ProdigalPunk Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Calmdown helpfully tagged the Guild as one of the weakest earlier in this thread. The Guild took first and second in our tournament this past weekend. So, yeah, looks like it IS the case with Malifaux. Starting a new tread. As to the original post. I think it has been answered here or there amongst other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Tournament results are stupid! they're just tournament results, look at the theory. Did I miss someone actually saying this? Failure to control variables is not theory. If you're going to claim causality based on data you present, you need to eliminate other factors. You also need to have a large enough sample size to deal with random variation. Data which doesn't do that is worthless, and "the list" does none of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 @ prodigal punk: somebody said that a balanced game gives more people in playing, and gave GW example that he was wrong. I'm not offended i know what you where talking about problem is that atm neverborn has a slightly better winning factor, and it seems some people don't like that @ buhallin: calmdown indeed did that, and i have to agree with you that he indeed attacks us, we are merely defending our opinion and he calls us idiots (not with these words) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Ah, so Dolomyte's point is that different people on different sides of a debate have different ideas on how to approach the analysis? How.... shocking. :hmmmm: I'd figured it was a hypocrisy slam. Ah well, my bad then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Ah, so Dolomyte's point is that different people on different sides of a debate have different ideas on how to approach the analysis? How.... shocking. :hmmmm: I'd figured it was a hypocrisy slam. Ah well, my bad then. I think his point was that those were coming from the same side of the debate. Ratty's circular logic is probably the biggest target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I think his point was that those were coming from the same side of the debate. Ratty's circular logic is probably the biggest target. well ratty's comment said that we both are right and wrong, I agreed with ratty, calmdown kept saying he was right, and only he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 It's more that before when people would complain about neverborn issues people would constantly say just play the game and see how it plays out. the uk players have apparently run a decent amount of tournaments, with a decent turnout to each, and neverborn are far and away outperforming the competitors. Is that enough data to make a conclusion, no, but its enough data to see a trend, and the trend is not at all suprising. Neverborn are a stronger faction then the others. Your all making personal attacks at each other, calmdown was not the first or last. I could argue that every tournament I've been to, including two templecons now, has been won by an arcanist player, but I think said arcanist player would have won just as easily with neverborn should he have taken them instead. Until book three is in my hands and I can play with the models I can't tell you how the meta will shift going forward, but in its current state, with models that are currently released and available for non-proxy tournament use, the neverborn are the strongest faction to take. You can say that I've come to that opinion with Theoryfaux, you can claim that i've come to that opinion with the gencon and tournament results posted in this thread. Either way, I see the neverborn coming out on top. currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ispep Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) I actually disagree with you. Being a raid leader in many a game, I've had players switch from their mains to their alts if we needed a dirge, or a cleric, or a dreadknight to tank. And if you want to be competetive at a tournament, in any game, you need to buy the best models. There is an option for single master events in gaining ground, but that is going to skew even more favourable to the Pandora, Dreamer, Colette, Victoria players of the world. Sure, some guilds will have you bring in an alt for a night, but that alt won't be as well geared, it won't have the same DKP as your main, or other mains you may be competing with for gear, if you are even eligible to get gear with your alt. Even if you have an offspec for your main, you may be at a disadvantage when it comes to getting loot or DKP for your efforts. In any hardcore raiding guild you will have a main with a primary spec, and if you have the option to play something else, you will be placed at a sever disadvantage, which is not balanced or fun. There is also a difference between "buying the best models" and "having to own every option available". Edited August 22, 2011 by ispep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 well ratty's comment said that we both are right and wrong, I agreed with ratty, calmdown kept saying he was right, and only he I didnt say I was completely right, nor did I insult anyone past saying that ignoring hard fact is idiotic. I said that denying the fact that the game has very blatant balance issues is incredibly stupid. They're very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 which is not balanced or fun. . Neither is Malifaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 dolomyte, isn't that what I'm trying to say from the beginning of this discussion? and I won't say that i didn't attack calmdown personally, what i can say is that i did that to defend myself. i told him from the start that this won't have to get personal, and he was to stubborn to listen, same as in the discussion. i don't like fighting discussions, but some people just don't know how to listen to other people's opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Speaking purely in terms of my meta and the discussions I've had with local players ... What bothers me moreso than Neverborn v. All is Book 2 v. Book 1. Looking at the likes of Kirai (the only truly "competitive" Resurrectionist Master), Colette (the tournament no-brainer for Arcanists looking to WAAC), Hamelin (yeah) and Dreamer (...), there's a very clear power creep compared to the majority of Book 1 Masters, with the exception of Pandy, Lilith, Viks and Perdita. This obviously informs the power curve. Ressers and Arcanists were both granted a single top tier Master between Kirai and Colette. Hoffman and Lucius didn't do much in terms of the Guild curve, they pretty much stayed put. No crazy swing in either direction. With the inclusion of Book 2, these three factions seem fairly well matched, though the majority of Book 1 Masters don't stack up so well alongside their Book 2 counterparts, which is a shame. Neverborn were already competitive in Book 1 and the addition of Dreamer and Collodi did nothing to slow the murder train (quite the opposite). Hamelin and (to an extent) Von Shill and Ophelia all gave the Outcasts a nice goose. Both of these factions enjoyed a noticeable swing to the good. It's not that they're auto-win, but they seem to enjoy an advantage when it comes (strictly) to competitive Masters. Everyone got something from Book 2. The bad got good, the good got better, and the best got ... best-er. The majority of players in my FLGS share this opinion. Personally, I believe that Neverborn (specifically) enjoy a certain advantage. It often feels that the luck, skill and experience required to overcome their inherent advantages is disproportionate to the luck, skill and experience required to win with them. Yes, they take plenty of effort to learn, but once you come to grips with their complexities, the tools at their disposal are vicious. Even knowing full well what they're capable of, guessing wrong during setup can result in a serious uphill battle in a game versus Neverborn. The same could be said of any faction versus faction, but moreso in favor of Neverborn than any other, I feel. It could be argued that, in a game versus Neverborn, a Resurrectionist would be daft to choose anyone other than Kirai, just as an Arcanist should opt for Colette in 9 games out of 10. Maybe ... but that doesn't speak well of in-faction balance, Book 2 vs. Book 1. Outcasts are a strange animal. They're hard to play against simply because they have no set play style to counter. You announce "Outcasts" and I shrug, 'cause I have no idea what to expect. So there again you have a high probability of a bad match-up. Choosing a crew to combat an Outcast player with a deep model selection is a game of Russian roulette at best, so who do I select? My Book 2 Master, of course. This is strictly from an ultra-competitive standpoint, of course. The good news is, if Wyrd takes a good, hard, impartial look at Book 2 and makes a concerted effort to reel it in and reduce the power level to reflect the baseline set back in Book 1, the world of Malifaux will be a better place. Book 2 v2 represents a real opportunity. I'm glad no new Masters were introduced in Book 3, to be honest. Edited August 22, 2011 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Fine, I'll take that bet. Eliminate one target (secret): 1 VP Eliminate one target (declared): 2 VP Eliminate three targets (secret): 2 VP How exactly is that a blatant advantage? Well, simply put, you don't have to kill the targets, they only have to not be in play at the end of the game. That's a huge change. That means that if I'm a Kirai player and I sac 3 seishin that you happened to choose, you get 2 VP just like that. It also means that I can lose my models in indirect ways and it still counts for scenario purposes (if I kill the protegee with poison it doesn't count since she wasn't formerly killed by one of my models) and so on. Do you get why it's such a big deal now? Edited August 22, 2011 by Razhem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I didnt say I was completely right, nor did I insult anyone past saying that ignoring hard fact is idiotic. I said that denying the fact that the game has very blatant balance issues is incredibly stupid. They're very different things. aah, but i told you that i know neverborn are slightly better. you didn't try to listen to something we had to say, you directly attacked our opinion, without an open mind to listen. calmdown, i know you are right about the neverborn part, some are stronger than any other, but why are you so fixed on this? does it matter? you ALWAYS will have stronger crews/armies, as i already said that. I apologize if i insulted you, or made you feel bad or unhappy in any other way, (and let's remind you that the first thing you said to me was that i had a lack of knowledge of the game) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Great post This. Though I'm not sure there are any plans to do a Book2 version2, are there? If there are, maybe there's some hope yet for this game as a tournament game. calmdown, i know you are right about the neverborn part, some are stronger than any other, but why are you so fixed on this? does it matter? you ALWAYS will have stronger crews/armies, as i already said that. Take your pick of: I'm a game designer, obviously bad and easily fixable game design annoys me I'm passionate about games I love, and wish the game was better so I could enjoy playing it more I'm a competitive gamer and want to enjoy this game competitively, but I hate the fact that to do so I have to play the same broken faction as everybody else This is a discussion forum, and I enjoy a good discussion on a relevant topic instead of the usual "here's some fan-made models I designed" inane rubbish I find the fact that some people are so easily able to dismiss obvious imbalance amusing and worth discussing Edited August 22, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 This. Though I'm not sure there are any plans to do a Book2 version2, are there? If there are, maybe there's some hope yet for this game as a tournament game. I'm too much of a noob in the game to actually judge any of this and my main crew is one of the power masters (Kirai) from what I'm reading, but I'd say that a rebalancing with V2 cards would be enough and maybe do a V3 just purely to buff some of the more despised masters. I've never played Marcus, but there has to be a reason why he is the butt of most jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm too much of a noob in the game to actually judge any of this and my main crew is one of the power masters (Kirai) from what I'm reading, but I'd say that a rebalancing with V2 cards would be enough and maybe do a V3 just purely to buff some of the more despised masters. I've never played Marcus, but there has to be a reason why he is the butt of most jokes. problem with that is that evrything has to be rewritten, just because we have a small discussion here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Well, simply put, you don't have to kill the targets, they only have to not be in play at the end of the game. That's a huge change. That means that if I'm a Kirai player and I sac 3 seishin that you happened to choose, you get 2 VP just like that. It also means that I can lose my models in indirect ways and it still counts for scenario purposes (if I kill the protegee with poison it doesn't count since she wasn't formerly killed by one of my models) and so on. Do you get why it's such a big deal now? No, not really. It may open it up to a greater effectiveness against crews which tend to sac their own stuff, but that's not the same as being game-breaking. It just makes it like so many other things in Malifaux - situationally good depending on the scenario, your opponent, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I didnt say I was completely right, nor did I insult anyone past saying that ignoring hard fact is idiotic. I said that denying the fact that the game has very blatant balance issues is incredibly stupid. They're very different things. "If you don't agree with me, you're incredibly stupid." Not entirely sure how that's not a pretty direct insult to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Take your pick of: I'm a game designer, obviously bad and easily fixable game design annoys me I'm passionate about games I love, and wish the game was better so I could enjoy playing it more I'm a competitive gamer and want to enjoy this game competitively, but I hate the fact that to do so I have to play the same broken faction as everybody else This is a discussion forum, and I enjoy a good discussion on a relevant topic instead of the usual "here's some fan-made models I designed" inane rubbish I find the fact that some people are so easily able to dismiss obvious imbalance amusing and worth discussing well, do you have your 3th book? maybe that will be one of the changes you talk about I'm passionate as well about games, but making the game better? how? you tell me, and not with make neverborn weaker. I'm a competitive gamer as well, I win with my rasputina crew, agains realy cheesy and competetive lists, not always, but whats the fun in ALWAYS winning, this is a discussion forum, not a forum to attack other people. and i love a good discussion, if I can talk to someone with an open mind, to listen to my opinion, without making such a fuss you know i would love to have this discussion with you on a different chat, because right now we are anoying other people, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm a game designer, obviously bad and easily fixable game design annoys me What games gave your designed and published? This isn't being sarcastic or jerky. I would just like to see if I have seen your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 "If you don't agree with me, you're incredibly stupid." Not entirely sure how that's not a pretty direct insult to anyone who doesn't agree with you. He said if you dont think the game has issues your incredibly stupid. I think we can all agree the game has issues. Like the avatar marcus sculpt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Nevermind, missed an important fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 He said if you dont think the game has issues your incredibly stupid. I think we can all agree the game has issues. Like the avatar marcus sculpt. i know the game has issues, every game has, creating the perfect game? doesn't exist, he also said that i have a serious lack of knowledge of the game, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Though I'm not sure there are any plans to do a Book2 version2, are there? I don't know. I could have sworn I read something from someone official mentioning a "Book 2 v2 Project", but I can't back that up and I don't want to perpetuate a rumor. You would have to ask someone with a top hat, I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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