Avatar Leveticus Discussion

[karn987]

So the old man has gotten onto a Horse... time to figure out the full implications of this! Creating this for the tactical discussion thread on the guy and see what we can come up with. So I'll jump right into some of it!

First off the block is Manifesting him, his two requirements are:

1)"Levticus must have been killed or sacrificed twice."

2)"Leveticus must Summon two Steampunk Abominations with the Necrotic Unmaking Spell."

FYI: These are copied word for word from the book, so yes they are exactly as printed

In my opinion, they are really not that hard to get done. If you play to them you find yourself playing to Levticus's usual play style and really you only go a bit out of your way if your looking to Manifest quickly. I know some people don't like to use Necrotic Unmaking... but it's a great spell and if the target had 9Wds or less, 1 Unnatural Wasting puts them in the 3Wds or less kill zone for the spell.

Requirement 1

The first option is easily doable in the first 2 turns and if you have his Soulless Life Scheme your already probably working towards this. So right off the bat, follow the same strategies for dieing really fast... ie: Necromantic Sacrifice (-1), Death Leason's (-3), then Blessing of Desolation 3 times (-3) and then he loses his last Wd at the end of the turn. Alternatively if you have enemies in range, you can just have someone else in his crew kill him.

So honestly its easy to pull off, if your looking to do it quickly though it does mess with your hand (since you lose your hand each time normal Levy comes back to life) a bit and may slow you down. Alternatively, if you wait till mid game to start doing this, well as every Levy player knows it's just a fact of life with Leveticus, he will die at least twice during most games.

Requirment 2

This takes a bit more doing, but generally I find myself doing this twice in most games. It's all about timing and looking for the easy models to snipe with this spell. You can get two in one turn if you have your minions set them up for you (just drop the target to 3Wd or less), or Levy can do this with 3 spells very easily, though it takes more time. Either way, again it's not that bad to pull off and if you can't quite do it, well you only need to do 1 requirement to manifest.

So overall... I see his Manifest Requirements as spot on... yes a little easy but Avatar Levticus comes with a hefty price.

The Hefty Price

From my experience with playing him during PT and his final version, he is one of the few Avatars that really dictates his crew. What I mean is, if you want to get the most out of him you want to play with the Riders... and they are very expensive. This also locks part of your crew into place every time you plan on using him which cuts down on your options. Obviously you may not find yourself needing all 4 of them.. your own play style may only have you needing 1 or 2 of them.

Personally though... I find this nothing to complain about even if it is a bit of a negative. The Riders are all great models and it just takes some getting used to playing with them.

What Riders to take...

• Dead Rider: In my opinion, it may not be much but at least it helps off set Slow Dissapation. Considering how many Wds he can bleed in a turn... I've been very happy to have this!
  
• Hooded Rider: This is my favorite second only to the Mechanical Rider. A. Levy is a terror once he gets into melee and this just adds insult to injury. Paired with his ability to come back once you kill him, this is a huge kick in the teath. Your already able to just run him into melee on a whim and not have to worry to much about him dieing, this just makes it even better.
  
• Mechanical Rider: She may give him the best ability out of all of them, Melee Expert makes A. Levy an absolute Terror and extends his potential hit range to 13" which while nothing massive is still rathe far when you consider the damage of his weapon. The bump to Df is nice and does make a noticable difference, but the Melee Expert easily overshadows it. 3 Hits from his Death Touch for anyone unfortunate enough to be next to him when he activates..
  
• Pale Rider: This gives him an automatic trigger for his The Face of Death Trigger which is the real power behind his Death Touch weapon. If you play Levticus regularly, you already know how useful this can be. If not... well this basically assures Leveticus can always get his damage flip to an even flip, letting him cheat for that extremely high Severe.
  

Death and Rebirth Cycle.

Yup he still has one though it is much different now. No more relying on Hollow Waifs... instead he relies on his Riders!

The ability driving this is The Fifth Rider. When he is Killed or Sacrificed during the turn, a new one of him (just like his normal form does) is placed in BB with a Rider during the Closing Phase and both models suffer 2 Damage.

Obviously the Riders are much tougher then the Waifs ever were but besides the Dead Rider, none of them are very good at healing... and at the high SS cost of them this does wear on you. The big bonus is, he can very easily jump from one part of hte board to the other with his death. It plays an interesting mind game with your opponents because suddenly every Rider carries the additional threat of being a spawn point for A. Levy returning from the dead.

This also makes the Dead Rider a good choice for your crew because he is easily able to heal up the lost Wds from A. Levy spawning on him. But at the same time the Hooded Rider isn't a bad choice because he can throw up Night and hang around the edge of a ranged crew unscathed.

Oh yes... he is a Spirit

I know a few people who I talked to missed this little tid bit when they first looked it over... A. Levy is a Spirit. Now he does bleed Wds something fierce if your using his Unfathomed Purpose and Arcane Understanding, but Spirit and Hard to Kill can make him a real pain in the ass to finish off.

But probably the biggest part of this is that Spirits ignore Severe Terrain & Impassible Terrain so there isn't a lot of hope in slowing him down. He'll come right through cover at your opponent and is able to easily lurk in protective terrain like Forests until the right moment. He can go right through a protective screen of models and go for the Master directly. This one word carries a huge implications for him and gives him a lot of options other Masters don't have.

So that's it for now. There is so much more to cover and none of this is even fully flushed out but hopefully it gets people talking and discussing.

Edited August 16, 2011 by karn987

[LoboStele]

Doh, you beat me to it by 15 minutes, LOL. Oh well, here's what I had written up regarding him.

From a basic standpoint, Levi doesn’t change all THAT much. Honestly, the major thing you’ll notice is that he loses all of his spells except for Necrotic Unmaking. So, he won’t be doing quite so much long-distance damage. But what he loses there, he more than makes up for in many other ways.

Mobility: Avatar Levi goes WAY up in this department, as he doubles his Walk distance, and actually has a Charge now as well. He is a Rider now after all, so he ought to be able to do some good moving around.

Defense: Well, he goes up a bit here, and gets a couple extra Wds, but the biggest boost is that he’s now a Spirit. Half Dg baby.

Combat: Not too much changes here. Still the apocalyptic 0/1/12 damage stat. Biggest thing to pay attention to is that he actually LOSES the :crows for his Cb trigger. More on that later.

New Spells: The new Spells that Levi gets are pretty interesting. Two of them deal with the Riders, one allowing you to summon one Rider per encounter, and one allowing you to cause Riders with 8 to shift their cycles to the next step. So gives you some good control over them. The last new spell allows you to gain Soulstones when living enemy (I think) models die within the aura. Pretty sweet actually, depending on your opponent’s crew. The thing to watch about Levi’s spells though, is that you’ll likely have to be discarding cards in order to utilize most of them. He doesn’t start with any suits attached to his Ca anymore, and you don’t have (0) Death’s Lessons. But he gains an ability that allows you to discard any number of cards you want at the beginning of your turn, and add those suits to your Ca. So with the right control hand, some of the spells will be REALLY easy to pull off. Still, you need a 13 with a :masks and one other suit to summon the new Rider, so I’m thinking in most cases, you will want to use (0) Death’s Lessons before you Manifest, just to have the best chance possible for summoning that extra Rider.

Speaking of Riders….why do you want them? Because Avatar Levi is the leader of theRiders, and he’s pretty dependent on them. Not that you can’t play ALevi without any Riders, but I just wouldn’t recommend it. Anytime a Rider kills an enemy model, Levi gets to make a Healing Flip (this should include when Levi kills stuff too). Also, Levi gets bonuses based on which Riders are in play:

• Dead Rider: Levi gets Regen 2
  
• Hooded Rider: Levi gets effect that causes damage to attacking models when they hit him with Melee strikes
  
• Mechanical Rider: Levi gets (+1) Melee Expert and +1 Df (and maybe +1" to his melee Rg?)
  
• Pale Rider: Levi gets the + :crows to Cb he needs to auto-trigger The Face of Death
  

So, you can see the clear benefit to having Riders in play. Also, Levi still has a bit of a die-and-come-back mechanic, in that if he dies during a turn, he can come back into play next to a Rider still in play, though both Levi and the Rider take some Wds. Again, this makes the Dead Rider a really good choice, since it has Regen and can heal with its (0) Spell as well.

Lastly, Levi still has a few card mechanics. You go back to drawing cards at the beginning of a turn like normal. But you can choose to discard and re-draw some during that time, taking a Wd for each one. But then Levi also has a (1) action that allows him to discard some cards and heal Wds. So, you have ways to control it.

Overall, he still stays much a melee monster, killing things with a single touch. It’s going to be tough to pull off sometimes if you don’t have the Pale Rider on the table though, so I feel like he’s probably going to be almost an auto-include for Avatar Levi lists. The Undead Rider is also really impressive, since it can Regen 1 Wd each turn, then it can heal 2 more with its (0) spell, and then Levi can use his (1) spell to have the Riders change their cycles, which would allow the Dead Rider to heal another 2 Wds. So, healing 5 Wds per turn, while still getting to use the rest of its turn to attack stuff is pretty awesome, IMO. So, there will be some cool things you can do with Levi to support the other Riders, as well as doing some killing himself. The Pale Rider also has the neat synergy of healing 2 Wds when it kills something, as well as giving Levi the healing flip too.

I think trying to run all 4 Riders is going to be really tough in anything less than 40SS games. That said, I think it will be worthwhile to look at including 1-2 of them in the basic build, and then summoning in a 3rd when Levi manifests. The primary list I’m thinking about at the moment is:

2 Levi and Avatar Attached

8 Alyce

9 Pale Rider

8 Hooded or Mechanical Rider (probably Hooded vs. Guild/Outcasts, Mech vs. other factions)

6-9 points for SPAs, depending on how many SS you want.

I don’t think you’ll need a Canine Remains in these builds, since you’ll be looking to Manifest. So will have to carefully protect the 1 Waif during the first 2 turns. However, Levi’s Manifest steps are a piece of cake, IMO, needing to either die twice, or turn 2 enemies into SPAs. So you can Manifest easily in Turn 3, though I would typically recommend waiting till turn 4 when you can do it as a (1) action instead of a (2), as you’ll need the leftover AP for the (all) spell to summon your other Rider.

OK, so those are my thoughts. Feel free to chime in, ask questions if I didn’t explain anything clearly, and strategize!

Edited August 16, 2011 by LoboStele

[RolfJ]

Nice Job guys!

But i just had a quick question, can meet the Necrotic Unmaking requirement by taking two Steampunk Arachnid and use the Self Destruct action in the first turn and cast the Necrotic Unmaking spell on the scarp counters they leave behind.

[TheBugKing]

Nice Job guys!

But i just had a quick question, can meet the Necrotic Unmaking requirement by taking two Steampunk Arachnid and use the Self Destruct action in the first turn and cast the Necrotic Unmaking spell on the scarp counters they leave behind.

When Steampunk Arachnids Self Destruct you sacrifice them. When a model is sacrificed it doesn't leave counters behind. If you could somehow get a model in Leveticus' crew that has controlled detonation then you could use your stated procedure.

[Cunning]

They don't leave scrap counters behind if they self destruct do they?

I know the swarm only leaves behind 1 if it self destructs.

[RolfJ]

They don't leave scrap counters behind if they self destruct do they?

I know the swarm only leaves behind 1 if it self destructs.

It doesn't say anything about it on the V2 card:

(1) Self Destruct: 2. Dg 2. Sacrifice this model.

source: Arcanists V2 cards pdf

[LoboStele]

Don't have the book in front of me, but I'm quite sure the Requirement says you have to turn two enemy models into SPAs via Necrotic Unmaking.

[LoboStele]

It doesn't say anything about it on the V2 card:

source: Arcanists V2 cards pdf

Sacrifice automatically means it doesn't leave any counters. Only when models are killed do they leave counters, or if an ability specifically says something about it, like the Self-Destruct on the 9pt Swarms.

[RolfJ]

It was worth the try.

[karn987]

Don't have the book in front of me, but I'm quite sure the Requirement says you have to turn two enemy models into SPAs via Necrotic Unmaking.

The requirement doesn't... but thats because Necrotic Unmaking only works vs Models, not against Scrap Counters and only makes the SPA from Enemy Models

Necrotic Unmaking:

"This model suffers 1 Wd. Target enemy model suffers 3 Wd. If target is killed by this spell, it does not generate any Counters. Summon 1 Steampunk Abomination into base contact before it is removed from play."

So sadly that will not work. You gotta kill an enemy model with the spell.

The spell that makes them from Scrap Counters is Entropic Transformations

Edited August 16, 2011 by karn987

[RolfJ]

The requirement doesn't... but thats because Necrotic Unmaking only works vs Models, not against Scrap Counters and only makes the SPA from Enemy Models

Necrotic Unmaking:

"This model suffers 1 Wd. Target enemy model suffers 3 Wd. If target is killed by this spell, it does not generate any Counters. Summon 1 Steampunk Abomination into base contact before it is removed from play."

So sadly that will not work. You gotta kill an enemy model with the spell.

The V2 card saids:

(1) Entropic Transformation:

(CC: 14t/ Rst: Wp /Rg: 12) This model suffers 3Wd. Target an

enemy model with 2 Wd or fewer or a Scrap/Corpse Counter.

Sacrifice the target. If target was a living or Undead model, or a

Corpse Counter, Summon one Hollow Waif. If the target was a

Construct or Scrap Counter, Summons one Steampunk Abomination.

source thingy

[karn987]

The V2 card saids:

[url=http://wyrd-games.net/mint/pepper/orderedlist/downloads/download.php?file=http%3A//www.wyrd-games.net/StatCards/Outcastsv2.pdf]source thingy[/ur]

It does! But that is not Necrotic Unmaking... you have to make the 2 SPA's via Necrotic Unmaking.

2)"Leveticus must Summon two Steampunk Abominations with the Necrotic Unmaking Spell."

[RolfJ]

O wait!

You're right.

My bad!

[FearLord]

Great write ups guys - this is the kind of thing I've been waiting for! More Avatar write ups needed from people with the book!

Avatar Leveticus sounds great! As I'm already planning to get the Pale and Mechanical Rider for my Hoffman list, I might as well branch out into some Leveticus for fun - I do like the idea of fielding all the riders together...

[DireTrollJake]

Well, this all sounds fantastic I was worried he really needed all or you sell yourself short, but really it's more of a customize your master thing goin on. I look forward to rolling out the 2 unreleased horses the most, of course //rolls eyes.

[LoboStele]

Well, this all sounds fantastic I was worried he really needed all or you sell yourself short, but really it's more of a customize your master thing goin on. I look forward to rolling out the 2 unreleased horses the most, of course //rolls eyes.

Oh, I definitely think you could play him without any of the Riders, IMO. He just won't be AS strong. Still, getting a healing flip when you kill stuff is always nice, and pretty much anytime you play him, you ought to be able to summon at least one at some point.

[infernosolarc]

Thanks for the excellent information.

Leveticus is my only master at the moment, so I was really looking for this information.

Sounds like Alyce's place in my crew is getting more and more tenuous.

The horses, and the looming Ashes and Dust make it tough to fit her in the list.

[dakrulz55]

anyone else think that levi avatar is missing some oomph? i mean summoning a rider is cool and all but you have to sacrifice a model and a SS. his list for the avatar is verry tailored and limited and if they kill your little guys before he goes you could end up not having someone to sacrifice to bring out. also his cg is 10 like the other riders but he doesnt have mounted combat or melee exp unless the mech rider is on the board. i can see a few problems as you have to waste so much time if you want to get mileage out of his avatar i wonder if he can recover from time spent manifesting + summoning a rider, where as regular leve would have had 2 turns slinging spells and extra ss killing peoples as its what he is good at.

[Necromorph]

So, I've been of the opinion that the Levi Avatar is extremely situational. Sure, he can work with 4 riders or just 2, but he still strongly influences list selection....possibly more so than any other avatar.

So...how do we work around this? He can only summon 1 rider per encounter, so just summoning the riders isn't going to be an option...you'd have to prioritize which ones you want. I do agree that the riders aren't the only way to run him, but with the riders, that limits his whole "steampunk" style that they built up in the first 2 books (SPA's, desi, alyce, A&D). So, you have to choose. Which can be good and bad. In a competitive setting, I feel like a riders list will make you play at a specifically high level because taking x amount of riders with severely limit your ss cap for tournaments (55, 75, etc) and force you to drop things like A&D or jack daw in favor of more riders that may or may not benefit you in "most" games.

He's a strange avatar, and I need at least the mech rider to come out so I can proxy them and try to figure out the best way to use him.

[infernosolarc]

Total Theory-faux, but it seems like the Rider List is a decent counter to the Raptor-spamming Austringers or spell proof Sonia Criid.

Stay back for a few rounds to Resurrect a couple of times, the charge in. Specifically, the hooded rider can give any ranged crew fits.

That being said, is that actually more powerful then just using the Hooded Rider in a regular SPA based list? Or taking a Guardian to keep the Waif's alive?

With the Avatar form losing the Crow needed to power up his Touch of Death, and the loss of Unnatural Wasting, you really have to need the extra melee punch to be worth it. Or so it seems to me.

[Math Mathonwy]

"Hello ladies, look at your uncle, now back to me, now back at your uncle, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped breathing and came back from the dead a couple of times, he could smell like me. What's in your hand, back at it me. I have it, it's an enemy's corpse. Look again, the corpse is now a Steampunk Abomination! Anything is possible when your uncle smells like me. I'm on a horse."

[Visquaz]

I'm on a horse.

+1

Made me laugh

[karn987]

Well the biggest thing he has going for him is Death Touch + his Speed. If you have the Crows or have the Pale Rider for the + Crow to his CB, then he is absolutely lethal. You do some of your old Levy recycling tricks. Ie you press one side of the board, nail something hard and die. Then you respawn far away, say on a Pale Rider your flanking with and charge into their exposed flank. That Severe damage is an instant kill for anything without Armor, Object, or Hard to Kill.

I've found I generally only need 1 from A. Levy to kill most models and if he had Mounted Combat, he would be very broken. He's Spirit remember, manuverability is where half his true power lies. He can come from some very odd angles and if you respawn him cross flank like I talked about, it really catchs people off guard. Plus the other thing that will take some getting used to, is his immense amount of card drawing power. Unlike normal Levy who is shackled by the restrains on his cards, A. Levy is a card drawing machine. Unfathomed Purpose and Arcane Understanding help him taylor his hand. If your going to go all out with him and annihilate something, you do those and drop him to 1 Wd. You then go beserk on your target and hopefully someone is foolish enough to kill you. If they don't kill you, have one of your models do it if it suites you, then you just respawn next to one of your riders and hit from another angle.

Also because A. Levy is Melee focused and has little to no fear of dieing, you kinda want to charge him in and keep him in melee. If their are living models around him, cast Soul Harvest to reap a bunch of Soulstones. I did this against Gremlins one game and gained 4 Soulstones when my Pale Rider followed up with a few well placed shots.

I think that without a doubt, he is strongest when he has all 4 riders with him... but as we have seen the cost of this is immense and really dictates his crew. While it is a stronge crew, the problem is keeping them alive until hiim Manifests. With any luck you made a few SPA's with your Necrotic Unmaking Spell so you can bring one Rider back if you need to.

I'm currently experimenting with 2 Riders (generally Hooded and Mechanical) and a few other minions at the start. I push really aggressively with Leveticus and try to get him up in my opponents face for the Necrotic Unmaking and then Manifest ASAP. With any luck I've got it down to a (1) to Manifest and I'm already in Melee range or very close to it. I make sure to use my Casting Expert AP before I manifest and then BANG! A. Levy reaches out and starts touching people. My Riders tend to hang back or move for the flanks preparing for A. Levy to appear and die. Thanks to the Riders speed they can quickly enter combat when they need to or just stay out of danger. Especially the Mechanical and the Pale, they can easily hover on the edge and just pick away at things while Levy and his pile of distractions charge the center.

Situational?

Simply... yes. But I find almost every Avatar to be rather situational so thats not a bad thing... I think that is a very good part of their design. That said, there are definitly times I would not Manifest him and then there are times where I would.

He is very good for tipping the field of play in your favor if you and your opponent are about equal. Mainly because of a few things:

A) He is to dangerous to leave alive.

As long as he has a Rider left alive, death matters little to him.

C) He is extremely manuverable for something that deals so much damage.

You can do a lot of what you did with the old Leveticus of forcing your opponent to deal with him. Even if they kill him he will be right back, but if they don't kill him he will stay where he is. Then if you have a SS or two up your sleeve you can make him a huge pain in the ass.

Edited August 17, 2011 by karn987

[CannibalBob]

"Hello ladies, look at your uncle, now back to me, now back at your uncle, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped breathing and came back from the dead a couple of times, he could smell like me. What's in your hand, back at it me. I have it, it's an enemy's corpse. Look again, the corpse is now a Steampunk Abomination! Anything is possible when your uncle smells like me. I'm on a horse."

I love those commercials.