Stitched Together / drain souls and Slaughter

[Dolomyte]

I know this is a resolved thread, but frankly I don't care.

This ruling is terrible. Its not a democracy so we don't get a vote, but people surely should be allowed to voice their opinion on it. If I draw shared slaughter in a tournament with neverborn there is no reason not to take three stitched together where I get a 15 soulstone handicap. I can play lilith, camp soulstones and hide the rest of my models. The stitched will kill at least one model, and then all I need to do is drain souls with lilith and have a gaurunteed 2 vp to 0 victory. Bodyguard makes it 4, and toss in breakthrough for 6. the opponent could do NOTHING to stop that.

This is probably an issue with slaughter more then anything. but its a ridiculous ruling. It needs to be talked about some more on wyrds end.

[magicpockets]

I am going to make people complain...in tournaments I enter.

And on that note we're off...

this is currently theoryfaux

::long post about how he'd play Lillith::

The opponent should be able to get 4 vp from schemes (assuming he took easy stuff like bodyguard and breakthrough), The neverborn player should have 6.

Killing more then opponent, killing 1.5 times opponent. 2 is 1.5 times more then 0.

Prove me wrong, Hell, I would love to prove myself wrong. But im not.

Okay, so you're assuming you'll get to kill something with your stitched together here? If you play that what's to stop me doing Drain Souls on everything (I have two free turns remember - so 12+ models) for the draw? Couple of games like that and you'll think twice in a point scoring tourny.

That said, I could build a list with ANY of my three tournament masters to beat you (they being Zoraida, Pandora and Hamelin). Further, any crew with JackDaw is a problem for you - you can't avoid him (based on pure maths) and with only Lillith you ain't going to kill him...ever.

So what if you can come up with lists for half of the masters in the game that can beat this strategy....why should the other half have to deal with it? Why should even one? Why should you ever have to build a list on the offchance that you come across some stupid tactic that shouldnt exist? It isn't playing the game. It isn't big and it isnt clever. But it's legal, and as such, people will do it. Maybe not in friendlies, but not every game is friendly.

Why games companies refuse to make simple changes to fix major issues, is beyond me. We constantly clarify and errata, we change stats between books and card releases, but we can't change a few specific scenarios that ruin *the entirety of certain games*? It's frankly ludicrous.

Malifaux is full of "hard combos" and unbalances between certain crews in certain circumstances, and this isn't even a good example of one.

Do you think Playing Stitched together in Slaughter causes an unfair imbalance?

In a vacuum, maybe. In reality it has never bothered me.

Even if they do, you're left with Lilith all on her own against an entire crew - and even with loads of SS she'll run out of control cards and get mobbed. Shooty crews don't need to chase her, fast crews like Colette will corner her, tough crew like Seamus will drag her ass towards them and greet her with a nice focused Flintlock into the face.

This is not fanboyism. I do know what I'm talking about.

I know it's new and scary, but like everything else (Alp bomb anyone?) people just learn how to deal with it.

:amen:

@Q

I appreciate your opinion, but its wrong. I don't even hate to say that. If you think its balanced and not an issue, you obviously have no idea what your talking about.

All hail Dolomyte

Self sacrifice has no balancing factor in slaughter

Erm...except that any crew can do it via Drain Souls. Seems pretty balanced to me

You're willfully ignoring my point. I don't need to kill your entire crew. I need to catch one or two alps or stitched before you manage to sacrifice them (after all we go alternate activations, so I'm pretty sure I can catch something) and finish off Lilith after that. That's 12~15 points for me. I'm getting points of every model I catch before you sacrifice it, but you don't get any points for the actions you spent on these sacrifices (see what I did here?) and you end up with smaller and weaker crew on the top of that.

The essence of what you're saying is very true, and your long post on this was also on the money. The problem is, you made a mistake in how scoring for stitched togethers work as even though it doesn't actually invalidate any of the points you're making - people will just attack that small error and ignore the bigger answer you put forward. Watch...

===

In closing, my own view on this is that it's not an issue. Sure, it's a mechanic to be aware of when you draw slaughter against a Neverborn player, but first no-one is going to play like is being put forward here and, if they do, in reality it's a guaranteed draw or loss for the NB player.

Does Not Die is no more unbalanced than any other ability which lets players sacrifice their own models. Hell, in my Hamelin crew I can beat you to death with Hamelin and if you get him down from his 12 wounds I can just sacrifice him with Nix (or even himself) and get him back at the end of the turn on full wounds again.

The problem is, the choir on this one won't consider my reasoning, the reply will be about how unbalanced and unfair Hamelin is too...

For the record, I believe Stitched are too cheap at 5ss, but that's the only issue I have. This will never happen and will never be a problem if it does.

Edited July 27, 2011 by magicpockets

[magicpockets]

And to add to Q's post above^^^ -

Dolomyte, you seem to be forgetting something called activation control. You have one model left called Lillith, she goes first or second in the turn depending on initiative. Your opponents ENTIRE crew then gets to activate without her being able to hit back - that's a lot of incoming attacks...

[ProdigalPunk]

The problem is, the choir on this one won't consider my reasoning, the reply will be about how unbalanced and unfair Hamelin is too...

Right, I think most people on the opposition thing the problem is Slaughter more so then the Stitched. I hate the stitched more then any other model in the game, but they do not make up the core of the issue, which is Slaughter is the worse designed Strategy. On top of that there is a replacement right on the previous page that is ten times better (Escape and Survive).

On a sort of related note to the main problem, how does Killjoys Blood Sacrifice and Bete's Drawn to Death work with Slaughter?

[Dolomyte]

Edit- @Q, Possibly at Magic, but I think he just saw the most recent pages.

your focusing on lilith, your saying that the extreme example I pointed out *which I determined will most likely not work, due to reasons non of us discussed* has a counter and therefor everything is fair and balanced with the stitched together.

What I'm saying is that the problem is more then one dumb list, and for that matter It's more then the stitched together. I believe that slaughter *and to a degree deliver the message* are the problem. And they effect the tournament scene for all of our players.

In deliver the message with colette I can have 8 points in the first turn without you ever having the potential to complete the objective.

In slaughter with neverborn I can bring three really good models, the stitched, fight to their fullest, and you will never get points for them.

Stop focusing on semantics and focus on the big picture, your trying to nitpick things that dont at all effect the overall problem.

(My earlier lilith list is flawed because in shared slaughter the opponent will get a point when less then half my force is on the table at the end of the game, they will also get a point if lilith is dead, meaning at best I could get a 6/6 tie)

your de-railing this thread focusing on one single list.

[Q'iq'el]

On a sort of related note to the main problem, how does Killjoys Blood Sacrifice and Bete's Drawn to Death work with Slaughter?

I'm writing from memory now, so I may be off here, but Killjoy has normal SS cost. The model sacrificed to bring him in won't give its SS to the opponent, but the Killjoy himself will, if killed.

As for Bête Noire, it is a bit more complex. She can come to any kill/sacrifice (even when Nicodem sacrifices a Mindless Zombie to Reanimate another model or avoid damage), so the points for that model depend on situation. She herself can avoid getting killed pretty easily, with one caveat - if she is out of play when the game ends, she counts as killed by the opponent, which means he'll get her SS worth in points. Obviously she can try to re-deploy before that (even using Drain Soul), so it isn't horribly hard to avoid, but it can happen.

[magicpockets]

Edit- @Q, Possibly at Magic, but I think he just saw the most recent pages.

Nope, I put myself through all six pages of your rantings

your focusing on lilith, your saying that the extreme example I pointed out *which I determined will most likely not work, due to reasons non of us discussed* has a counter and therefor everything is fair and balanced with the stitched together.

Hey, you put that list and strategy forward as a reasoned example of your argument, don't back down now saying you think it won't work just because it's been shown to be majorly flawed. And I'm not saying that my counters show STs are "fair and balanced", I'm saying your arguments certainly don't show that they aren't

What I'm saying is that the problem is more then one dumb list, and for that matter It's more then the stitched together. I believe that slaughter *and to a degree deliver the message* are the problem. And they effect the tournament scene for all of our players.

No, you have not been saying this. You have been ranting about Stitched Togethers and their ability to sac themselves. If you had been discussing the design of Slaughter I would have agreed with you in the main.

In deliver the message with colette I can have 8 points in the first turn without you ever having the potential to complete the objective.

Again, I'm not sure this is always right. Even with throwing a student of conflict in there and companioning everyone I'm struggling to see how this would work against my main masters. Treasure hunt maybe, but not deliver the message.

In slaughter with neverborn I can bring three really good models, the stitched, fight to their fullest, and you will never get points for them.

Ahh, so we're now BACK arguing about the STs and not slaughter? Also, STs are good in synergy with other models, on their own they're a bit lacking.

Stop focusing on semantics and focus on the big picture, your trying to nitpick things that dont at all effect the overall problem.

...

your de-railing this thread focusing on one single list.

Have you decided what the "overall problem" is yet?

Seriously, is the problem that STs are over-powered? That STs are overpowered in the context of the slaughter strategy? That slaughter needs reconsidering by Wyrd? You need to stop jumping your arguments all over the place and decide what your point is mate

You know I think highly of you Dolomyte from other threads we've spkoken on (admittedly I don't think you've done yourself any favours with this thread, but we've all been there when we believe something - especially when it comes to imbalance) but come on mate, decide where you want to take this

[ProdigalPunk]

I'm writing from memory now, so I may be off here, but Killjoy has normal SS cost. The model sacrificed to bring him in won't give its SS to the opponent, but the Killjoy himself will, if killed.

As for Bête Noire, it is a bit more complex. She can come to any kill/sacrifice (even when Nicodem sacrifices a Mindless Zombie to Reanimate another model or avoid damage), so the points for that model depend on situation. She herself can avoid getting killed pretty easily, with one caveat - if she is out of play when the game ends, she counts as killed by the opponent, which means he'll get her SS worth in points. Obviously she can try to re-deploy before that (even using Drain Soul), so it isn't horribly hard to avoid, but it can happen.

Is there a ruling on this somewhere? It just says killed on the card, not specifically by whom, but I have been away from the boards for awhile, so I might have missed if they ruled they count for the opponent. Also if other people want to jump in and give a +1 for Q then I will by that too.

[magicpockets]

Is there a ruling on this somewhere? It just says killed on the card, not specifically by whom, but I have been away from the boards for awhile, so I might have missed if they ruled they count for the opponent. Also if other people want to jump in and give a +1 for Q then I will by that too.

I think this is part of Slaughter (i.e. the "off the board" bit)

[Dolomyte]

Hey, you put that list and strategy forward as a reasoned example of your argument, don't back down now saying you think it won't work just because it's been shown to be majorly flawed. And I'm not saying that my counters show STs are "fair and balanced", I'm saying your arguments certainly don't show that they aren't

No, I will back down from that arguement, because its flawed. Im not an idiot or unreasonable. If I see something that clearly shows a list will not and cannot work, I will not stand up for that arguement. I was wrong about THAT list. I am not wrong or backing down about stitched together, the sacrifice mechanic, which stitched use, make them unbalanced in slaughter *not deliver the message*

No, you have not been saying this. You have been ranting about Stitched Togethers and their ability to sac themselves. If you had been discussing the design of Slaughter I would have agreed with you in the main.

First Post I made, Last sentance. "This is probably an issue with slaughter more then anything. but its a ridiculous ruling. It needs to be talked about some more on wyrds end." Third post I made, Last sentance " it completely invalidates one of the strategies (granted, probably the worst of all the strategies, Drain souls is just as bad)."I can go on, but I think that makes my point.

Again, I'm not sure this is always right. Even with throwing a student of conflict in there and companioning everyone I'm struggling to see how this would work against my main masters. Treasure hunt maybe, but not deliver the message.

Colette, Duet, Cassandra, Showgirl, Manne, 8ss cache. Scheme: Colettes *need more the 7 ss at end of encounter*, and sabotage *a centralised piece of terrain*. Showgirl goes first, attacks colette, I let it hit, poison 2. Mannequin links to coryphee, tries to get off beautiful clothes. Colette goes, kills a showgirl, gives herself reactive with the free SS, showgirl reactivate goes on the coryphee. Colette reactivates, gains a soulstone, attacks and maybe kills the mannequin for another soulstone, Coryphee goes, dances together, use soulstone, sword dance, and the +mask one, start my move, 1/4th of an inch in attack cassandra for a four inch push, move the remaining 17 3/4th inches to the sabotage terrain, sabotage it. Reactivate, deliver the message. Cassandra goes and kills Colette.

Ahh, so we're now BACK arguing about the STs and not slaughter? Also, STs are good in synergy with other models, on their own they're a bit lacking.

The stitched together are a prime example, perhaps the best, of slaughters fail. its 15 soulstones that you can never claim for your own tally, I would probably use them with pandora in a straight up try and kill you list now, since she synergizes well with them.

Have you decided what the "overall problem" is yet?

Seriously, is the problem that STs are over-powered? That STs are overpowered in the context of the slaughter strategy? That slaughter needs reconsidering by Wyrd? You need to stop jumping your arguments all over the place and decide what your point is mate

The problem is the sacrifice mechanics interaction with slaughter, which the stitched together are a glaring example. I don't think the stitched are over-powered or broken, I simply think you should get points if you kill them. My arguement has been the same, but the fluidity of the discussion has caused me to discuss different points at different times. For instance, the Colette thing, doesent even deal with slaughter, just points out deliver the message has a stupid interaction as well. you could accomplish the same with ramos, probably easier. brass arachnid gives the duet reactivate, ramos detonates himself.

You know I think highly of you Dolomyte from other threads we've spkoken on (admittedly I don't think you've done yourself any favours with this thread, but we've all been there when we believe something - especially when it comes to imbalance) but come on mate, decide where you want to take this

[Buhallin]

Somehow, I knew this was going to end up here.

[Dolomyte]

On page 7?

[ProdigalPunk]

Somehow, I knew this was going to end up here.

On the Wyrd Forums? We posted it on the Infinity forums first, but they were not nearly as helpful as you would think they would be. All they said was "You think that is a rules question? This is a rules question..." But I don't play Infinity so I didn't get the joke.

[Mike3838]

Q'iq'el & Magicpockets,

Best if you completely disregard the specific Lilth tactic/plan that has derailed the thread a little and consider this:

25ss game - EITHER SIDE flips Slaughter.

3 Stitched + any Neverborn master + 10ss of anything else.

During the game this list is played completely normally and goes out to kill things, no funny business or messing about in early turns. No "individual models ganged up on by whole crews" or crews fighting at reduced strength. Incidentally, "killing things" is a good way for me to prevent my opponent achieving most other strategies.

That's about the most generic setup possible but sill grossly unfair, and the problem IS the Does Not Die rule.

The most my opponent can ever get towards Slaughter (or towards preventing my Slaughter) is 20 (if they kill my master and the other random minions), while I can rack up 35. Assuming a balanced game in which we kill an equal number of models each I will always be ahead on points, enough to net me 4vps for slaughter.

Counters to this?

1) Focus on your own Strategy? Good luck! I achieved my 4VPs in the crew selection stage and I'm now free to spend 6 turns focusing on denying you yours.

2) Drain Souls on your own crew? Fair enough, we're back to an even playing field, but we've just broken the game. Does Not Die has forced us to a situation which makes no sense whatsoever, into a competition to see who can sacrifice his own crew the quickest. RAI/fluff/fun fail.

3) Ignore the Stitched and focus on killing my master and other stuff? The most valid tactic I guess, but the game is asymmetrical from the start and my opponent is on the back foot throughout. This is near enough the dictionary definition of an unfair game.

Would either of you consider the ability broken if it was reworded to give the player kill credit against Stitched? If so, please explain why, because I can see no compelling reason why it should be as it is (in a state which is open to abuse) other than, of course, "the ruling said so"

Mike

[Q'iq'el]

I think this is part of Slaughter (i.e. the "off the board" bit)

Actually I'm not sure about that. The problem with Bête Noire is that she's one of the models that heals itself as Slow to Die action.

In other words she gets killed.

She uses Slow to Die to do One with the Night.

That buries her, removes her from play, but also heals her, meaning she is no longer killed.

Slaughter says the models returning to play after getting killed give up their points only for the first time they are killed.

Bête, as long as she manages to pull One with the Night, doesn't get killed. Instead, she counts as killed if she's still out of Play at the end of the game. It's in the Drawn to Death rule itself (or One with the Night, not remembering exactly right now).

I assumed she counts as killed by the side which forced her to bury, but I agree it isn't explicit enough. Still it makes all the sense to play her that way - she can't count as killed for the encounter's purpose (which rules require) if she doesn't give points and she can't give points to her own crew, right? In this backward way of reasoning, she can only fulfill the rules' wording if she gives the points to the opponent.

[magicpockets]

Aren't the points on slaughter calculated differently now? I think Dolomyte touched on this, but I remember there being a +1vp for your opponent not having 50% of their force on the board or something?

[ProdigalPunk]

Aren't the points on slaughter calculated differently now? I think Dolomyte touched on this, but I remember there being a +1vp for your opponent not having 50% of their force on the board or something?

There is, and a +1 if they do not have a master on the board as well. But I still think if you leave stuff off the board entirely the points are a wash. (Though you would still get the +1 for less then 50%).

[Q'iq'el]

Aren't the points on slaughter calculated differently now? I think Dolomyte touched on this, but I remember there being a +1vp for your opponent not having 50% of their force on the board or something?

Nah, more complex than that and doesn't change the problem by much.

For one that is only the Gaining Grounds ruleset. Valid for tournaments and everyone who wants to play by tournament rules, but not relevant for players who don't want to implement it.

I don't think it replaces the basic rules in Rules Manual for normal games. (might have missed a ruling here though)

Besides, if you play Gaining Grounds, it goes like this:

Normal Slaughter:

2VP if the total cost of the models you killed or sacrificed is greater than the cost of the models your opponent has killed or sacrificed.

4VP if the total cost of the models you killed or sacrificed is 1.5 times higher...

In both cases it's quite important who gets the points for Bête Noire, obviously.

Shared Slaughter:

1VP if total cost of the models you killed or sacrificed is greater than the total cost opponent killed/sacrificed.

+1VP if 1.5 times the cost...

+1VP if he has no leaders in play.

+1VP if opponent has less than half of his starting crew on the table.

So it still matters for at least 2 out of 4 VP you may get.

[magicpockets]

Would someone mind posting the slaughter scoring system in full? I've not got my book to hand at the minute but would be a good reference for this debate.

Edit : Ninja'd

[Calmdown]

In other words she gets killed.

She uses Slow to Die to do One with the Night.

That buries her, removes her from play, but also heals her, meaning she is no longer killed.

Slaughter says the models returning to play after getting killed give up their points only for the first time they are killed.

Bête, as long as she manages to pull One with the Night, doesn't get killed. Instead, she counts as killed if she's still out of Play at the end of the game. It's in the Drawn to Death rule itself (or One with the Night, not remembering exactly right now).

Specifically fixed by Bete's card:

"If this model is not in play at the end of the game, it counts as killed for Encounter purposes"

Bad Juju has this too iirc.

That's smart wording. That fixes the sploits.

Stitched has no such rule, which just seems like a huge oversight. All it needs is:

"If this ability is triggered at least once during the game, this model counts as killed for encounter purposes" (may need to be worded differently since I cant remember if Does not Die is technically 'triggered', but you get the idea).

Overall though, with the number of sacrifice options in the game (Drain Souls being the most common of course), Slaughter is generally pretty broken anyway without a major reword.

[Q'iq'el]

Specifically fixed by Bete's card:

"If this model is not in play at the end of the game, it counts as killed for Encounter purposes"

That's what I said in my first post on this subject. But ProdigalPunk's doubt comes from the fact this "fix" doesn't mention WHO gets the credit for the kill.

As I said, it is logical to assume it is the opponent, but that requires further deductions (in my previous post) and may not convince all the players..

[CannonFodder]

Would someone mind posting the slaughter scoring system in full? I've not got my book to hand at the minute but would be a good reference for this debate.

Edit : Ninja'd

I don't have the book in front of me, but I think its

2 VP if you kill or sacrifice 1 x the number of SS your opponent Killed or sacrificed of yours.

4 VP if you kill or sacrifice 1.5 x the number of SS your opponent Killed or sacrificed of yours.

The inherent issues is the Does Not Die is a self sacrifice ability, so if you kill it via damage, you do not get the points for killing it. ITs automatically stays around and gets an activation, then self sacrifices. The only way to get points is to use a spell or ability to sacrifice it on one shot.. ei Disappearing act, devour(Hoarcat pride), Headshot. etc.

There might be 12 models in the game that can do this. and most can be negated by discarding soulstones or cards.

Original ruling here.

Edited July 27, 2011 by CannonFodder

[Mergoth]

If a model heals via Slow to Die (ie Bette) they don't count as killed.

I regularly play an opponent who routinely runs 3 Stitched (they're his favourite model, and frankly I've never had a problem with them. Granted, they're a solid 5SS model, but they do go down pretty easily for their cost - even with Does Not Die. Compared to a 4SS Belle they're pretty much made of toilet paper. They do make a good mobile smokescreen but they rarely all last till turn 4 (the trick is to pop them before they activate).

Having said this, I'll be running a tourney next month in the LGS. The last scenario is Shared Slaughter, so I'll watch the scores closely and if I feel they were suddenly unbalanced in favour of the NB players I'll simply add a note in my rulespack before the next event making them rare 1 for that scenario, or something like that. A lot of crews have throw away models that will be sacced by their owners thus denying VP though, so I doubt it'll be a problem.

[Ratty]

I think the problem is that on the face of it having models that don't give SS for killing seems really unfair. Which it would be in a vacuum but this game is not played in a vacuum there are lots of things to consider.

Firstly lets consider Slaughter. There are lots of trick and tactics for Slaughter but it generally comes down to 2 overall strategies.

1. Blitzkrieg . IE you hit the enemy really hard at one point of their crew, destroy it through weight of numbers and then roll down their crew using your numeric advantage. The one issue with this plan is if you hit and fail to kill your initial target, the enemy gets time to bring the rest of his crew into the fight and you generally lose.

2. Denial. You make sure that for every ss the enemy kills you kill more in return. This plan falls down when you have a weak link in the chain which the enemy can kill to wrack up the points.

Neverborn are probably one of the best faction at running a Blitzkrieg style. They have lots of movement tricks to guarantee their models can isolate part of the enemy crew. Lots of high damage or de-buffs to make sure you kill your target. What they are not good at is denial. There are hardly any models that the Neverborn have that can really take damage and deny the enemy SS.

The one exception to this are Stitched, and even then they don't do it that well, they are fairly easy to kill, but don't give SS when you do kill them.

So why not take lots of Stitched to guarantee a win. Because, well it doesn't guarantee a win.

It dilutes your crew to the extent you can't win through Blitzkrieg, you don't have the force or support to guarantee the strike, Stitched being fairly slow with no movement tricks and moderate to weak damage. So you have to go for Denial. The rest of your crew is still Neverborn so can be picked off quite easily to get points.

Any faction can probably make a better Denial crew.

For example

• Guild can run Hoffman with huge amounts of armour, yes you can get SS from killing his constructs, but the amount of effort per SS is much higher than your non-Stitched models.
  
• Kirai can run a list with Jack Daw (which against most crews is 9ss the opponent can't kill), larger spirits like Onryo that she can swirl back and eat to make new spirits and Ikiryo which she can continuously summon and gives 0ss. I've had multiple Slaughter games with Kirai where the opponent has only managed to kill 2ss of models.
  
• Leveticus can run a fairly solid big Construct list that is going to be a pain to get SS from.
  

So is taking 3 Stitched in a Slaughter nasty/overpowered, possibly but there are better Denial crews in other factions. Is it game breaking, hell no.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Ratty

[CannonFodder]

No one is complaining that stitched are too tough to take down. Your argument for Blitzkrieg vs Denial is fair for other strategies. The issue is that its virtually impossible to get the points for killing them in SLAUGHTER.

They are strong enough that they cannot be ignored. Anything that has the potential to do 7 dmg / AP cannot be ignored, and you need to focus some effort in killing them just to clear them from the board. In a normal slaughter ignoring this discussion, the stitched together have a solid potential to kill 1.5 times their point value. Taking in this discussion they have 99.5% chance of getting 1.5 time their point value for no effort. The last .5% is the chance of getting sacrificed, which you opponent needs to work for assuming he brought some of the few models that have the potential. Most of the abilities have an auto-out for the stitched together (Headshot - discard 2 ss or cards). While the ones that don't have an auto-out are hard to get to work (Colette - needs to cheat & spend a SS for a chance of :tomes:tomes:tomes).

As for the counter argument about fairness of Levictus & big heavies in slaughter... I love facing them, my convicted gunslinger loves taking down a fresh a desolation engine in one activation. But this is theory craft that can go in circles, which is a useless argument because it distracts from the specific issue, and never ends.

[Dolomyte]

@ Ratty

The stitched are nightmares, so in theory could be delivered by the dreamer into the opponent on the very first turn of the game, making them amazing for Blitzkrieg.

Your kidding yourself if you think they are balanced, they dont even need to be that effective to make up their points, they need to be marginally effective in the army, because no matter what they do, they are at least denying your opponent 15 vps. they will make it near impossible to get the kill 1.5 more times the models then your opponents condition.

It is gamebreaking because no one else has access to a model that you can use completely (not sacrificing via drain souls, costing your master an AP, not worrying about killing the model yourself before your opponent gets a chance to, etc) You can just field these guys as normal and know for a fact your opponent won't get the VPs.

Even if you are admitting that its slightly unbalanced, and even if I were to agree its counterable, why should people need to hope they have a counter for it in their crew (assuming people are playing by the rules and dont know what crew they are facing). Slaughter itself is a bad strategy, but the rules marshalls could fix this part of it by just reversing a ruling that effects nothing else. I don't understand why there would be any hesitation in ruling the opposing player gets credit for killing stitched together when does not die triggers, if I'm missing how that breaks something, anything else in the game, please let me know.