Team Marcus

[Nephalumps]

Hiya!

There's no issue really here as Instinctual Behaviour stipulates a "non-master model" as well as the (1) action cannot cause the model to directly sacrifice/kill itself.

When under control by aMarcus the ennemy beast becomes friendly, therefore while under the Instinctive Behavior effect, Dominance would not apply to the model but as soon as IB ends the model resumes being an ennemy beast and receives the (-) flip; it's a great combo!

Thanks for the reassurance! I'll be keeping an eye out for situations where I can use this.

Since Dominance doesn't "help" with tagging the enemy with Instinctive Behavior, its probably easier in a lot of cases to just cast that on a friendly beast, and lean on those buffs coupled with Dominance's penalty to take the target out.

However, there are definitely times where remembering this trick will let you pull off some neat moves. Its definitely a "less powerful, but more accessible" Alpha. Fun times.

Give in to it also allows you to use instinctive behavior and healing spells on non beasts. So any mercs or non beasties near marcus (gunsmith, kaeris,mctavish, etc) get the obey benefits, sadly not many need or want the charge or melee buffs.

I keep forgetting that Give Into It doesn't specify "enemy"!

Its actually another great use of low cards if you want a model to be a Beast, but couldn't get the Raptor shenanigans to work.

Although a lot of models don't benefit much from the melee buff (or possible Instinctive Behavior casts,) it does open up the possibility of Myranda shenanigans, and it also allows them to immediately activate after aMarcus thanks to Rise of the Beasts.

Definitely worth keeping in mind, as even though its more of a mid-late game maneuver, its also pretty easy to set up.

I need more games!

[Fading Memory]

I, Fading Memory, want to be a part of Team Marcus, and can I be member number 63 ?

6, 3 offsuit in honor of my favorite poker hand.

Also I was wondering if shirts can be shipped to the United States.

[Fulgrima]

I, Fading Memory, want to be a part of Team Marcus, and can I be member number 63 ?

6, 3 offsuit in honor of my favorite poker hand.

Also I was wondering if shirts can be shipped to the United States.

Glad to have you with us and yes I believe they can I did check if that was the case when I set it up however I don't know how screwed you guys will be with the postage etc.

[ukrocky]

Played vs James Doxey/Mythic fox tonite. - 45ss, Shared destroy the evidence

I had; Stake a Claim, Marcus' one

He had; Bodyguard and Breakthrough

I used; Student of Conflict, Kaeris, Gunsmith, 3 x Night terror, 3 x Slurrid

He used; Collodi, 4 x Marionette, Wicked Doll, Stitched, Primordal Magic, Big Neph, Insidious Madness, Desperate Merc

Kaeris was a star. Her with a student is still my favourite damage dealing output. Marcus was poop for once. He killed quite alot of Marionettes but could not kill Collodi for poo.

James won turn 1 initivative and got the Vp for the one in the middle. James then got early turn steals on the two outside of my deployment.

I started quite late, but managed to eventually kill Collodi off using a red joker (poor decision), and get the evidence she was protecting, as well as a slurrid getting the one in his deployment zone just as Zoraida repulsive'd to get the one in mine.

At this point I was staring at an 8-3 loss, with my stake a claim sorted, but marcus rapidly running out of targets.

Kaeris and the gunsmith then went mad on Zoraida and over the course of one activation with a wounded gunsmith, and 2 focused shots from Kaeris' gun, managed to kill off Zoraida in my deployment zone first thing on turn 5 and at this point with James only having an Insidious madness and a wicked doll left, we shook hands for a;

5-4 victory to Marcus. (No Marcus scheme, could have got it vs wicked doll and madness, but meh)

It's now 24 game unbeaten streak with Marcus, of which 3 were draws. Mental.

[Nephalumps]

Congrats on the win streak!

That last game sounded exceptionally close. Must have been fun.

---

After not playing for many, many months, and having a few rough starts, I'm finally getting my Marcus mojo back. Managed a 4-1 win over Lady Justice yesterday, with Marcus being the star of the show (and the Waldgeist a close second.)

I had forgotten one of the axioms of Marcus: when in doubt, 'roid out and club things to death.

I also proxied in the Malifaux Raptors for the first time in my game yesterday. They did well enough - destroyed one of the evidence markers, and kept part of Justice's crew hanging back to prevent them from snaking the one in her deployment zone.

Now that I've actually tried the models out, I'm wondering what everyone has used them for in their games. They're very fast, cheap objective interceptors, and that's pretty great, but has anyone used them as cheap fodder? Card drain for the opponent? Or is the main reason everyone takes them to "beast out" a friendly model?

[ukrocky]

I'm struggling to find them a place in my list when compared to night terrors, aside from turning stuff into beasts!

[Nephalumps]

Good, its not just me.

I've been looking at the different options, and Night Terrors look like a fantastic combination of speed, durability, and shenanigans for that role.

Raptors are "independently faster", in that they don't depend on another model to give them a speed boost (whereas the Night Terrors lean on Flock Together to be really quick,) and with their low cost the Raptors are good models to space out opponent activations.

However, the biggest issue with Raptors is that you need to take more than 1 for them to be able to help with Strats/Schemes, and they're not too hard for your opponent to pick off. It makes them more vulnerable to being rendered useless, which is kind of rough, though at least they have a good Df and a low Ht, so if you can hug terrain they'll probably do alright versus shooting.

I kind of like a pair of Raptors, at least for how much they cost, but I'm secretly hoping for a minor buff on the cards to make them more compelling as a choice.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Nephalumps

[brdparker]

Good, its not just me.

I've been looking at the different options, and Night Terrors look like a fantastic combination of speed, durability, and shenanigans for that role.

Raptors are "independently faster", in that they don't depend on another model to give them a speed boost (whereas the Night Terrors lean on Flock Together to be really quick,) and with their low cost the Raptors are good models to space out opponent activations.

However, the biggest issue with Raptors is that you need to take more than 1 for them to be able to help with Strats/Schemes, and they're not too hard for your opponent to pick off. It makes them more vulnerable to being rendered useless, which is kind of rough, though at least they have a good Df and a low Ht, so if you can hug terrain they'll probably do alright versus shooting.

I kind of like a pair of Raptors, at least for how much they cost, but I'm secretly hoping for a minor buff on the cards to make them more compelling as a choice.

IDK, simultaneous activation's pretty nice. It's good with the silurids, but these things cost 60% less. Imagine staring down with Marcus after initiative, whacking a couple of bad guys with your stick and then activating all (say... 8) of your raptors and charging with them (even better in avatar form, with the Wp 12 duel to make mass beasts!). They only do 1/2/3 damage each, but once the target(s) become beasts, the remaining defense flips are at a -1, so you can rack up the hits and by extension, the damage. Any model you don't kill will likely be beastized, which will make their turn significantly less effective (giving the raptors a better chance to be alive during next turn). It'd be THE crew build, plus some other minor models, but I can imagine that being all sorts of fun to play.

Edited September 16, 2011 by brdparker

[Fulgrima]

Biggest problem I had with the birds were that they were just a little too squishy however they can easily allow you to out activate someone.

[Adran]

A pair of Raptors isn't enough for them to get signifigant, you need 3 (unless it counts itself as a friendly raptor, which I guess it might, it doesn't say other).

Fast, cheap and reasonably hard to hit, but if I have to spend 6 points on a group of fast moving models for objective grabbing, the increased survivability of the nigth terrors gives it to me, especially as they are still signifigant after one dies.

Have yet to try them, but beasting out is still looking like their main use.

Will field some next time I put Marcus on the table.

[Nephalumps]

IDK, simultaneous activation's pretty nice. It's good with the silurids, but these things cost 60% less. Imagine staring down with Marcus after initiative, whacking a couple of bad guys with your stick and then activating all (say... 8) of your raptors and charging with them (even better in avatar form, with the Wp 12 duel to make mass beasts!). They only do 1/2/3 damage each, but once the target(s) become beasts, the remaining defense flips are at a -1, so you can rack up the hits and by extension, the damage. Any model you don't kill will likely be beastized, which will make their turn significantly less effective (giving the raptors a better chance to be alive during next turn). It'd be THE crew build, plus some other minor models, but I can imagine that being all sorts of fun to play.

I've definitely considered a "THE BIRDS!!!!" build.

I think it definitely has some merit as a shenanigan, especially if you're really comfortable using Marcus and the other models you manage to cram in there. If nothing else, some crews would end up buried under that many bodies/activations, which would give you relatively free reign with your beefier models.

Biggest problem I had with the birds were that they were just a little too squishy however they can easily allow you to out activate someone.

I kept thinking "Well, the Raptors have Df equal to my Terror Tots, and those little goobers survive well enough."

And then I remembered Easy to Wound 1. Definitely hurts their survivability, as it makes it that much more likely for your opponent to get that good flip/cheat in to pop one of them.

Even though they don't have a lot of Wds, they're just durable enough to maybe not get popped by throwaway attacks. Any concentrated effort from your opponent will end badly, though at least they're a cheap distraction in that case.

A pair of Raptors isn't enough for them to get signifigant, you need 3 (unless it counts itself as a friendly raptor, which I guess it might, it doesn't say other).

Damn good point! I completely brain farted on "Pack Mentality 2". I believe you're totally right - the way its written, it really sounds like you need a pack of at least 3 for it to kick in (i.e. I can't see why each Raptor would count himself for it.)

Fast, cheap and reasonably hard to hit, but if I have to spend 6 points on a group of fast moving models for objective grabbing, the increased survivability of the nigth terrors gives it to me, especially as they are still signifigant after one dies.

Have yet to try them, but beasting out is still looking like their main use.

Will field some next time I put Marcus on the table.

Yeah, at 6 SS, its a harder sell. I was thinking 4 SS wasn't too bad, and it isn't for some cheap fodder/activations, but you're right in that Night Terrors seem like stronger objective grabbers for that "6 SS bracket."

Still, I have some Raptors coming to me, so I'll give them another few games and see what comes out. A pack of 4 would be a nice roving objective grabber, but that's a big footprint and 8 SS. Hrm. Requires more testing.

[Only Perfect]

I grabbed some raptors last night myself and looking maybe to get a game in tonight (other than the little trial game I did last night). Last night I poked around with fielding 2 out of the box and found myself a little tome starved half because of bad luck half because of Marcus. Hopefully I'll get a better feel for it tonight with maybe just one to try to hit a key model with beast.

[Nephalumps]

I grabbed some raptors last night myself and looking maybe to get a game in tonight (other than the little trial game I did last night). Last night I poked around with fielding 2 out of the box and found myself a little tome starved half because of bad luck half because of Marcus. Hopefully I'll get a better feel for it tonight with maybe just one to try to hit a key model with beast.

Great feedback! That's one of my bigger concerns as well - I know 2 SS models aren't supposed to set the world on fire, but the only way I can see Raptors doing much of anything is if you end up being able to feed them a high (or :masks, but those are usually already at a premium in Marcus crews,) to get the Beast trigger.

However, I'm also interested in using them as cheap filler, and roving PITA models. Should have them today (along with all kinds of Book 2 beasts) so I can give them a legit few games over the next few weeks.

[Only Perfect]

Got my game in and again failed to really use the beast trigger on the plus side I felt a lot better about only using one at 2 ss. It didn't do much but I think one raptor is my "go to" if i have the extra space, just for the off chance I do beast a key model. It's hit or miss but for 2ss it's allowed to be.

A big thing that came up in my game tonight was the stupid primal reaction trigger. Has there been an official ruling on the timing? b/c granted it seems like after damage, but that could still put it before the model is killed (which is also a reaction to damage the way i see it). I know it is wishful thinking but without an official ruling to look at it seems like it makes Marcus' avatar manifest kinda to hard for what the avatar is actually capable of bringing to the table. (not that it's all that hard. It's just kinda more outta the way to the point of why bother.)

[Rathnard]

Hmm, 34 pages and some actually useful content. I may need to catch up on this thread.

The Raptor's best use in a Marcus crew seems to be in Beasting out friendly models. He's otherwise pretty lame in combat and almost useless in claiming objectives. But other than that I think it's very interesting that the Raptor is on a 40mm base. That's a larger footprint to help block charges, which may be especially useful in combination with diving charge, since it can stay safely out of LoS until you need to tie up a model for a turn. Actually, The Raptor is potentially fast enough to use Defensive Stance before getting in the way, so it may actually survive it's turn as a living roadblock.

But perhaps more importantly, the 40mm base means two corpse counters when a single, 2SS raptor dies. :smugpuppet1

So gentlemen - how can we abuse these corpse counters (possibly in combination with the eternally dieing jackalope)?

Obviously it'll come down to utilising models with Grave Robber, so for Marcus that'd be the Freikorps Trapper, Blessed of December and Silurid w. a Spawn mother? That's off the top of my head so I've probably missed some others too.

The Trapper's benefit from corpses (healing flip) is nice, but nothing to write home about. The Blessed would find the healing from corpses more useful though, given it's more melee centric role.

But perhaps the cheaper Gupps from dead raptors might be most useful? Once that Raptor's done it's job by beasting out one of your key minions, you can then kill off the raptor and effectively recycle it into a Gupp.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Regarding primal reaction on a model taking lethal damage, I believe that when two effects occur at the same time, you can choose which happens first. It's somewhat more complex than that but it should be outlined under 'timing' in the rules manual.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Rathnard

[ukrocky]

Nice thought on the corpse counters Rathnard. Re: Primal trigger vs death - Whenever I've used Marcus' scheme, I've played it that he has to hit it, then kill it (So 2 hits minimum), else it's just him killing 2 models in melee.

[Nephalumps]

Regarding the timing of the Primal Reaction trigger (and all other triggers that go of "after damaging defender",):

I was actually curious about this myself, so I did some research, and posted a question about it on the rules forum.

I didn't get Marshall feedback, but the answer seems pretty straightforward, and Buhallin was kind enough to confirm my suspicions, so I'm pretty sure this is the way it works:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24889

tl;dr - Killing the defender is part of the "damaging" process (they really need to make that list of steps more readily available,) so the trigger doesn't kick in before the model dies.

It definitely makes Marcus' manifest requirement and his scheme harder to achieve, but not at all prohibitively so. His manifest requirements are, overall, still really easy (especially since they play so strongly into his overall "kill" plan,) and you can even arrange for him to Primal Reaction and then beat it to death, if you're careful in your order of actions (and if circumstances comply, of course.)

Re: Raptors - After trying out Night Terrors last game, I'm firmly sold on the comments others have made about the Raptors. They're good point filler, and they're probably good harassment models for their cost, which is cool.

@Rathnard - The Defensive Stance idea with Raptors seems like a really good one! Their Df is high enough that the bonus flips are likely to make them a menace to hit, and its not like you were relying on the Raptors to charge in and do damage anyways. Anything that can make the Raptors more of a pest is a good thing, I think.

Actually, depending on the order of things, you could really harass a model with some Raptors. If you were in combat with Raptors, and you get to activate them first, they'll simo activate, you can pop Defensive Stance with both of them, and then still peck at the enemy. If you get either of the triggers, all the better!

I also really like the idea of using their "high" corpse counter output. It actually turns out to be a 1:1 ratio in SS:Corpse Counters with Raptors, which may be the best ratio in the game!

Moreover, if you can use the Raptor corpses to get Gupps, you actually end up with a net SS cost-per-model gain.

Plus, there's the amusing irony of Malifaux Raptors being transformed in to Silurids.

[swingjunkie]

First Marcus game last night! 4-4 tie vs. Ramos.

Me: Supply Wagon (0), Kill Protege (2), Marcus scheme (2)

Jackalope, Raptor, Cerberus, Shikome, Moleman, Joss

Him: Supply Wagon (2), Sabatoge (0), Ramos scheme (2)

Mobile Toolkit, SS Miner, Soulborg Executioner (Protege), Rusty Alyce, Large Arachnid, maybe a small archnid too?

Favorite moment: Opponent used Overheat(?) on the Executioner to get him to my unprotected supply wagon trying to destory it. Unfortunately, he forgot about aMarcus waiting in the wings. Marcus manifests, flies in, and beats face.

Also, Moleman= Best Speedbump EVER.

Edited September 23, 2011 by swingjunkie

[Nephalumps]

First Marcus game last night! 4-4 tie vs. Ramos.

Me: Supply Wagon (0), Kill Protege (2), Marcus scheme (2)

Jackalope, Raptor, Cerberus, Shikome, Moleman, Joss

Him: Supply Wagon (2), Sabatoge (0), Ramos scheme (2)

Mobile Toolkit, SS Miner, Soulborg Executioner (Protege), Rusty Alyce, Large Arachnid, maybe a small archnid too?

Favorite moment: Opponent used Overheat(?) on the Executioner to get him to my unprotected supply wagon trying to destory it. Unfortunately, he forgot about aMarcus waiting in the wings. Marcus manifests, flies in, and beats face.

Also, Moleman= Best Speedbump EVER.

Congrats on the solid first out outing!

I find that "durable" crews (Hard to Wound, Armor, Spirits, etc,) give Marcus some grief, because its harder for him to blitz models down before he ends up on the bad end of the attrition battle. Ramos is definitely one of the stronger attrition Masters, so good on you for giving him a hell of a fight your first time with Marcus.

I also fully agree about the Moleman; I've actually come to like the little guy a lot. Though he's slow, he's really durable, so he's a great Defend Me target for Marcus to fall back to if necessary. Plus, the Moleman isn't too bad on offense (assuming he ever gets to punch anything,) and you can always put scenario pressure on your opponent by having him slowly but surely dig his way to objectives.

Even though he keeps getting blown up by "ignore Armor" abilities I neglect to research beforehand, I still really like taking the little guy.

[Only Perfect]

Thanks for the replies guys. I still have to say without a marshal on the primal reaction subject I hope it's ruled as one hit but i can defiantly see it both ways. With the current sentiments I'll keep playing it by the 2 hit rule. I have to say I'll use the avatar a lot less that way though.

[Nephalumps]

Yeah, I'm hoping for "official" word as well, but since its been floating around for awhile and it does not seem to be that contentious of a question, I'm thinking that might be as clear as the issue gets. Still, its good to have something to work off of, and if it ever gets ruled to go the other way, it'll make it even easier!

One question: why do you say that this timing of the trigger would make you "use the avatar a lot less"? In my experience, even with killed models not getting the trigger, its not too hard to get aMarcus out by turn 3 in most games, if you're really gunning for it.

Not judging or anything, I'm just curious.

Back on aMarcus for a bit more: my biggest issue with him is that I'm not sure when exactly it would be beneficial to take the Avatar.

Normal Marcus combines good mobility, defensive capabilities, damage output, and debuffs (thanks to his 'stank eye setups.) However, the biggest thing for me is how durable he can be with Wild Heart and Defend Me.

Most of the time, my games end with Marcus and maybe one other beast still standing. aMarcus ramps up the debuffing potential and his Crew's potential damage output, but he loses out on those defensive tricks.

Now, that normally wouldn't be an issue, as you could switch him to more of a buffer/debuffer model that chips in damage where he can. However, I don't ever have enough models that it feels like I can take advantage of aMarcus' abilities. So, my first few experiences with him have been aMarcus being flying mostly solos, with one or two beasts.

In those cases, I feel like it would be a lot better to not have the Avatar form, as if you get either of the Manifest requirements (which is really easy during the course of a game,) you're going to automatically Manifest at that "endgame" point. You can burn a Soulstone to stave off the manifestation, but thats just another bite into your long term survivability, so I don't see that as a good trade.

I've been debating several different courses of action: 1) I need to build aMarcus crews to have more durable components - Slate Ridge Mauler, Waldgeists, Shikomes - and/or 2) I need to fight a more "guerrilla" style battle before trying to manifest.

Hit and run, and minimize damage while trying to get one or both of aMarcus' manifest requirements by turn 2/3. Then, pop the Avatar and go on the offensive - even if you have to use a (2) action to manifest, you gain Fast so you still have an action available to you, and with Rise of the Beasts you can immediately get your offense started.

Both strategies are tricky, and dependent on scenarios, enemy list comps, etc, but I think they might work. Or at least, be fun.

Are these ideas crazy? Or crazy brilliant?

[brdparker]

Played a game against Raspy today, my second versus her. The first time I played her, I got creamed, because it was box v box, plus each totem (he was a new player... so I didn't want to dominate him). Didn't matter, I wasn't able to touch my objectives without being iced to death... every single model.

This time though, I built the crew, and had 2 shikomes coming right for rapsy off the bat. They were able to hide behind some trees before charging in, which provided a nice cover. She didn't survive long, and I think that's the way to do it against her and other shooty crews, get in melee, and run them down. Didn't really touch the shattering models though, but I didn't need to with the VP setup. I would have swapped out for my own Silent One/Cassandra and Myranda if I needed to.

Good to know for the future...

[Only Perfect]

The aMarcus thing is basically personal preference. aMarcus is so much more support than basic Marcus so I include him in lists that need that support more. If I can't, or have to over extend to get aMarcus out by turn, lets say 3, then I find myself fighting a losing battle that isn't really worth it.

As to the way he works I find I still like to play "guerrilla" style with aMarcus, but with his abilities to cause so much chaos in the enemy lines and still be able to drop 2 different beasts on them the same turn he does a lot less of the attacking himself and depends more on the amount of beasts you have.

In short although he can cause trouble both late and mid game I see him as way more effective mid game. Maybe it's just play style.

@brdparker yeah it is always good to hit raspy fast. With most of your beasts being kinda soft at range put the hurt on her before she can you.

That does bring up a question though. paying for 2 shikomes with Marcus isn't that kinda restrictive, expensive, so on? I generally run one and some times if I'm not sure I need it, I just use Myranda who might waste some turns if I do want her to transform but nets me a ss and is more versatile.

[Fulgrima]

Do most of you guys use the shikome model or an alternative? I must be honest im not a fan of those models.

[Only Perfect]

I use the model I have done a wing swap though. I not a fan of the sculpt myself, another reason you don't see me running 2 of them lol.