Sculpting female models

[Silveri]

Would I be going against the grain if I said ilike both archetypes, as long as the story is well-told?

That being said, I still like large breasts on minis.

This is just a theory I created based on the strong polarization I've seen in threads where fantasy vs. realism meet (not just regarding breasts). I'm more interested in whether I get support for it or against it and I'm interested in whether most players (something like 75%) could be roughly categorized this way. Probably no-one is purely of either variety.

Trust me, I do hope I'm wrong on this, but if I'm right, it perhaps could help us understand each other more. As I'm personally more of the latter type (for instance, I don't have a huge superhero comic book collection and I've never read the Conan books), I sometimes have trouble understanding the people who are more of the former type. If the kicks we get out of miniature wargaming are different, no wonder we have trouble understanding each other.

[ispep]

I appreciate models based on their technical composition. I don't care if they are supposed to be fertile young women perfect for creating offspring, or feeble old men. The aesthetic composition is not nearly as important as the technical execution of the techniques used.

Like wise, I am more interested in mechanically strong heroes/heroines who can justify their cost. Fluff is just that, fluff. It has no bearing on in-game effectiveness. Its just there to be there.

My goal in miniature games is not to lust after a 2 inch metal figurine, but to play the game and win. Looks and story have nothing to do with that.

[Dark Alleycat]

The new Conan has a good amount of potential,and certainly far more accurate to the book's description. Arnold does a great barbarian,but Lean and Panther-like he is not (most common description of Conan)

Anyways,I think that the clothing should make a bit more sense..Now,as an example..Taelor. Her fluff describes her as bawdy,and more then willing to flatten the skull of a guy who pisses her off. So,her dress reflects that,the scrap of cloth barely covering her nipples.

and as far as it goes,I would actually say that Criid would be very likely to have makeup. As an example of why,when you take a look at photos of businesswomen,they tend to have subtle makeup but it is there. Given what she does,fighting in politics as well as in person,I think she would take that extra bit of time to present that image. Same with her clothing. Some females wouldnt use makeup,but I firmly believe some would.

And ye gods I hate the desperate merc female sculpt...Im sorry,but the face looks off,the pose is..utterly ridiculous and would be physically painful to actually attempt.

[dsmiles]

This is just a theory I created based on the strong polarization I've seen in threads where fantasy vs. realism meet (not just regarding breasts). I'm more interested in whether I get support for it or against it and I'm interested in whether most players (something like 75%) could be roughly categorized this way. Probably no-one is purely of either variety.

Trust me, I do hope I'm wrong on this, but if I'm right, it perhaps could help us understand each other more. As I'm personally more of the latter type (for instance, I don't have a huge superhero comic book collection and I've never read the Conan books), I sometimes have trouble understanding the people who are more of the former type. If the kicks we get out of miniature wargaming are different, no wonder we have trouble understanding each other.

Well, if I had to pick just one, I usually prefer the "accidental hero" variety over the "mega-hero" variety. Accidental heroes with large breasts (or that are super-macho), that is.

[paradox]

It could also be the American culture and its fascination with big boobs and a tendency to extrapolate specific likes as universal?

Says the man with a large-breasted model as an avatar???

[Silveri]

Well, if I had to pick just one, I usually prefer the "accidental hero" variety over the "mega-hero" variety. Accidental heroes with large breasts (or that are super-macho), that is.

No Rincewind for you then.

[Math Mathonwy]

Says the man with a large-breasted model as an avatar???

...and? It's one of my better paint jobs and the first Malifaux mini I painted since I had a good idea for the paint scheme (different shades of off-white for the whole mini with the blindfold in strong red).

It's not my favourite sculpt of the line or anything. I would like the sculpt better if it had smaller breasts as currently it looks sorta ridiculous. Also, as Tuesday noted, the garb is extremely silly for a warrior.

Edit: eh, just for you.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[edonil]

Jumping into this for the first time (and not really totally sure as to why...) I prefer realism in this area. My favorite female sculpts so far have been Colette and Rusty Alyce, although I'm thinking that Rasputina's alternate is going to edge that out. Large breasts actually tend to kinda bug me, even in real life (yes I'm a guy, yes I'm straight). Now, as to your question about preferences in heroes, I'd say the imperfect ones, who have to struggle and fight for everything. While they have their own unique talents and strengths as everyone does, the odds are still so against them that their rising above them seems that much greater.

[Buhallin]

There seems to be a curious trend growing here of polarity between players, both male AND female. There are those who assume that all players here like playing with macho men and big-boobed women, and those (an apparent minority) who complain about the lack of depth and common sense in those stereotypes.

So these are our only two options then?

For someone complaining about shallow archetypes in characters, you certainly seem perfectly willing to throw around shallow archetypes in real people.

[Math Mathonwy]

So these are our only two options then?

For someone complaining about shallow archetypes in characters, you certainly seem perfectly willing to throw around shallow archetypes in real people.

The third option would be, in this sort of division, "never big boobs/macho" and there haven't been any people of that sort. I mean, since the division described is "X", "X + everything else", the only thing left out is "everything but X".

So the only valid way of leveling the particular criticism you leveled is if you are a "no big boobs, no machos ever"-type.

[Devon_v]

I've done extensive research on this, mostly be watching a $$$$$$$$ ton of japanese porn. Also some anime and the like. and I can say that america is not the only culture that likes large breasts.

In my research I've discovered that the Japanese like fetishes. Or perhaps I should say are more willing to be open about them. Unless it's a Japanese cultural taboo. They seem to have a lot of fun with western stuff.

and as far as it goes,I would actually say that Criid would be very likely to have makeup. As an example of why,when you take a look at photos of businesswomen,they tend to have subtle makeup but it is there.

Criid I think is a great model and character. She looks very professional and capable. I especially like her pose and the fact that's she's smoking, it creates a sense of ease and confidence on the battlefield. That's the same thing I like about the new Perdita. Her lazy grip on her pistols as she sets off the explosives is a confidant, even cocky stance. She's also way more cowboy. Just give me a woman who looks like she belongs on the battlefield.

[Buhallin]

The third option would be, in this sort of division, "never big boobs/macho" and there haven't been any people of that sort. I mean, since the division described is "X", "X + everything else", the only thing left out is "everything but X".

So the only valid way of leveling the particular criticism you leveled is if you are a "no big boobs, no machos ever"-type.

This isn't even close to being true.

Group A: Everyone loves big boobs!

Group B: These stereotypes lack depth.

I don't suppose that maybe, just MAYBE, someone could think that SOME people like big boobs? Or that maybe you could not especially care about the size of boobs without thinking it's a horrific insult delivered via lazy art?

Or maybe even think that while Wyrd trends towards a standard fantasy trope, for a range as small as they are they have a higher percentage that diverge from it? Or that we can actually agree that boob size is a very shallow thing - which makes obsessing over it while ignoring and dismissing the strength Wyrd puts into its female characters even more shallow than those who think they should always have big breasts?

Seriously, if the only options you can come up with are "MOAR BOOBS!", "We're deeply concerned over the stereotypical representation of fantasy women", or your new "Eewwwww, boobies!" your view on this is even more shallow than the "MOAR BOOBS!" crowd (which certainly exists, but is hardly the only option for anyone who disagrees with you).

It's a weak straw-man aimed at dropping anyone who disagrees with Silveri (and you) into the "MOAR BOOBS!" category, and it's more insulting than anything Wyrd's ever put to metal.

[Silveri]

So these are our only two options then?

For someone complaining about shallow archetypes in characters, you certainly seem perfectly willing to throw around shallow archetypes in real people.

Did you actually read my post before making that accusation? I'm more than happy to have that theory debunked. Please, if you feel you don't fit the theorem, tell why. The current trend seems to be that people who criticize the hypertrophied sexual characteristics in miniatures tend to prefer the "lesser heroes", but there's not as much support for the idea of people preferring masculine heroes not really minding having miniatures that are cheesecake instead of "realistic" proportions and equipment (given the setting).

..

Plus, I really need to emphasise this, as people continually tend to misread me. I originally did not say that big boobs were unrealistic or overexpressed, more that the big boobed minis looked like they had implants instead of naturally big breasts.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Silveri

[CannibalBob]

All in all I tend to prefer monsters, robots, zombies, and anything goblin-esque when it comes to miniatures. I don't mind female models, but I generally don't gravitate towards them. Malifaux is a bit different, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that at least half of the masters (if not more) are female.

Some of the female masters I prefer more due to their theme than the master itself. For instance, while I like the Kirai sculpt, what drew me to her and her crew is the japanese theme and not the fact that she is female.

[Math Mathonwy]

This isn't even close to being true.

Group A: Everyone loves big boobs!

Group B: These stereotypes lack depth.

I don't suppose that maybe, just MAYBE, someone could think that SOME people like big boobs? Or that maybe you could not especially care about the size of boobs without thinking it's a horrific insult delivered via lazy art?

Or maybe even think that while Wyrd trends towards a standard fantasy trope, for a range as small as they are they have a higher percentage that diverge from it? Or that we can actually agree that boob size is a very shallow thing - which makes obsessing over it while ignoring and dismissing the strength Wyrd puts into its female characters even more shallow than those who think they should always have big breasts?

Seriously, if the only options you can come up with are "MOAR BOOBS!", "We're deeply concerned over the stereotypical representation of fantasy women", or your new "Eewwwww, boobies!" your view on this is even more shallow than the "MOAR BOOBS!" crowd (which certainly exists, but is hardly the only option for anyone who disagrees with you).

It's a weak straw-man aimed at dropping anyone who disagrees with Silveri (and you) into the "MOAR BOOBS!" category, and it's more insulting than anything Wyrd's ever put to metal.

Nope, you clearly didn't get it. Try reading Silveri's post again and then your criticism.

Also note that Silveri's point (the way the sculptors sculpt boobs makes them look fake) is different from mine as thread drifted (I would like to see as much variety in female sculpts as I see in male sculpts).

Edit: for a guy complaining about strawmen, you deployed an insane pile of them in that post

Edited August 15, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Buhallin]

Nope, you clearly didn't get it. Try reading Silveri's post again and then your criticism.

What makes you think I didn't get it?

Trying to make some point about which group likes underdogs more doesn't make the group division any less insulting or wrong. Nothing in the rest of the post has anything to do with recanting or softening that division. It's entirely based on an separation of everyone in this conversation:

- those who assume that all players here like playing with macho men and big-boobed women

- those (an apparent minority) who complain about the lack of depth and common sense in those stereotypes

And most especially note the insulting tone of the description of the first group, combined with the restrained reasonableness of the second. The first assumes EVERYONE thinks like they do, and they LIKE overdone physical characteristics. The second is the calm, reasonable, persecuted minority who are only objecting to stereotypes (and everyone knows stereotypes are bad).

When the initial division is so utterly flawed as to not exist, any attempt to derive characteristics (such as a preference for underdog characters) is immediately and by simple definition flawed.

[Sliver Chocobo]

All in all I tend to prefer monsters, robots, zombies, and anything goblin-esque when it comes to miniatures. I don't mind female models, but I generally don't gravitate towards them. Malifaux is a bit different, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that at least half of the masters (if not more) are female.

Some of the female masters I prefer more due to their theme than the master itself. For instance, while I like the Kirai sculpt, what drew me to her and her crew is the japanese theme and not the fact that she is female.

It's half exactly

[Silveri]

Now who's making accusations here? Yes, the stereotypes were rash and I wanted to find out why they didn't fit. Perhaps I could have phrased myself better, and I originally meant to intend to add a phrase where (if such a division were possible), the latter would think the first as childish brats and the first the latter as uptight snobs. I didn't feel that to be a necessary add-on.

I'm primarily interested why you take this so personally? Does the description fit and you don't like what it implies (again, these are your interpretations, not mine - there's nothing wrong in liking big breasts and macho heroes)?

I personally noted a polarization and wanted to see whether there is a correlation.

[Buhallin]

I'm primarily interested why you take this so personally? Does the description fit and you don't like what it implies (again, these are your interpretations, not mine - there's nothing wrong in liking big breasts and macho heroes)?

Wow. Really? That's where you're going to take this?

No. Just... no. I find it insulting because I don't think ANYONE here actually fits your first group - least of all me, and certainly not everyone. I find it insulting because it's such a false, wrong division and is completely unworthy of meaningful discussion.

I don't take it personally because you've somehow found me out and I'm ashamed of it - quite completely the opposite. I take it personally because you're lumping everyone - including me - into a group which isn't even close to reflecting the actual feelings of anyone involved.

I personally noted a polarization and wanted to see whether there is a correlation.

You did not note a polarization - you created it. The division you're basing your correlation on simply doesn't exist.

[Nathan Caroland]

:ajustice