Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[Q'iq'el]

@Q: Those are some great strategies Q. You should put them up on those Masters Pages on the Wiki for the How to play against [Master] section, people could really use them man. They seem very sound to me, and that Lilith one is one I like to use myself. Otherwise, Bleed Black Blood (from the BBS) is always a good way at nuking Alps that get to close. She has a number of options basically.

The problem is I get too few games against dreamer to truly test and refine these concepts. If someone added to the effort, I think we could come with decent tactica against Dreamer.

As to the Black Blood, unfortunately it doesn't harm Neverborn, even from BBS and Nekima.

[karn987]

The problem is I get too few games against dreamer to truly test and refine these concepts. If someone added to the effort, I think we could come with decent tactica against Dreamer.

As to the Black Blood, unfortunately it doesn't harm Neverborn, even from BBS and Nekima.

Ahh your right! I always forget that.

@Fetid:

Alright I'll take a quick stab at it, though that "non play related" part is a bit confusing. You can't analyze it realistically without considering play implications of this. Because remember, the play implications of his synergies is what makes him so deadily.

Dreamer is Very Low Df, Low Wd, and very easy to kill. He is a Spirit, but as far as Masters go, he is the easiest of them all to kill. His only counter is his speed which is easily canceled out by models that can match it, or catch him at ranged.

The Dreamers death (or incapaciation, say Paralyze) often signifies and near auto loss for the crew. Unless the Dreamer has already unloaded his Nightmares in the right spot, or is in it at the moment, losing the Dreamer kills the crews greatest streagth. Many of the Nightmares have low Df and low Wk/Cgs and are left in a great deal of trouble without the Dreamer to move them around. Him being such a heart and soul of his crew is a big double edged sword.

The Dreamer himself lacks any real offensive abilities. He relies heavily on his Crew and LCB to do any real damage, leaving many bad situations for him.

The Dreamer relies so heavily on his spells, that solid Anti caster things such as the Witchling Stalkers can proove crippling. (Try doing his spells in their aura, not easy and it does happen). He is also extremely vulnerable to Hex because he relies on 1 or 2 things on his card to do it all. Ever had the Dreamer Hexed turn 1 and lost his primary unbury spell? It's crippling.

While LCB is certainly a powerhouse in melee, he can be managed just like every other melee master. He is actually, in general, more vulnerable to Paralyze then most Masters because he relies so heavily on getting away after his strike. Even if LCB is buried for the Dreamer, he's now lost that hammer until he spends and activation on the board Paralyzed.

The crew has 2 vital Lynch Pins leaving it a prime target for quick crews to take advantage of. If the Dreamer is dead, the crew begins to quickly fall appart. If the Daydreams get killed, the crew slows down dramatically.

The inherent clustered movements of the crew (caused by the Unbury mechanic and the range of it) and their low Df make then extremely vulnerable to AE damage. A well placed AE or Death Explosion (like Para Loco, Freikorps Specialist, Pere Ravage, etc) can wreak absolute havoc on the crew.

So this is by no means all of them, I'm sure there are several more. This is just what comes to the top of my head at the moment.

Edited September 27, 2011 by karn987

[Dolomyte]

Ahh your right! I always forget that.

@Fetid:

Alright I'll take a quick stab at it, though that "non play related" part is a bit confusing. You can't analyze it realistically without considering play implications of this. Because remember, the play implications of his synergies is what makes him so deadily.

Dreamer is Very Low Df, Low Wd, and very easy to kill. He is a Spirit, but as far as Masters go, he is the easiest of them all to kill. His only counter is his speed which is easily canceled out by models that can match it, or catch him at ranged.

The Dreamers death (or incapaciation, say Paralyze) often signifies and near auto loss for the crew. Unless the Dreamer has already unloaded his Nightmares in the right spot, or is in it at the moment, losing the Dreamer kills the crews greatest streagth. Many of the Nightmares have low Df and low Wk/Cgs and are left in a great deal of trouble without the Dreamer to move them around. Him being such a heart and soul of his crew is a big double edged sword.

The Dreamer himself lacks any real offensive abilities. He relies heavily on his Crew and LCB to do any real damage, leaving many bad situations for him.

The Dreamer relies so heavily on his spells, that solid Anti caster things such as the Witchling Stalkers can proove crippling. (Try doing his spells in their aura, not easy and it does happen). He is also extremely vulnerable to Hex because he relies on 1 or 2 things on his card to do it all. Ever had the Dreamer Hexed turn 1 and lost his primary unbury spell? It's crippling.

While LCB is certainly a powerhouse in melee, he can be managed just like every other melee master. He is actually, in general, more vulnerable to Paralyze then most Masters because he relies so heavily on getting away after his strike. Even if LCB is buried for the Dreamer, he's now lost that hammer until he spends and activation on the board Paralyzed.

The crew has 2 vital Lynch Pins leaving it a prime target for quick crews to take advantage of. If the Dreamer is dead, the crew begins to quickly fall appart. If the Daydreams get killed, the crew slows down dramatically.

The inherent clustered movements of the crew (caused by the Unbury mechanic and the range of it) and their low Df make then extremely vulnerable to AE damage. A well placed AE or Death Explosion (like Para Loco, Freikorps Specialist, Pere Ravage, etc) can wreak absolute havoc on the crew.

So this is by no means all of them, I'm sure there are several more. This is just what comes to the top of my head at the moment.

Some issues. Firstly, Hex is non-master models, if someone is hexing off the dreamers spells, your being cheated. (Conduit is also non-master. but guessing he left the dreamer near big Z after his strike)

Secondly, A stitched together unburied and next to the dreamer at the start of the the game makes him completely immune to being killed, unless your crew has a way to get across the board the first activation, bury or sacrifice the stitched, and THEN still kill the dreamer before he goes, your boned.

As for the stalkers, they are not what Fetid was talking about, he is talking about what is the dreamers weakness. Seamus is inherently balanced within himself. Just like Sonnia, or Rasputina, or Marcus are balanced within themselves. Low DF and wounds would be a balancing factor, if say he did not have his must target nightmares ability.

Regardless. In a massive activation before you even get a chance to go on turn one, it is possible for the dreamer to have had LCB attack, and potentially kill one of your models, unburied his entire nightmare horde on your crews vulnerable or important models, and then be whisked back to the safety of his DZ. Then your first model gets to activate. hopefully not near a ton of alps.

Daydreams and the dreamer dying certainly hurt the crew, but the fact that you need to accomplish that on turn one before he even has a chance to activate, mitigates the risk of you actually hurting him. (Colette and Perdita being rare examples that can also attack into his DZ on turn 1 first activation)

[Fetid Strumpet]

Chompy and the Dreamer are both the master however, as all schemes relating to the Master require both to be affected.

I don't want this to be a set up and tear down job Karn so can we just examine individual pieces of your argument for a moment?

...as Masters go, he is the easiest of them all to kill.

I would counter that The Dreamer is one of the hardest masters to kill. First of all for it to count for schemes and strats purposes you have to kill both Chompy and The Dreamer, and in 6 game turns even if you get the time to play them fully out that is exceptionally difficult to do.

But let's look at the Dreamer alone and forget about Chompy for a second.

I would personally say the Dreamer himself isn't one of the easiest to kill masters in the game. I personally would say he is one of the hardest to kill masters in the game.

A Ghost in Malifaux, Shadowy Form, Spirit, use SS and the best movement abilities in the game makes for one exceptionally difficult to kill Master. Also, barring specific counters, add a stitched and for each one you bring you have an almost 100% safety net for 1 turn per stitched you bring.

I've had Shikome, which can we agree is probably the best melee minion the Ressers have, drop onto the Dreamer turn 1, and get its full 3 attacks on him, with the Dreamer being the selected Prey and fail to kill him or even significantly hurt him.

First you have to be able to hit him, which is very difficult because you need a minion that is very fast so you can position him in correct spot to even be able to melee.

Next even if you can melee him he can Cheat + Use SS to prevent the hit. But since all masters can do that lets ignore it.

Spirit however + use SS... now that is rough because even if you get your severe dmg through it will be halved and then the Dreamer can use Soulstone to prevent the halved dmg. So if you are lucky enough to get through a Severe strike it still won't kill him all that often. And the Dreamer's Cache is 5 so he is going to have the Stones to survive the early game strike required to offset his advantages. And if you are lucky enough to be able to get that early strike in, that will most likely be the only strike you get because, as you have stated, his sheer speed is another of his defenses. He isn't going to be placed where your speedy minion can get to him again.

Now I will agree that if you discount the advantages provided by A Ghost in Malifaux, Shadowy Form, and Spirit then yes the Dreamer is easy to kill.

I think one of the best examples to refute the ease of kill Dreamer argument is the most common Scheme I face when playing against the Dreamer... Body Guard. You don't take a scheme requiring your master to stay alive if your master is easy to kill.

[Dolomyte]

Ehhh, I think bodyguard is a crutch of new players. I see that more then any scheme for a multitude of armies. even when the master is really easy to kill.

[karn987]

Some issues. Firstly, Hex is non-master models, if someone is hexing off the dreamers spells, your being cheated. (Conduit is also non-master. but guessing he left the dreamer near big Z after his strike)

Secondly, A stitched together unburied and next to the dreamer at the start of the the game makes him completely immune to being killed, unless your crew has a way to get across the board the first activation, bury or sacrifice the stitched, and THEN still kill the dreamer before he goes, your boned.

As for the stalkers, they are not what Fetid was talking about, he is talking about what is the dreamers weakness. Seamus is inherently balanced within himself. Just like Sonnia, or Rasputina, or Marcus are balanced within themselves. Low DF and wounds would be a balancing factor, if say he did not have his must target nightmares ability.

Regardless. In a massive activation before you even get a chance to go on turn one, it is possible for the dreamer to have had LCB attack, and potentially kill one of your models, unburied his entire nightmare horde on your crews vulnerable or important models, and then be whisked back to the safety of his DZ. Then your first model gets to activate. hopefully not near a ton of alps.

Daydreams and the dreamer dying certainly hurt the crew, but the fact that you need to accomplish that on turn one before he even has a chance to activate, mitigates the risk of you actually hurting him. (Colette and Perdita being rare examples that can also attack into his DZ on turn 1 first activation)

My mistake on Hex, I don't have my cards etc with me and obviously working from memory on it was flawed It happens though.

Ah but you see this is not the point of what Fetid was asking. Nearly all of Seamus's flaws can be made up for by other models in his crew to, infact I would wager this is true for 90% of the Masters in the game. This was to only be aimed at the Dreamer/ LCB and his Daydreams.

As for the Stalker thing, your off base again. I was giving you an example. He is so heavily spell reliant that it makes him very vulnerable to that kind of thing. That IS a balancing factor, being so very reliant on 1 aspect of the game.

As for Shadowy Form, it has been heavily ruled against since it's original printing and now there are many ways around it. But yes, it is generally what you try to use to keep him safe. But again, it can be dealt with and it is very very far from iron tight.

As for the Strike and return, again not what we were discussing. Your poluting the point by going into these so heavily repeated bits. Yes, we all know and realize this. I was simply trying to relate some of his weakness without delving into crew theory or into his strengths. The full strike and return wasn't even legal untill a month or so again when Companion was ruled on again and functioned differently.

You don't need to nail the Dreamer Turn 1. If you set up correctly in your deployment zone, you can make it a very bad idea for the Dreamer to drop on you. We've discussed this at length in the past. There are base blocking techniques you can use to protect your key models, and death/S2D abilities that punish the Nightmares heavily. Nevermind the vulnerability to strong armor in nearly every case (save for Alps and Lelu's 1 ability).

[Q'iq'el]

So looking at that could someone please let me know what the Dreamer's non play related weaknesses are?

But this is not only about Dreamer weaknesses, but also Seamus strengths and your willingness to adapt your Seamus list to the changing Malifaux Meta.

I agree it isn't easy, I just think that turning it always and inevitably into defeatist posts about Dreamer doesn't help solving the problem. It's not really in Dreamer's defence, as much as in defence of problem-solving approach.

The one thing is very quickly obvious to me as an outsider (never played with or against Seamus) - that you cannot count on him and his standard minions to remove the Alp bomb, Copellius etc. from the table in that one activation you get after the bomb lands.

Obviously you are not supposed to play him as a summoner, but during your game you will get these cards you need. Just not in turn 1. That IMO means a "modern" Seamus list can be light on Belles and take something else in their place, at least for starters.

Obviously making some effort to save SS would help greatly too.

This is one idea I have:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

6 Pool

Grave Spirit [1ss]

• Crooked Man
  [4ss]
  
  
• Madame Sybelle
  [6ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Dead Rider
  [10ss]
  
  
• Desperate Mercenary
  [2ss]
  
  

You can drop the DM for a higher Pool or you can take a second Crooked Man or a third Belle if you don't mind lower pool. Or take the avatar instead. It's mostly a filler, though the healing flip and Corpse Counter are nice bonuses to have against Nightmare crew.

Crooked Men are Seamus Bodyguards. At the beginning you deploy the way I deployed Lilith - Crooked Men and the rest of the "softies" with Seamus, Dead Rider alone a bit apart (within 9" so it can walk and engage in melee, but not too close to be caught in Smother if Seamus gets bombed).

With just 5 minions around Seamus you won't be able to protect him from getting engaged in melee by LCB, the way I planed it with Nicodem, but the list has some nice moves:

1. If you get initiative, you can drop Shafted mark so that Belles can Lure things into it, should The Dreamer bomb your Dead Rider. You have to be careful, because that means Seamus group won't be able to move much in the 1st turn unless you do manage to Lure the opponent into the trap (with new wording, anything that ends a move or push within 6" has to test, except for Crooked Men themselves).

If you don't get initiative, no biggie.

2. If he bombs Dead Rider, you have 2 choices:

a. Shafted mark is there. Do Seamus' Simultaneous Activation, shot LCB, Coppelius or something valuable first, cheat and Soulstone it if you can (the bigger pool is there for something, right?). Maybe you'll kill it outright, maybe you'll just draw some cards or SS. Then try to Lure some of his more valuable models into the Shafted Mark (He'll be close enough, after all he will be heating Dead Rider, and you control where that is). Hopefully he won't have good cards left to cheat, after he cheats Seamus shot. It's first turn, so at least he can't tailor his Hand for this (neither can we).

b. Shafted mark is not there (The Dreamer went first). Activate Crooked Man and spam Cave In on Alps. Again, Deployment is crucial (he should stand closer to Dead Rider than your other models), but the targets will be in range (after all that's under your control). Cheat as high as you can. It's Rst: Df, so Alps will have trouble with it. Only 2 damage from blasts, but you get full 3 templates to place around, so with 2 casts you can easily cover most of the bomb and kill all the Alps.

Essentially you can go with plan b even if you get first activation, if your opponent is heavy on Alps (just don't activate Crooked Man before the bomb in such a case). Second Crooked Man instead of Desperate Mercenary will give you some redundancy, but you won't be able to attack with both at once anyway.

Plan "a" is more powerful if he's light on Alps and brings some more powerful Nightmares with him. It both stands a chance of killing something big in the 1st turn and will draw his best cards and maybe even soulstones.

3. If he bombs Seamus' group, activate Death Rider. Mounted Combat allows you to attack anyone you want (and he has have decent melee reach too). Alps cannot do anything about it too. If you want to target something bigger, you can adjust purpose to Engage, walk and Flurry the target (again, you need to be close enough for this to work).

DM, if you brought it, can die and heal the model hit by the first bomb. Seamus will get a Body Counter for the third belle if he manages to get her.

Later in the game the crew will inevitably deteriorate, but both Crooked Men and Dead Rider should provide solid tool against Alps, so keep them around in similar arrangement to initial deployment. Shafted Marks make it so that LCB, after he pops out, cannot risk moving around (no second target for him if he kills the first), blasts kill alps. Dead Rider will actually appreciate some damage from the Dreamer, as it will change his purpose to more deadly for free - after you can heal these 2 Wds if you want.

I also don't see why Seamus can't use Live for Pain on Alps. Great way to get some Wds back after getting bombed.

Moving forward to cap the objectives and threaten his position is the hardest part of the entire deal. Dead Rider can do it, but he should stay close to Seamus. Seamus group probably shouldn't leave too many models behind or run them forward too fast, because they'll get killed... but in turns Seamus got bombed you get to move them all (after all Dead Rider will do the lifting then) and in turns where Crooked Man deals with Alps, you can move the troops and Seamus and Lure the Crooked Man to stay in formation.

One last tip is that Dead Rider can, if his trigger proc, drag things and drop them onto the shafted mark. Tricky part is ending the move more than 6" away from the mark and then pushing the target into base contact so that it ends the push within 6" from the Shafted mark. Because it is push to base contact, you can place opponent model wherever you want (as long as it is b2b).

Just a bunch of untested ideas, but that's what I'd go with first and try to refine it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Doesn't the fact that we even need to discuss "Anti-Dreamer" tactica to some extent imply that the Dreamer's power level is a little off the chart? Aside from brand new players I don't often hear any calls for "anti Ramos" tactica or "anti Nicodem" tactica.

And most of the Anti-Dreamer Tactica against the Dreamer are "position your crew precisely, play flawlessly, and bring specific models" That's a little more than a anti Kirai tactica which generally amounts to "Kill her Seishin"

Ah well I think we will just have to agree to disagree Karn. I personally feel the ability to have total board movement, and total crew strike capability to any position is OP and should not exist in the game. You obviously feel that it is totally fine and balanced and should exist in the game. Our interpretations of what is fair and balanced obviously don't match and our discussing this is going round in circles, I agree. I don't accept your arguments, well thought out though they are, and you don't accept mine.

Edit: Q' again your thinking is logical, and I do appreciate your efforts, but your anti tactica is more of the same: Position flawlessly, play flawlessly, bring specific models. In the rules as presented you will not know you are going to face the Dreamer and any anti-tactica that assumes you know this in advance is flawed and no according to the rules. Yes, magic had a fantastic point that the gaming environment is not a vacccum and you very well might get an inkling of what your opponent is going to play, but the rules as presented don't allow for that, and if that is what you need to have a significant chance, then the rules themselves are flawed.

Perhaps we should discuss Individual Strats Q, as from your posts I do judge you to be a good tactician. Assuming you don't know your opponent is the Dreamer but you know it is neverborn and you are playing ressers and the Strat is Shared Deliver a message. Which crew would you bring to go for the win. Once selected what is the Anti-Dreamer Tactica that should be employed that will give you an equal or at least solid chance at victory that doesn't require play mistakes on the Dreamers part to be effective?

Edited September 27, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Dolomyte]

I don't know what people want. I honestly don't. You made some points, I made some counterpoints. Your $$$$$$$$ was situational, my $$$$$$$$ was situational. It goes both ways, or it goes no ways.

I just don't get it.

Reiterating my previous point. I'm fine with the dreamer. I just dont think the interaction with alps is balanced. If someone would fix that I would be ok with him dropping 2 lelu's and a lelitu on my crew. I can destroy those kinds of shenanigans.

[Q'iq'el]

Doesn't the fact that we even need to discuss "Anti-Dreamer" tactica to some extent imply that the Dreamer's power level is a little off the chart? Aside from brand new players I don't often hear any calls for "anti Ramos" tactica or "anti Nicodem" tactica.

Not at all. It's a new threat in the meta* and all the players need to learn how to deal with it. Once everybody got minions needed to deal with it and general idea how to build a crew against Neverborn that accounts for his possible presence, the Dreamer himself will be phased out a bit for the next cool thing.

It's been the same with Pandora in the past.

In other words, yes, there are difficult combos and powerful builds, because they exploit weak spot in the meta game. Sometimes it's just against some crews, sometimes it is much wider. After meta-game shifts, The Dreamer will be less special.

And most of the Anti-Dreamer Tactica against the Dreamer are "position your crew precisely, play flawlessly, and bring specific models" That's a little more than a anti Kirai tactica which generally amounts to "Kill her Seishin"

Killing her Seishin is not an easy task for some crews. But there is a reason why you are supposed to hire a new crew for every game - this is a game where models bring tools to deal with stuff. Not only you have to get the models if you want to compete, but you'll have to keep getting them, as new minions inevitably make some of your counters and combos obsolete.

*Not all that new, but it took time to fully propagate and with relatively few players around, it takes longer to develop the counters... And some counters are tied in Wyrd's publishing cycle too (since many players won't bother with a minion which doesn't have official model and card yet).

Edited September 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

Chompy and the Dreamer are both the master however, as all schemes relating to the Master require both to be affected.

I don't want this to be a set up and tear down job Karn so can we just examine individual pieces of your argument for a moment?

I would counter that The Dreamer is one of the hardest masters to kill. First of all for it to count for schemes and strats purposes you have to kill both Chompy and The Dreamer, and in 6 game turns even if you get the time to play them fully out that is exceptionally difficult to do.

But let's look at the Dreamer alone and forget about Chompy for a second.

I would personally say the Dreamer himself isn't one of the easiest to kill masters in the game. I personally would say he is one of the hardest to kill masters in the game.

A Ghost in Malifaux, Shadowy Form, Spirit, use SS and the best movement abilities in the game makes for one exceptionally difficult to kill Master. Also, barring specific counters, add a stitched and for each one you bring you have an almost 100% safety net for 1 turn per stitched you bring.

I've had Shikome, which can we agree is probably the best melee minion the Ressers have, drop onto the Dreamer turn 1, and get its full 3 attacks on him, with the Dreamer being the selected Prey and fail to kill him or even significantly hurt him.

First you have to be able to hit him, which is very difficult because you need a minion that is very fast so you can position him in correct spot to even be able to melee.

Next even if you can melee him he can Cheat + Use SS to prevent the hit. But since all masters can do that lets ignore it.

Spirit however + use SS... now that is rough because even if you get your severe dmg through it will be halved and then the Dreamer can use Soulstone to prevent the halved dmg. So if you are lucky enough to get through a Severe strike it still won't kill him all that often. And the Dreamer's Cache is 5 so he is going to have the Stones to survive the early game strike required to offset his advantages. And if you are lucky enough to be able to get that early strike in, that will most likely be the only strike you get because, as you have stated, his sheer speed is another of his defenses. He isn't going to be placed where your speedy minion can get to him again.

Now I will agree that if you discount the advantages provided by A Ghost in Malifaux, Shadowy Form, and Spirit then yes the Dreamer is easy to kill.

I think one of the best examples to refute the ease of kill Dreamer argument is the most common Scheme I face when playing against the Dreamer... Body Guard. You don't take a scheme requiring your master to stay alive if your master is easy to kill.

All very good points!

Spirit + Use Soul Stone != very tough when you consider... 3 Wds. You don't beat that combination with a single big hit, you beat it with multiple smaller hits. It then becomes exceedingly simple to kill him. His Df is 2 - 3 lower then the average Cb Minion... meaning he will often need to spend a SS to dodge an attack. When he is hit, yes Spirit will often drop this down to 1 or 2 damage. But that is at worst, 1/3rd of his heathly nearly immediatly prompting you to burn another SS. In the end, he's burning SS like mad and your able to set up for a one, two, thre punch knock out on him. I'm not saying every crew/Master can do this, but enough can to make this a very viable concern for the Dreamer. His defensive abilities are set up so he can shrug off one or two big hits, not a series of rapid strikes.

Shadowy Form has many ways around it. Sure there are some cases where there is no way around it, with the exception of Stitched it's not that hard to just get rid of that Nightmare. Remember, Nightmares are not all that tough. Low Df and average Wds with few avoidance or mitigation abilities leaves them rather exposed. The Stitched, yes he is a problem. But thats why you have movement effects etc. Several crews have the capacity to just move him out of range, Sacrifice him, bury him, etc. If your stuck in a situation where you don't have those and the Stitched is bodygaurding him... then why are you even considering going after the Dreamer? Thats like going after Perdita with a Guardian on her... it's not a smart idea to try and attack her.

With the sole exception of his speed (which I admited to), he is a very vulnerable Master. Spirit is a great plus for him, but its easily countered by the 3 Wds and Df 3 (or is it 2... memory again). Now if you take his speed into consideration, yes he does become exceedingly hard to catch. Killing him is easy, catching him is always the hard part. Though I suppose that was dumb of me to make that distinction, sorry. I'll ammend my earlier statement then. The Dreamer is one of the easiest Masters to kill, but he is probably the hardest Master to catch. All in all, I suppose you are right in that it does make him one of the hardest masters to kill in the end because you have to catch him first.

Edited September 27, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

Doesn't the fact that we even need to discuss "Anti-Dreamer" tactica to some extent imply that the Dreamer's power level is a little off the chart? Aside from brand new players I don't often hear any calls for "anti Ramos" tactica or "anti Nicodem" tactica.

And most of the Anti-Dreamer Tactica against the Dreamer are "position your crew precisely, play flawlessly, and bring specific models" That's a little more than a anti Kirai tactica which generally amounts to "Kill her Seishin"

Ah well I think we will just have to agree to disagree Karn. I personally feel the ability to have total board movement, and total crew strike capability to any position is OP and should not exist in the game. You obviously feel that it is totally fine and balanced and should exist in the game. Our interpretations of what is fair and balanced obviously don't match and our discussing this is going round in circles, I agree. I don't accept your arguments, well thought out though they are, and you don't accept mine.

Fetid remember, I'm not saying he isn't OP. I am playing Devils advocate as I always have. I know the Dreamer very well and have spent a great deal of time trying to teach players how to use him. I know he is over the top in many ways and we've agreed on a large number of these. But I can also argue from either side of the fence on this and seeing things that I think could use a counter point, I jump in. In order to spur discussion and thinking, I will jump in and put myself in the line of fire to pose questions all for the sake of getting the answers and trying to get people to consider other things they may have missed.

If you want me to say it, I will. I believe, in all honesty, that The Dreamers interactions with his crews and the over-all meta of his gameplay is extremely hard to beat bordering on being to potent to the level of making him unfun to play against and having to high a chance of producing No-Win conditions. I agree Alps are a bit over the top and could use their teath blunted. I agree and have been very vocale against the Stitched Together's Does Not Die interactions with Strategies and Schemes and the power of Gamble Your Life.

And so simply, I do believe the Dreamer is in need of some changes for the sake of the game on a whole. But I would also say 2 other Masters are in the same boat as the Dreamer and the moment he recieves a change to bring him more in line, the other 2 will become the new flame point. People often ask, "where would it stop?". That's where it would stop. Tweaking 3 of the deadliest and most comonly unfun Masters in the game to play against to bring them more in line with the rest, end of story.

Edited September 27, 2011 by karn987

[magicpockets]

Doesn't the fact that we even need to discuss "Anti-Dreamer" tactica to some extent imply that the Dreamer's power level is a little off the chart? Aside from brand new players I don't often hear any calls for "anti Ramos" tactica or "anti Nicodem" tactica.

No, it doesn't. There's groups of people all claiming that various masters are "over powered" or "broken", it's just you've latched onto the Dreamer. From memory we regularly get Dreamer, Hamelin, Kirai, Collette, Pandora, Zoraida (ask my meta about that one)...

Just seems odd that the last big UK tournament (which was attended by the top players) has Seamus on the top table for first place (lost to Kirai - "oh no, ressers are overpowered") and no Neverborn crew in the top six (it was Kirai, Seamus, Marcus, Levi, Hamelin and Collette). Damn those overpowered Neverborn...

[RANT]

People need to stop whining about models being overpowered because they can't figure out how to beat them or the one crew they want to play every game doesn't work very well against them. Sure there are imbalances, but when taking into account picking schemes, strategies, factions, masters and crews - the "imbalances" balance out to quite a large degree.

[/RANT]

[Dolomyte]

I've seen some of the batreps and army lists that have been popping up in the UK tournies. Beating garbage lists does not make something any more or less powerful.

No offense to the UK, im sure there are plenty of good players there. but some of the lists you guys have gone against (especially the marcus players), would not see the light of a table at one of our tournaments.

[magicpockets]

I've seen some of the batreps and army lists that have been popping up in the UK tournies. Beating garbage lists does not make something any more or less powerful.

No offense to the UK, im sure there are plenty of good players there. but some of the lists you guys have gone against (especially the marcus players), would not see the light of a table at one of our tournaments.

Bwhahahahahahahahahaha..... what state you in, I'm checking airfare right now

[Dolomyte]

Pennsauken, New Jersey.

Philly is the closest airport. I live with ProdigalPunk and Jimp. Therapist is a few houses away. We have a spare bedroom we could put you up in and a couch to sleep on. Could probably legitimately fit two people.

If anyone wants to come hang out PM me, I'll give you the addy.

We play at

All Things Fun in Berlin NJ

Showcase Comics in Bryn Mawr Pa

Showcase Comics in Granite Run Mall, Media, PA.

Bryn Mawr is Wednesday nights.

ATF and Granite are whenever someone requests a game. I have three tables in my house. one specifically for malifaux, plus we have every model released. So you dont even need to worry about packing your crews.

Come on down

Edit- Plus, we can use your accents to go pick up women at bars, women are stupid for accents.

[Math Mathonwy]

[RANT]

People need to stop whining about models being overpowered because they can't figure out how to beat them or the one crew they want to play every game doesn't work very well against them. Sure there are imbalances, but when taking into account picking schemes, strategies, factions, masters and crews - the "imbalances" balance out to quite a large degree.

[/RANT]

So, in effect, l2p, n00b.

As for your balancing, Dreamer comes from the best faction, is the best Master and has a very good crew. He works extremely well in basically every strategy and has access to and tools to perform in the best schemes in the game. So how did those balance him out?

The idea that stuff being overpowered is impossible by default out of some divine guidance or something is extremely silly. The fact that there are lots of variables can mask imbalances to some extent, agreed, but pretending that they don't exist is an ostrich form of defense.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I disagree Magic. It isn't because I can't figure out how to beat dreamer. I can beat the Dreamer. I have an equally vocal rant about people who think the only time people complain about how OP something is is when they can't beat said master. Looking at it from a purely mechanical standpoint I think the Dreamer is OP, he has no weaknesses and too many advantages, in his synergies, minion options, and the way he interacts with the rules. It is not in anyway because I can't figure out how to beat him.

[magicpockets]

Pennsauken, New Jersey.

Philly is the closest airport. I live with ProdigalPunk and Jimp. Therapist is a few houses away. We have a spare bedroom we could put you up in and a couch to sleep on. Could probably legitimately fit two people.

If anyone wants to come hang out PM me, I'll give you the addy.

We play at

All Things Fun in Berlin NJ

Showcase Comics in Bryn Mawr Pa

Showcase Comics in Granite Run Mall, Media, PA.

Bryn Mawr is Wednesday nights.

ATF and Granite are whenever someone requests a game. I have three tables in my house. one specifically for malifaux, plus we have every model released. So you dont even need to worry about packing your crews.

Come on down

Edit- Plus, we can use your accents to go pick up women at bars, women are stupid for accents.

That would be awesome, come and teach you how to play

EDIT : Ouch, £600 for flights alone. Florida is half that lol. It may have to wait until GenCon if you guys are going?

So, in effect, l2p, n00b.

Depends. "Help I'm struggling, what can I do" - not at all. "OMG everything I lose to is so broken, it's all so overpowered, *fingers in ears* la la la la la la la la la la la la la la" - most certainly.

As for your balancing, Dreamer comes from the best faction, is the best Master and has a very good crew. He works extremely well in basically every strategy and has access to and tools to perform in the best schemes in the game. So how did those balance him out?

The idea that stuff being overpowered is impossible by default out of some divine guidance or something is extremely silly. The fact that there are lots of variables can mask imbalances to some extent, agreed, but pretending that they don't exist is an ostrich form of defense.

Yes he's good, but Hamelin, Dreamer, Collette, Pandora, and Kirai can't all be the most broken overpowered master in the game. And variables aren't about masking imbalances - they're about strategy. Malifaux is not about fair fights between each and every combination of models and schemes.

Edited September 27, 2011 by magicpockets

[Dolomyte]

That would be awesome, come and teach you how to play

EDIT : Ouch, £600 for flights alone. Florida is half that lol. It may have to wait until GenCon if you guys are going?

We should have a disney vacation for malifaux players. All of our hatred would disappear at the magic kingdom.

And yes. We will be going to gencon this year. and templecon, and adepticon.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Magic, Hamlin IS broken, or at least the infinite loops his crew can pull off and his Bully mechanic as currently written is very much broken. With the benefit of some perspective I'm not certain how totally competitive he is because there are crews and strats that become auto losses for him although he himself has Auto wins. That to me says broken, but not necessarily OP. There is a difference. But we already did this discussion a little while ago so no point in rehashing it here.

Kirai I feel is very powerful, and as currently written is not balanced vs the other members of her Faction, and I play her. She should not have a higher SS cache than Seamus for instance and an equal one to Nicodem. I don't think she is OP but she gets very very close to it. If you get all the cards you need, and are playing against living crews she very well might be considered OP, but as I play her in that issue my judgement could be clouded and I will fully admit it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Actually Magic and the rest. I just had a thought, perhaps we are looking at the issue the wrong way. Maybe you are right and the Dreamer, Kirai, Colette, and crew are not OP. Perhaps we should look at their relative power level as what ALL masters in the game should be at and figure out what changes to the masters that are not at that level could be made to bring them to that level.

For example what changes or minion options would need to be added to the game to make Nicodem the equal of the Dreamer?

[magicpockets]

Actually Magic and the rest. I just had a thought, perhaps we are looking at the issue the wrong way. Maybe you are right and the Dreamer, Kirai, Colette, and crew are not OP. Perhaps we should look at their relative power level as what ALL masters in the game should be at and figure out what changes to the masters that are not at that level could be made to bring them to that level.

For example what changes or minion options would need to be added to the game to make Nicodem the equal of the Dreamer?

Now sir, we're on the same page Much easier to tweak up than down.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think what people are missing is that Twisting Fates did for the most part balance out the game. As it goes, the Neverborne as consider to be the most OP. But, if you look at the avatars they have, they are fluffy but not really all the great. The dreamer is a perfect example. His avatar is simply not as good as his normal form. But, its fun and fluffy. While other master, like Marcus and Ramos, got much better and have easier requirements to fill before going avatar.

I was playing in a game, using Lilith vs Criid. Lilith just ate her crew up. But, when Criid went avatar, the game was rebalanced and suddenly I had to think alot more about what I'm going to do. I just couldn't rely on my high damage out put to win.

[Dolomyte]

I think what people are missing is that Twisting Fates did for the most part balance out the game. As it goes, the Neverborne as consider to be the most OP. But, if you look at the avatars they have, they are fluffy but not really all the great. The dreamer is a perfect example. His avatar is simply not as good as his normal form. But, its fun and fluffy. While other master, like Marcus and Ramos, got much better and have easier requirements to fill before going avatar.

I was playing in a game, using Lilith vs Criid. Lilith just ate her crew up. But, when Criid went avatar, the game was rebalanced and suddenly I had to think alot more about what I'm going to do. I just couldn't rely on my high damage out put to win.

I dont want to discount this arguement. but sadly none of the models, well a majority of them, are not out yet. Im guessing the book wont be fully out till next year. Tournaments in the interim mostly wont allow proxies of unreleased models, so they dont make a difference. That guy from book four might totally fix alps. but if he aint usable, he aint fixing em.

Again, all my consideration is for competetive play, In a casual game I run with the standard "don't be a dick" policy.