Neverborn Rules Discussion

[pgbsamurai]

I think Q'iq'el makes a good point. I think there is definitely a disparity between book 1 and book 2 masters, but I don't think there is a disparity between factions. From a lot of the discussion it seems like a lot of people tend to compare LCB to book 1 masters and say he is more powerful. However, most of these discussions want to just ignore the other factions book 2 masters. LCB, Kirai, Collette, Hamlin, Hoffman, they are all very powerful masters with very synergistic crews. They are all good at most strats.

[Jimp]

I am curious if the community would have any problem with these ideas?

1. alps - rare 3

2. Lelitu - Double Take - add a line at the end that states "this second casting of lure cannot trigger double take."

3. Stitched Together - Does not Die - Add a line at the end that states "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes"

4. Kidnap - Add a line "This scheme must be announced"

5. (1) Drain Power - add a line "This model counts as being killed by your opponent for the purpose of victory points, strategies, and schemes."

Actually, the point of the thread was to discuss the above issues. I think the dreamer is fine if alps were fixed. People would talk about Kirai and colette alot more if they were an alp delivery system TM.

The poll is slanted towards the interactions being broken, despite how poorly worded it was. Maybe that should be the focus of discussion instead of synergy.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Also daydreams wk should be 3, or least less than 6'

[Fetid Strumpet]

But synergy is where the game is won and lost. That, in my opinion, is why NB have the edge, and why, if you are a tournament player, your best choice to run is most likely NB. Look at all the NB masters and their crews, and the minions and you see that overall the NB masters and minions form machines that become greater than the sum of it's parts.

Dreamer: Massive maneuverability and crew placement control.

Pandora: focus on Willpower duels, which become dmg through her abilities, strips away any immunities something might have to willpower duels as a passive ability. Many very solid NB minions pump out very painful WP duels.

Zoraida: Little very direct Synergry( More to come on that) but far more flexible and diverse than almost any other crews. Synergises to a frightening extent with the next model by offering control and long range casting and summoning support to-

Collodi: Frightening speed and melee power and buffs with puppets. Ability to buff them to become beyond scary powerful. Recycles his own minions better than Ressers, whose entire faction philosophy revolves around this. Paired with Zoraida pumpimg out Wicked Dolls every turn, which become significant within a long distance from Collodi or Zoraida.

Lilith: Probably the "least" directly synergistic of the NB masters, and still very solid. No real ability to comment here as I haven't seen her played all that often.

There really isn't another faction as a whole which is that synergisitc across the board of the factions. There are individual crews that have the same or close to the same level of synergy, but not across the board.

And in this game that is what's most important. Synergies win games.

[Jimp]

But synergy is where the game is won and lost. That, in my opinion, is why NB have the edge, and why, if you are a tournament player, your best choice to run is most likely NB. Look at all the NB masters and their crews, and the minions and you see that overall the NB masters and minions form machines that become greater than the sum of it's parts.

Dreamer: Massive maneuverability and crew placement control.

Pandora: focus on Willpower duels, which become dmg through her abilities, strips away any immunities something might have to willpower duels as a passive ability. Many very solid NB minions pump out very painful WP duels.

Zoraida: Little very direct Synergry( More to come on that) but far more flexible and diverse than almost any other crews. Synergises to a frightening extent with the next model by offering control and long range casting and summoning support to-

Collodi: Frightening speed and melee power and buffs with puppets. Ability to buff them to become beyond scary powerful. Recycles his own minions better than Ressers, whose entire faction philosophy revolves around this. Paired with Zoraida pumpimg out Wicked Dolls every turn, which become significant within a long distance from Collodi or Zoraida.

Lilith: Probably the "least" directly synergistic of the NB masters, and still very solid. No real ability to comment here as I haven't seen her played all that often.

There really isn't another faction as a whole which is that synergisitc across the board of the factions. There are individual crews that have the same or close to the same level of synergy, but not across the board.

And in this game that is what's most important. Synergies win games.

I dont think the neverborn are more powerful then any of the other factions (which is why the poll is stupid). I do however acknowledge there are some broken components. If you fix alps, and Nelelitima, I think the game is back where it should be.

Are book 2 masters "better"? probably, but power creep exists in all games.

[pgbsamurai]

But synergy is where the game is won and lost. That, in my opinion, is why NB have the edge, and why, if you are a tournament player, your best choice to run is most likely NB. Look at all the NB masters and their crews, and the minions and you see that overall the NB masters and minions form machines that become greater than the sum of it's parts.

Dreamer: Massive maneuverability and crew placement control.

Pandora: focus on Willpower duels, which become dmg through her abilities, strips away any immunities something might have to willpower duels as a passive ability. Many very solid NB minions pump out very painful WP duels.

Zoraida: Little very direct Synergry( More to come on that) but far more flexible and diverse than almost any other crews. Synergises to a frightening extent with the next model by offering control and long range casting and summoning support to-

Collodi: Frightening speed and melee power and buffs with puppets. Ability to buff them to become beyond scary powerful. Recycles his own minions better than Ressers, whose entire faction philosophy revolves around this. Paired with Zoraida pumpimg out Wicked Dolls every turn, which become significant within a long distance from Collodi or Zoraida.

Lilith: Probably the "least" directly synergistic of the NB masters, and still very solid. No real ability to comment here as I haven't seen her played all that often.

There really isn't another faction as a whole which is that synergisitc across the board of the factions. There are individual crews that have the same or close to the same level of synergy, but not across the board.

And in this game that is what's most important. Synergies win games.

This argument seems a little thin. What masters in the game don't have synergies with models in their faction. Marcus, generally considered the weakest master in the game, has some great synergies with beasts.

Yes synergies can win games, but Neverborn by no means have a monopoly on synergies. Everyone has access to them.

[Uncle]

I dont think the neverborn are more powerful then any of the other factions (which is why the poll is stupid). I do however acknowledge there are some broken components. If you fix alps, and Nelelitima, I think the game is back where it should be.

I agree completely with this statement. Neverborn is currently too good because of the Alp Bomb and the Nekima/Lillitu thing. Fix those, things go back to approximate normal.

I still think LCB is a bit too good, but it may just be that his style of play resonates with me. And a lot of other people too.

Are book 2 masters "better"? probably, but power creep exists in all games.

Let's be honest: there's only four Book 3 masters that are better. 3 of them are better because of movement shenanigans: Kirai, Colette, and the Dreamer. Hamelin is just... Well, it's a bit like being in a zombie movie. You can't really stop him, no matter what you do.

Hoffman, on the other hand, just doesn't cut the mustard compared to his peers.

[Jimp]

I agree completely with this statement. Neverborn is currently too good because of the Alp Bomb and the Nekima/Lillitu thing. Fix those, things go back to approximate normal.

I still think LCB is a bit too good, but it may just be that his style of play resonates with me. And a lot of other people too.

Let's be honest: there's only four Book 3 masters that are better. 3 of them are better because of movement shenanigans: Kirai, Colette, and the Dreamer. Hamelin is just... Well, it's a bit like being in a zombie movie. You can't really stop him, no matter what you do.

Hoffman, on the other hand, just doesn't cut the mustard compared to his peers.

I don't know about the hoff yet. His box was the last to be released, or at least the last one we bought. I think if the him giving a model reactivate and then stealing it himself trick plays true he might be more dangerous then one would think.

If you ever play LCB without alps I find him far more fun. especially the multiple teddies lists. I mean teddies are terrifying, but the ideas are great. Plus the childhood games like abilities on avatar dreamer is probably one of the more creative ideas wyrd has ever implemented.

[psychocamel]

I don't know about the hoff yet.

The Hoff....

I'll never look at Hoffman the same again

[Wulfen]

This argument seems a little thin. What masters in the game don't have synergies with models in their faction. Marcus, generally considered the weakest master in the game, has some great synergies with beasts.

Yes synergies can win games, but Neverborn by no means have a monopoly on synergies. Everyone has access to them.

They don't have a monopoly, no, but they do have the best. Your argument would be valid if almost every model in the Arcanist range, or other factions for that matter, synergized well with Marcus. If a hefty chunk of Arcanists from book 2 were beasts, I'd be more inclined to agree, but that's not the case.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Exactly, it isn't that there isn't any synergy, its that the Neverborn have more direct synergy across the board through the most popular minions and masters. For example Stiched Together have a low average movement rate. With the Dreamer that issue is completely negated because he can deliver his entire crew, or portions thereof to where ever he wishes.

Stitched also have direct synergy with Pandora, they have abilities to screen Pandora's crew from ranged attacks, and their most dmging abilities are all WP based, which feeds Pandora's Engine of 1000 cuts. Pandora also strips any immunity to WP duels the opposing crew might have, leaving all models vulnerable to attack by the stitched.

Stitched are Dolls, so Collodi can apply all of his doll buffs to them making them from substantial threats to a nuclear equivalent.

This is one example, but the direct synergies which are exhibited by the current crop of NB are pretty extensive. There really isn't much that is comparable across the other faction's minion selection. That isn't to say there is none, just that the current crop as things stand is the way it is. And although I hold that NB are the most powerful faction I'm not advocating changing them all just to bring them in line, aside from one or two minor tweaks I think NB should be left alone in all their powerful glory. In time another faction will most likely eclipse them in their turn.

In any system where there are multiple options, something is going to rise to be the most optimal choice. It's just the way it is. I know that when we play we want our victories to be solely dependent on ourselves and not due to any "advantage" we might have, but really it's not always the case. It's a part of miniatures games so we might as well get used to it. We can at least recognize the fact when it crops up. The NB on the whole don't have any broken combinations. They have a few I personally think aren't good for the game considering how powerful they are and the negative play experience they create, but they don't break the game open.

[osoi]

I havent gone through everything yet but, Yes I do believe the Neverborn are strong BUT so are the other factions, in the hands of a good/experienced player all factions/masters are dangerous they just have differing learning curves and therefore perceived power curves.

Tricksiness and movement shenanigens are where their strengths lie and what may make them seem a little harder to counter because a lot of Malifaux revolves around movement. The other factions combat this (generally speaking) in different ways alhough ALL factions have access to movement manipulation, some easier than others.

[Q'iq'el]

They don't have a monopoly, no, but they do have the best. Your argument would be valid if almost every model in the Arcanist range, or other factions for that matter, synergized well with Marcus. If a hefty chunk of Arcanists from book 2 were beasts, I'd be more inclined to agree, but that's not the case.

His argument is quite valid I feel. Marcus is bad counter-example, because Marcus synergies with beasts, not other Arcanists. Waldgeist and Silurid are better models for him than most of what Arcanists have to offer. You can't simply look at his faction.

Moreover, synergies in Colette or Hoffman or Hamelin crews are no worse than what the Dreamer has.

As I said before, this is Book 1 vs. Book 2 design contrast. And there's clearly a psychological barrier here - the more master requires the players to go out of their faction and the starting box, the more he requires people to choose exactly the right minions for the Strategy at hand, the less popular he is and the more is he perceived as week. Marcus is the clearest example, but so is Som'er and Nicodem clearly isn't the most popular either, despite his relatively high power as a master. Same is true for Zoraida, who is as powerful as any other Neverborn, but the crews she can build are far harder to wrap the head around.

Book 2 crews, despite all the rules they have, are easier to collect, easier to build and don't require much practice to become relatively good with (as there are fewer models to learn). This is then being wrongly interpreted as power difference.

[Necromorph]

In time another faction will most likely eclipse them in their turn.

This has been brought up rather directly and indirectly in this thread and others. I'm curious as to what people think will happen to the other factions to "bring them in line" or "eclipse" the NB?

Its possible, sure, but if they continue to design each faction based on the current trends for those factions, then little will likely change, barring a unlikely addition of insane minions that are so strong that they can break/make irrelevant other crews' synergies just through sheer power, but without having any of their own synergy. I say this, because as has been pointed out, NB do have strong synergy, it's a core foundation of NB imo, but the other factions are not designed like NB, they focus on other things (I'm not saying they don't have any trans-master synergy, but it's not as largely focused upon), but this "across the board" synergy we're talking about just happens to be one hell of a strong factor in the game as it is now.

Models like the Exorcist are patches that shore up big gaps in some faction's designs that leave them more vulnerable to certain things than others. However, these little patch minions will not stop the NB from having synergy, and they don't really give their own crews a whole lot of direct "synergy" they're just a means to an end in the eternal quest for balance.

Unless they start making all of the crews have wicked, across the board synergy like NB, then I'm not sure we will see that much of a power swing in further books. We could also see NB just get garbage minions while everyone else gets awesome ones in a future book, but will that really be enough? More importantly.....that really isn't very likely to happen though is it?

So back to my question, what do you think, faction / minion design and progression wise, would really tip the balance and see a faction knock NB from their top spot?

Edited August 27, 2011 by Necromorph

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd imagine so. I don't have prior experience with this as I only began playing last December, but Nilus has said that in his experience we have gone through this OP argument before with guild and so on. If this is true I'll have to take him at his word, and I could definitely see the idea of the curve being skewed in guild's favor during the book one era.

I agree with you however that if current design philosophy holds true, and wyrd itself doesn't agree that the arguments of those of us who feel NB are on the stronger end of the power scale are accurate, then you may be right that NB will remain where they currently stand on the power scale. *shrug* I still love the game, and feel overall it is definitely more balanced than WHF, and will still be doing my darndest to get others interested in it. I just feel that from a competitive standpoint that NB are the equivalent of fully automatic weapons and the other factions are revolvers. You can definitely win with the revolver, and skill does impact the outcome a great deal, but the advantage lies with the automatics.

[Jimp]

This has been brought up rather directly and indirectly in this thread and others. I'm curious as to what people think will happen to the other factions to "bring them in line" or "eclipse" the NB?

Its possible, sure, but if they continue to design each faction based on the current trends for those factions, then little will likely change, barring a unlikely addition of insane minions that are so strong that they can break/make irrelevant other crews' synergies just through sheer power, but without having any of their own synergy. I say this, because as has been pointed out, NB do have strong synergy, it's a core foundation of NB imo, but the other factions are not designed like NB, they focus on other things (I'm not saying they don't have any trans-master synergy, but it's not as largely focused upon), but this "across the board" synergy we're talking about just happens to be one hell of a strong factor in the game as it is now.

Models like the Exorcist are patches that shore up big gaps in some faction's designs that leave them more vulnerable to certain things than others. However, these little patch minions will not stop the NB from having synergy, and they don't really give their own crews a whole lot of direct "synergy" they're just a means to an end in the eternal quest for balance.

Unless they start making all of the crews have wicked, across the board synergy like NB, then I'm not sure we will see that much of a power swing in further books. We could also see NB just get garbage minions while everyone else gets awesome ones in a future book, but will that really be enough? More importantly.....that really isn't very likely to happen though is it?

So back to my question, what do you think, faction / minion design and progression wise, would really tip the balance and see a faction knock NB from their top spot?

After reading most of Q'iq'els post in this thread and in some others I generally find just ignoring him seems to be the best answer. His posts often borderline on trolling. He does not address valid points and rehashes the same things over and over.

[Q'iq'el]

After reading most of Q'iq'els post in this thread and in some others I generally find just ignoring him seems to be the best answer. His posts often borderline on trolling. He does not address valid points and rehashes the same things over and over.

How is pointing out that the entire argument is misconstructed not addressing a valid point?

What has my opinion to do with Necromorph's post? (did I ever mention I think other factions will overshadow NB in time? On the contrary, I believe they are already mostly equal).

Isn't misquoting a breach of net forum etiquette to begin with? And borderline trolling?

[muribundi]

How about if Lucious' spells worked on death marshals and family , not just guardsmen , would'nt that help balance swing guild way again?

I loved the way neverborn in book 2 had multiple characteristics to synergise with their faction , the other factions need more of this.

Instead of Cuddling neverborn , other factions should emulate them.

Book 3 seems to be starting a little , especially with the cross faction models opening up a lot of optionsall over the place.

At a glance it appears to me neverborn got more in book 3 , but a thorough read through and it appears they actually didnt get too much in this book.

Edited August 27, 2011 by muribundi
more thoughts

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not sure that really anything, outside of one or two tweaks should be done at all to "rebalance" anything. While I'm firmly in the camp that believes NB are stronger than other factions, I think it would be really counterproductive to even attempt to redress it by changing existing models with the goal of "rebalancing" them. The danger is always that you'll over do it and create other problems. Again in my opinion NB are stronger than other factions. and really that's just the end of the story, and nothing except examining future additions should be done.

The few things I think should be changed...

In my opinion:

The dreamer shouldn't get additional stones for hiring nightmares.

Alps should be adjusted very slightly (but I have no idea how), and i disagree with making them rare.

Double Take should be once per cast of Lure.

At this point...that's really all I can think of at this point.

[pgbsamurai]

They don't have a monopoly, no, but they do have the best. Your argument would be valid if almost every model in the Arcanist range, or other factions for that matter, synergized well with Marcus. If a hefty chunk of Arcanists from book 2 were beasts, I'd be more inclined to agree, but that's not the case.

Marcus only synergizes with beasts, and no, not all of the Archanists are beast. LCB only synergizes with nightmares, not all Neverborn are nightmares.

Not all all Neverborn models synergize with all masters. Are there some that go across the board, or course. But I still maintain that all factions have access to models that synergize with most masters across their faction.

I'm not saying Neverborn don't have some strong synergies. What I'm saying is that every faction has access to strong synergies.

[muribundi]

Give ressers a couple of undead,horror,belle,construct,spirits, and make them rape face , and everyone will forget about neverborn.

[Hatchethead]

Neverborn have the strongest synergies because they have the highest number of bent interactions involving a small number of very specific models. All factions have them, NB simply has more, including a few high-point combos that bring the house down (hyperbole alert). Fix the "problem" models and things will get better, in my opinion. Will it suddenly make Malifaux a gleaming paragon of ultra-balance? Maybe not, but it'll be a step in the right direction.

The 'Born have strong synergies and the speed to deliver them where they will do the most damage. Temper the synergies and their speed becomes somewhat less of an issue (though I still believe speed - or at least the ability to quickly reposition models - is the single greatest contributing factor in the vast majority of competitive crews).

Edited August 27, 2011 by Hatchethead

[pgbsamurai]

Neverborn have the strongest synergies because they have the highest number of bent interactions involving a small number of very specific models. All factions have them, NB simply has more, including a few high-point combos that bring the house down (hyperbole alert). Fix the "problem" models and things will get better, in my opinion. Will it suddenly make Malifaux a gleaming paragon of ultra-balance? Maybe not, but it'll be a step in the right direction.

The 'Born have strong synergies and the speed to deliver them where they will do the most damage. Temper the synergies and their speed becomes somewhat less of an issue (though I still believe speed - or at least the ability to quickly reposition models - is the single greatest contributing factor in the vast majority of competitive crews).

I agree that Neverborn does have a lot of speed. It is definitely a strength of the faction. I don't know if it is the single greatest contributing factor for competitive crews, but it is high on the list.

As far as broken interactions. There may be a few that could stand to be tweaked. Lilitu's Double Take trigger comes to mind. I would not be opposed to a line being added that negated the trigger when in base to base.

Overall I think that if Neverborn have a power advantage it is very slight. I think a lot of the time people equate an annoying model or ability with it being overpowered, and those two do not go hand and hand. Are Alps annoying, hell yeah. But are they OP, I don't think so.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I'm not sure that really anything, outside of one or two tweaks should be done at all to "rebalance" anything. While I'm firmly in the camp that believes NB are stronger than other factions, I think it would be really counterproductive to even attempt to redress it by changing existing models with the goal of "rebalancing" them. The danger is always that you'll over do it and create other problems. Again in my opinion NB are stronger than other factions. and really that's just the end of the story, and nothing except examining future additions should be done.

The few things I think should be changed...

In my opinion:

The dreamer shouldn't get additional stones for hiring nightmares.

Alps should be adjusted very slightly (but I have no idea how), and i disagree with making them rare.

Double Take should be once per cast of Lure.

At this point...that's really all I can think of at this point.

I fully agree, only minor alteration to a few models will pull the Neverborn back into line

[Jimp]

Neverborn have the strongest synergies because they have the highest number of bent interactions involving a small number of very specific models. All factions have them, NB simply has more, including a few high-point combos that bring the house down (hyperbole alert). Fix the "problem" models and things will get better, in my opinion. Will it suddenly make Malifaux a gleaming paragon of ultra-balance? Maybe not, but it'll be a step in the right direction.

The 'Born have strong synergies and the speed to deliver them where they will do the most damage. Temper the synergies and their speed becomes somewhat less of an issue (though I still believe speed - or at least the ability to quickly reposition models - is the single greatest contributing factor in the vast majority of competitive crews).

Quoted for truth.