Nicodem vs. Dreamer: Undertaker's Quest

[Hatchethead]

Last but not least' date=' if you use your Decay to target the opponents, you will be getting these MZ without the need for Arise. Sure, not that many at once, but if you need only 1 or 2, that's not a hindrance. (Just cheat the casts high and use blast to heal your minions, while the direct damage part goes on the opponent, rather than other way around. It's easier to get blast off if you target your own minions, and it makes sense if you want to go around targeting restriction, but the damage on the blast is constant and lowish, while the damage on the target can be cheated up and get pretty high)[/quote']

Sorry, I'm partway through reading your response (thanks for taking the time to pound that out), and I wonder:

The Empty Vessel trigger requires a living or undead defender in order to create MZ, doesn't it? The Dreamer's Nightmare-heavy crew puts the kibosh on this, more often than not (unless I'm mistaken).

[Q'iq'el]

Sorry, I'm partway through reading your response (thanks for taking the time to pound that out), and I wonder:

The Empty Vessel trigger requires a living or undead defender in order to create MZ, doesn't it? The Dreamer's Nightmare-heavy crew puts the kibosh on this, more often than not (unless I'm mistaken).

Yup. That was more of a general comment, pointing out how much easier it is to get MZs if you don't stress about getting many of them, against normal opponents. Should've made it more clear.

You have to count on Mortimer and Arise for that one, against the Dreamer. Even then, if you hurry with Exhume in the turn 1 and 2, you'll raise 2 MZs by the turn 3 and that should be early enough - if you have "real" minions, not the Dogs, they can buy you time and if you happen to get attacked, you can spend that soulstone or two on defense, until MZs are up.

More importantly, if you play aggressively and mess up some of his plans, the opponent will react too. The more you force his hand, the more likely he is to make mistakes. The more you are occupied with running your own circus, the easier it is for him to set all his crew for the big strike, in peace.

That's probably the biggest argument against any "summoning" crew - not just Nicodem.

[Hatchethead]

I may be exaggerating the disadvantages of Reanimating a bit' date= but that's to put in perspective the *real* cost of summoning undead models. Obviously, you are supposed to do this when needed and there are plenty of situations where a new summon is the best choice you can make. Just don't make it your default strategy, without realizing the staggering cost of every new undead you create. Is saving these 2~3SS (price difference between a Dog and a Crooked Man or a Punk) worth wasting Nicodem's time, 1~2 AP and 1~2 Control Cards (at least 1 high :crows at that) ?

Cheers, Q'iq'el. I very much appreciate the differing point of view. I can see both play styles as having merit dependent on the encounter (strats, enemy faction and master, etc.). In no way do I see there being only one "right way" to play Nicodem, or any master for that matter.

Versus the Dreamer, I'm inclined to want surplus counters, and quickly, but that's just my noobish first impression. Once I have some genuine experience under my belt I'll be better able to discuss and reevaluate my position. For now, all I can say is: thanks again for imparting your wisdoms!

[ravenborne]

Response to the waste of AP...

I didn't used to play Nicodem this way, and I don't always by any means. Its an extreme measure to deal with alpha strike crews like the dreamer. Its just another way to play, and it makes Nicodem a cool master because he has these kinds of options.

So, in "alpha/deep strike" type of games, I don't care to use my AP to move up. My opponent is coming at me and fast. ( I do move when needed, I will explain in a bit).

But you are right, you are going to need those AP and don't want to spend the whole game reanimating. Which is why you need to do it quickly and on the first turn, and second turn max. If you wait for the slow appearance of corpse counters you will be reeling too much to reanimate anything.

First let me say taking dogs to kill seemed wrong to me too, until I stared playing Kirai. Then I started thinking of it like this: what if MZ just cost 2 SS like Kirai's Seshin? Buying 10 might be a good idea, because, they are really useful when Chompy deep strikes in. So I can buy 5 dogs and kill them, then I am just buying 5 MZ, and might get a free one from Mort.

Then, if I do reanimate them, I am trading early AP for more SS worth of models. A Punk Zombie gives me a conversion of 2 SS to 5, really good. A F.Construct gives me 4 to 7, pretty good, and a R. Necro gives me 8 to 10, which isn't so good. However, if my goal is to save AP then I might have to make the less ideal trade.

So if I wanted, I could take all Nico's first turn actions and potentially have turned my starting 35 SS crew into at least a 43 SS crew. More importantly, I need those body guards! Sometimes I would rather have three PZ's and thats a 44 point crew with 3 MZ left for a hit. I make my decision based on whats happening in the game.

The point is though, you want those new body guards right around nico and the goal is to make sure you can keep him out of melee range. With this wall around him, once the dream strike hits, you have a couple options:

1) Start blasting Decay into the combat. You want to heal your own guys and try and blast out those alps, or whomever.

2) Start Rigo/Paralyzing the nasty models.

In any case, in this plan rarely move nico and mort, instead I use belles to pull them upfield as well as "Fresh Meat!". Nico has to walk every once in a while, or he can just use an AP to make a new Belle who then moves him up, same difference. This way, I am not using any of Nicos AP to move. Its really absurd but it actually works.

I call this the "funeral procession" btw. Its quite fun to see them all moving in a big group up the table with a little belle at the lead, being pushed and pulled.

[Atherzon]

As a mostly Guild player that has been considering delving into the dead, one of the things that has been holding me back is the popular style of play for Nicodem. The thought of spending my first turn or so killing my own models and summoning new ones to be competitive was a turn off. Thanks for the refreshing take on Q'iq'el.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Atherzon

[Q'iq'el]

I'd say my intuition is the other way around. I'd want more counters, if I faced a slow crew that threatens me in turn 3+. That gives ample time to raise a shambling horde.

Against someone who can attack turn 1, I'd rather be ready to fight the moment I deploy. Counters are, after all, a secondary resource.

Dreamer may bring a non-living crew, but it also is a crew of expensive models with so-so survivability. Not as glass as Nephilim, but not much better either. That's also worth considering, when you stack your options against his. Do you really need numbers advantage to beat it, or is it better to not give him time to pick up the fight on his terms?

Availability of counters is a matter of mechanic. Sure, you need the resource to raise your minions, but there's also a certain guaranteed amount - every minion you bring will drop his worth (except for the Hanged/Jack Daw I guess).

The choice of the crew is a matter of tactics. You need resources to execute the tactics you plan, but you should never sacrifice the tactic for the resources. To put it other way around, it isn't IMHO a matter of there being many ways to play Nicodem (there are, just each way is good against certain scenario, not all are good in all scenarios), but a matter of chosing the tactic you can execute.

Clearly, the tactic you can execute against the Dreamer is a tactic based on low corpse counter count. To bring Canine Remains, IMHO, means to abandon any tactical options and advantages you may have in hope, that you can regain it in the second half of the game. That is a very dubious proposition, when you face a master who fights in the first half of the game and will win by turn 3, if you don't stop him.

[ravenborne]

Wanted to also say that don't always this method against a crew that is going to sit back against me, but its possible to do so, as you do get a great buildup. Against those crews, I can go to the other extreme...Ive even taken both Bette Noir and Killjoy both delivered at the same time by a smaller model like a vulture (works well for this) or a necropunk, who can leap and use slow to die.

You really can go both ways, and the strength of nico in my opinion is not what starts on the table, its what shows up.

[ravenborne]

I'd say my intuition is the other way around. I'd want more counters, if I faced a slow crew that threatens me in turn 3+. That gives ample time to raise a shambling horde.

Against someone who can attack turn 1, I'd rather be ready to fight the moment I deploy. Counters are, after all, a secondary resource.

Just to be clear, the entire point of all that is get a strong fast defense around Nico, better than what you can start with. And yes, totally depends on the Strategy if you can do this.

So I am curious, have you faced a grisly strike by Dreamer crews and how did you deal with it? because I kept losing against dreamer, it was far too easy to get on top of Nico, who is kind of squishy and prefers range.

What good is moving Nico up in the first turn against such crews? Serious questions, I want to gain all the knowledge I can from Nico players.

[hippieshopper]

Naw, you don't need to kill off your own dudes unless you really want to.

I like Nico because he's great at bringing his minions back.

As far as the Kidnap thing, you don't want to "give" your opponent VP. VP is how you win, not summoning. It's funny if you do that...get lucky and get 6 CC and make a RN and a Frankie but you have to make sure you can deny their other scheme or strategy.

If you know you can block their strategy completely, then by all means do that.

Crooked Men are amazing (I know I am late on this)

They usually don't fall for walking into the land mines but it seems to create a wall between them and Nico, at this point I usually use 2 AP (from crooked men) to cast cave in with my highest non-Crow cards. To whittle them down, after the opponent activates, you have Nico finish them off with Decay, thus getting you some MZs.

ALSO~~!!!

Don't forget his Trigger on Decay if you have some tomes.

Putrefy is very good for getting cards. As well as from Reanimator.

[Q'iq'el]

If I want to kill 5 dogs, Exhume a counter and then Arise 6 MZ, that means at 3 activations before Nicodem goes.

- Mortimer to Exhume and whack a dog (may not kill it).

- Something hitty to kill 2.

- Something hitty to kill other 2.

- Nicodem.

Nicodem can't kill own minions reliably. I understand Sebastian can deal with Dogs in one activation, bringing it down to 3 activations, but that's still 2~3 movements your opponent gets in between.

Sebastian is not the worst model for Nicodem's crew, but he isn't all that stellar either and he's taking the points you could spend on something better (Jack Daw, a Hanged, Bête's still good even without Paralyze etc.). In fact, the very reason why Sebastian can deal with Dogs easily is that the Dogs have better synergy with McMourning, IMHO. If you could take Sebastian instead of Mortimer, then it'd perhaps be a bit better proposition, but against Nightmares you want Mortimer even more than usually, right?

If I start with my fighty crew, turn 1:

Activate Mortimer, Companion Nicodem.

If I go second, that's 1 activation my opponent gets before I put my Fog up (if needed), raise my first MZ (if needed, better to delay till turn 2 and get 2 with one cast) and generally get my defenses going. After his 2nd move, I'll have 2 Shafted Marks down. If needed, I can actually companion a Crooked Man and have Shafted Marks down before he even moves (depending on the initiative). And even then, I'm still quite likely to out-activate him (esp. if he burries all his stuff), which is just great.

[hippieshopper]

Yeah, I either have Nico go first or last...never usually in-between

As for taking Morty AND Sebs...I don't recommend that.

Sebs healing is not that great, and he's usually a big target because nobody likes getting a sawblade to the face.

Morty is a lot better because Nico can do something with Corpse Counters, not Body Parts.

The hanged are pretty good for their morale duels, but the dreamer's crew is...well you know for yourself.

Bete Noire is good, with or without paralyze as Q'iq'el said. You can get Paired 8Cb, and +2 Damage Flips with a flurry...that's a lot of hurt. She can pop up wherever she wants, just keep a 10 of something in your hand....if they get past a Df of 9.

[Q'iq'el]

What good is moving Nico up in the first turn against such crews? Serious questions, I want to gain all the knowledge I can from Nico players.

Well, there are many factors. It is more about being free to play the game instead of trying to squeeze Zombies out while the opponent is setting up his win.

First, there's going to be some advantageous terrain on the map, but you are not guaranteed to deploy in it. If you move, you get there before you have to confront your opponent.

Secondly, you get to put the Fog and Bolster Undead up turn 1. That's a solid proposition, considering he wants to engage you early, right? Debuff his charge range to 3" and boost your minions' Df - nothing to complain about.

Then there's the short range of Decay and Rigor Mortis. He doesn't want these spells to hit him in the turn 2 (esp. Rigor Mortis), but if you don't Reanimate, your Nicodem will go first or companion with Mortimer and go second. Either way, he can't guarantee winning initiative and even if he does, he will have only 1 activation, at most, before you cast. That means, his models have to stay more than 13-16" away in turn 1, to be perfectly safe.

That's a pretty sweet spot, because to get something within 3" of Nicodem, he needs to start at least 15" away, right? If he decides to risk it and gets that close and you are free to move, you can simply kill or paralyze the model. That's what I'm speaking about when I say you can start messing up his plan - he has to accept some losses to do what he'd get for free, if you focused on getting these Corpse Counters up.

I'm not sure I've seen all the Dreamer tricks out there, but there clearly is the range game going on. Whether it's Insidious Madness, Stitched Together or Alps, he needs to get them within 3~4" (especially if the Fog is up). If you can keep them at hands length, you gain options and you can deal with them piecemeal. But to do that, you need to free Nicodem's APs.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[hippieshopper]

What good is moving Nico up in the first turn against such crews? Serious questions, I want to gain all the knowledge I can from Nico players.

Control.

If you have Nico or Vultures near the middle you have some serious battlefield control.

You have the threat of pounding anything that comes through with Decay or Paralyzing them.

I prefer not using vultures though.

Also, if you want to be a jerk, you can try using a Shikome and targeting the Dreamer as your prey.

EDIT: I am not trying to copy you Q'iq'el...really =]

[Q'iq'el]

EDIT: I am not trying to copy you Q'iq'el...really =]

We think alike, but your advice is much more reader-friendly.

[Hatchethead]

Against someone who can attack turn 1' date=' I'd rather be ready to fight the moment I deploy. Counters are, after all, a secondary resource.[/quote']

My concern (on paper) is keeping Nico alive long enough to matter without having to blow my stones and cards. LCB can drop in and wreck face on turn 2, then sling shot out 12" and leave little avenue of reprisal. Granted, it takes his entire crew to do this and he leaves a bunch of exhausted models in his wake, which is exactly when his precious minions are vulnerable. If I then have a handful of control cards and a pool of stones, I can do some damage.

I think of it like fighting King Hippo in Punch Out! You block or dodge his telegraphed power punch, then wind up and plant one right in his gut. CANVAS.

I want MZ in the picture to help defend against that initial strike, because that's a Ht 4 brick house of poison-Melee Master-Onslaught nonsense I'm about to deal with. Sure, I've got soulstones and maybe a Grave Spirit to absorb the pounding, but ...

I don't foresee me taking 5 dogs + Sebastian + Mort against the Dreamer, to be honest. I want two, maybe three counters in turn 1. That's two dogs plus Mort's Exhume. I want two MZ up and shambling by the time Dreamer shows up and a third counter to turn into something like a PZ or a Crooked. The bottom line for me is, I need to maximize that turn 1 (0) Arise because I'm likely going to need Bolster from turn 2 onward.

If I can grab initiative, run a Mort + Nico activation chain and have a Belle up and strutting herself at the top of turn 2, plus my two MZ and my shiny new PZ, suddenly I feel a whole lot better about things. Then I prep for the inevitable hurricane punch and plan my counter-attack, get Mort in place to Fresh Meat my old arse up the board.

I also agree with raven in that moving is of secondary import versus the Dreamer, at least at first, as more often than not he's steamrolling toward you at 21" per turn with the intention of dropping a fat load of Nightmare on you (be they Alps, Chompy himself, Stitched for a Gamble-fest) regardless of the strategies in play. He's the "master" of putting his opponent on the back foot. I can appreciate the concept of wanting to reverse that with a combat-ready force right out of the gate, but I'm not sure Nico can compete without MZ. LCB can ignore every model you put in his way, nothing around Nicodem will stop the pain train; he is placed 3" away and towers over them with his Ht 4, swings for the fences, then he's gone. I feel like the attrition play might be the only play ... AT FIRST (I know, I keep saying that). Late turn 2 or early turn 3, switch gears. The last thing I want to do in turn 1 is move closer to that big jerk.

... of course, this is my impression on the heels of two "learning" games, so I can't say I'm at all confident in my assessment.

Maybe Nico + Grave Spirit would be more than enough, with 1 MZ able to absorb a full AP Chompy bomb, I dunno.

I also like the thought of including the dogs but not throwing them away. The Bolstered Canine Remains + Hunting Dogs -2 Df + the activation chain with Mortimer shouldn't be ignored. Then at least I force him to spend his AP taking out those canines for the Kidnap. I still get the counters, maybe they do a little damage ...

Actually, I think I'm proposing a tactic that occupies a middle ground between the 5 dog slaughter and the no dog elite combat strike force. Play to one strength for the first half, switch it up at half time.

Just thinkin' out loud. Don't take me serious.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Hatchethead

[ravenborne]

Can't wait to hear how it works.

I know we all have different experiences, and for my part I am speaking to the post inquiring about tactics against the Dreamer. These are extremes I don't use against most masters.

If you were to play the people I play, you would be faced with a turn two onslaught of chompy, defensive stance alp bomb, copelius and other nasties all trying to kill your master and heavy hitters. I don't know how you guys are standing up to this with some of the tactics you're using, but I certainly don't have all the answers and am willing to listen to others experiences for this Master scenario.

One other important thing about the 5+ dog summon: you don't lose good cards, you gain them this way. I also run 8 souls stones in this list.

Edited August 17, 2011 by ravenborne
actually 7 with grave spirit...

[Hatchethead]

Can't wait to hear how it works.

I'll do my best! Yeah, the fact that Reanimator provides control cards is an important consideration.

To be clear, I love the idea of the 5 dog crew. It's definitely something I want to try. I should have been more clear when I said I wouldn't take a 5 dog list against the Dreamer; I mean to say I won't take it at 25ss. In a 25ss Nico crew, I'll sacrifice as many turn 1 corpse counters as I think I can spare if it means having a bigger pool.

Plus, I really want to bring Daw. I can see him being a spanner in the works of the Chompy deep strike engine. If not Daw then a regular Hanged. Whispers from Beyond could be a major deterrent, a useful area denial tool.

Maybe I'm out to lunch, I dunno. It's all theory for me at this point. I guess we'll see.

Cheers!

Edited August 17, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

Another thought from Dreamer perspective is this: slinging LCB far is VERY card consuming, and many a time I finish with no card in my hand, this really calls for a counter attack with Jack's trigger (the auto-kill one). When I play Dreamer typically I sling LCB very far turn 1 and 2, and usually kill one model per turn. By turn 3 I have closed in with my daydreams and I then unburried the mother load; against Nico this is only as good as can be since killing the minions sees them coming back, but if Nico is unprotected that would be my choice target. Again a Jack with aura well placed will prevent LCB from cheating/sstoning and will make it very unlikely to do much damage, let alone if the Grave spirit is there.

The issue with Reanimating early and basing your game on it is that if you don't get those crows early in the game... badam bam! And it happened to me many times (beside the fact of wasting hours of painting in 1 turn... )

I think I'd go for the way of the middle: not 5 CCs but Mortimer plus myabe 1 or 2 dogs, the rest being strong minions (and therefore messing up with your opponent's Kidnap at the same time)

Edited August 17, 2011 by poulpox

[Math Mathonwy]

Secondly' date=' you get to put the Fog and Bolster Undead up turn 1. That's a solid proposition, considering he wants to engage you early, right? Debuff his charge range to 3" and boost your minions' Df - nothing to complain about.[/quote']

Now I'm really confused. You bolster on the first turn (when it's unlikely that there will be serious combat going on) and then, on the second turn, you summon the MZs (or else die to the LCB)??

That seems very backwards.

I would take two canines and Mort and then useful stuff like Crookeds and Punk Zombies and Bete and Hanged and whatever else. First turn, activate a canine first and attack the other canine. If you kill it, great, if not, no worries, just activate it and try to do the same to the first one. Now you should have two canines on the brink of death or a corpse counter and a canine.

Mort makes a counter and kills the canines. Three counters. Then you activate the rest of your force with Nico going last. He activates, raises the MZs and summons something. A Belle is a good choice as then you aren't losing movement.

Now you're in the same position as in your suggestion except you have 2 MZs ready to withstand the Dreamer's wrath and you can bolster on the second turn. You aren't down any AP (except one for Mort for killing the canines) as the Belle took care of the walking for you and you aren't down any SS as two canines = one Belle. You also have used extra activations which means that the opponent had to reveal his positioning to you before you committed Nico which can be very useful depending on terrain and strategies.

What am I missing here?

[Q'iq'el]

Now I'm really confused. You bolster on the first turn (when it's unlikely that there will be serious combat going on) and then, on the second turn, you summon the MZs (or else die to the LCB)??

That seems very backwards.

Why? You Bolster and Fog, so that you and your most important models don't get charged turn 1. You wait with Arise till you have more than one counter - because you don't want to use that Arise too many times a turn and you try to optimize the gains.

You have to choose when you let the Bolster down - if the Dreamer is taking off your minions as he prepares to bomb you turn 3, turn 2 is a better moment for Arise than Turn 1 and there's no reason not to put that Bolster up turn 1. At the very least it will be a deterrent.

What am I missing here?

I like your plan, but that's based on having Canines, which I dislike altogether. In my plan you have to wait for the second token with Arise, because Mortimer is the only source. On the other hand, I value having Fog up first thing turn 1 and as soon as possible turn 2. In connection with Crooked, it's a very solid defense against almost everything.

[Math Mathonwy]

Why? You Bolster and Fog, so that you and your most important models don't get charged turn 1. You wait with Arise till you have more than one counter - because you don't want to use that Arise too many times a turn and you try to optimize the gains.

You have to choose when you let the Bolster down - if the Dreamer is taking off your minions as he prepares to bomb you turn 3, turn 2 is a better moment for Arise than Turn 1 and there's no reason not to put that Bolster up turn 1. At the very least it will be a deterrent.

I would think that Dreamer would strike mostly on turn 2, maybe 3 if strategy demands it. But if you don't get the MZs turn 1, it signals to the Dreamer player that turn 2 won't get bolster so were I playing Dreamer, I would aim to strike then.

I like your plan, but that's based on having Canines, which I dislike altogether. In my plan you have to wait for the second token with Arise, because Mortimer is the only source. On the other hand, I value having Fog up first thing turn 1 and as soon as possible turn 2. In connection with Crooked, it's a very solid defense against almost everything.

Fog does limit the Lure-movement, so I would try to survive without it through turn one simply relying on the relatively long distance between the starting crews and since I should out-activate him, I can advance with Nico once the danger is over.

I do like your approach to Nico as a dangerous Master in itself as opposed to the summoning extravaganza but certainly two canines are tolerable even in that approach. I agree that front-loading on the corpses through having five or six canines gives the opponent too much wiggle room in the beginning stages of the game.

[Q'iq'el]

I would think that Dreamer would strike mostly on turn 2, maybe 3 if strategy demands it. But if you don't get the MZs turn 1, it signals to the Dreamer player that turn 2 won't get bolster so were I playing Dreamer, I would aim to strike then.

Assuming he doesn't want to deal with Crooked Men and work around the Shafter Marks first. If he's into taking risks the entire defense strategy won't be all that effective, even if it can grant a lucky win.

We're trying to discuss it in a bit of a vacuum, because we don't know what type of the crew Nic is going to face and in what conditions.

As a general tactic, I'm thinking a strong push is going to throw his tactics off more than strong defense.

Fog does limit the Lure-movement, so I would try to survive without it through turn one simply relying on the relatively long distance between the starting crews and since I should out-activate him, I can advance with Nico once the danger is over.

Can't Dreamer transport Lilitu in range of Lure turn 1? She's a Nightmare, she can travel buried. Nicodem being pulled out of the Shaft Markers protection, or even worse into his own Shaft markers would be pretty disastrous.

I do like your approach to Nico as a dangerous Master in itself as opposed to the summoning extravaganza but certainly two canines are tolerable even in that approach. I agree that front-loading on the corpses through having five or six canines gives the opponent too much wiggle room in the beginning stages of the game.

I think 2 Canines are workable. I just dislike the idea of going with the exact approach the Dreamer is strong against.

[Math Mathonwy]

Can't Dreamer transport Lilitu in range of Lure turn 1? She's a Nightmare' date=' she can travel buried. Nicodem being pulled out of the Shaft Markers protection, or even worse into his own Shaft markers would be pretty disastrous.[/quote']

True. You do have an activation in between, though, so if that happens you can activate Nico prematurely, raise the MZs, put the fog up and walk twice if needed. But yeah, Lilitu is extremely annoying when trying to position things like shaft markers and Jack's aura and such.

[ravenborne]

I went back through some games and drew a few hands out to test after this discussion. It made me realize that I almost always only use four of the six corpses on turn 1, as sometimes I have to channel for the crow. If I am low on crows then its a f.construct for the cards.

That usually leaves me 2 MZ do deal with an attack. Then you have options on future turns.

With that in mind, certainly just 3 dogs and Mort could work, you just would not have the extra defense of MZ, or only get 1 or 2 reanimator off.

Another HUGE thing about playing Nico is the 0 activation issue. I hate having to waste my zero on arise once the enemy is in range when I could bolster instead.

[ravenborne]

I had a thought after listening to the the Gamer's Lounge podcast on the Master's. If you are only taking two dogs, I wonder how it would work to take Datsu Ba instead of Sebastian. Takes more activations, but do this:

1) First dog attacks second dog twice for 2

2) second dog attacks first dog twice for 2

3) Datsu ba kills both dogs creating gaki, maybe onryo

Then its 2 corpse counters for Nico and 2 new models as well.

hmmm...