then again for all I know you might gain them, it depends on what the local players in your area want and how effective it is at growing the game. I have my own opinions on it but just because you aren't playing the "100% official totally recognized end result endorsed" version of the game doesn't make it bad.

I also don't agree with ispep's characterization that your decision making process is arbitrary as you have sound motivations behind what you are doing (even if not everyone agrees with them) Wyrd's entire design process could be described as arbitrary under that rubric, they just have done more testing of their rules set across a wider spectrum of players than your rules will encompass. So don't be surprised when you change things and find that now perhaps the Dreamer, Kirai, insert considered OP master here, are no longer the dominate crews but some other crew will dominate. You are not going to get perfect balance whatever you do, you are just going to have to decide among yourselves where you want the deep end of the pool to be.

[Guy in Suit]

Inane bull$$$$$$$$

Everyone else has no problem adding interesting ideas and we are actively considering all of them. However blatant trolling makes it a bit more laborious.

Mods, if you would please...

[ispep]

Posting obvious inflammatory posts are not helpful. If you have something to add that may help the OP then please post otherwise just leave off.

I'll post in whatever threads I wish. Especially if they are threads that have the potential to ruin any sort of tournament scene or even local gaming community. If you or anyone else choose to take offense to my posts, that is your problem, not mine.

Everyone else has no problem adding interesting ideas and we are actively considering all of them. However blatant trolling makes it a bit more laborious.

Mods, if you would please...

If your ideas were interesting, I might agree. But they aren't. They exist only to punish people who play specific styles of crew. If you don't want to play against them, that's your choice, but don't design your events so that they can't play what they paid for.

[Guy in Suit]

Yup' date=' that's Gaining Grounds, Fixed Crew formad. First thing I suggested in this thread.[/quote']

Seriously, what is with the tone? All these provincial types getting uppity in here.

Fixed crews present a Catch 22. If its a single fixed crew then all your balance issues get worse as Min-Maxed buzzsaw lists just annihilate people unless they hit theer one (if any) counter. On the other hand - lots of players only have one Master - especially when it comes to fully painted (we always give bonuses to painted crews as we have quite a few serious hobbyists here) - so requiring multiple masters/crews would cause attendance to drop off a LOT.

I'm likely going to use fixed lists when I run a 25SS 75-minute round single-elim tournament though - a format where I feel it works well.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Everyone.

Calm it down or I will lock the thread.

[Guy in Suit]

Just realize that not everyone will agree or approve of your own take on the rules or how the game should be played, and you *might* lose players over it. But then again for all I know you might gain them, it depends on what the local players in your area want and how effective it is at growing the game.

Which is why I am opening up to comment well before the event. I fully intend to cater too as many players as possible! I think most players are at the point were something should be done - especially about Neverborn who continue to dominate events. If I am wrong and enough local people say to back off, I will!

.... So don't be surprised when you change things and find that now perhaps the Dreamer, Kirai, insert considered OP master here, are no longer the dominate crews but some other crew will dominate. You are not going to get perfect balance whatever you do, you are just going to have to decide among yourselves where you want the deep end of the pool to be.

It's a living experiment - espescially as new Book 3 models come out. Honestly its my hope to not have to apply ANY of these restrictions - and perhaps for the big spring event enough time will have passed and the scene will have changed that it won't be necessary.