Rhaksha Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Now that we have established that North Wind (from the Silent One) does not increase the range of Ice Mirror from 6" to 9" I've been looking again at this nifty trick and I have a few questions. The wording on Ice Mirror is; "When casting a spell, this model may draw LOS and range from a friendly model with Frozen Heart within 6"...." Does this mean I can cast December's Touch on a Freikorps Trapper for example and thus draw LOS through 6" of terrain (still firing only 10" though )? Does this mean also that I can Ice Mirror through Hans and benefit from his Goggles ability to ignore spell effects and potentially fire December's Curse 10" from Hans to strike a Stitched Together who thinks he is safe in his Creepy Fog? Thanks Rhaksha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaksha Posted July 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 This arose in a game I had last week and was hoping for some clarification. Peacekeeper melee strikes a Gamin and gets his Toss trigger. The Gamin defends (unsuccessfully) and gets his Sub Zero trigger and takes enough Dg to kill him. The Gamin('s Corpse) would obviously suffer the toss (unless he was statued which he wasn't) but would the Peacekeeper end his activation? In the end we flipped for it, but input would be appreciated. Thanks Rhaksha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 On the trigger point, the Peacekeeper would end his activation. You apply Sub Zero after the Ice Gamin takes damage, and the Peacekeeper has no way of avoiding that. Killing the Ice Gamin happens after damage is taken, so killing him doesn't help either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Now that we have established that North Wind (from the Silent One) does not increase the range of Ice Mirror from 6" to 9" I've been looking again at this nifty trick and I have a few questions. The wording on Ice Mirror is; "When casting a spell, this model may draw LOS and range from a friendly model with Frozen Heart within 6"...." Does this mean I can cast December's Touch on a Freikorps Trapper for example and thus draw LOS through 6" of terrain (still firing only 10" though )? Does this mean also that I can Ice Mirror through Hans and benefit from his Goggles ability to ignore spell effects and potentially fire December's Curse 10" from Hans to strike a Stitched Together who thinks he is safe in his Creepy Fog? Thanks Rhaksha From what I know of the rules...yeah, actually. Which is hilarious and awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WookieeGunner Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Since there is nothing in Perfect Mirror that says you get to use the other models special abilities, I would say no. The rule says from, which implies location, not by, which implies person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Since there is nothing in Perfect Mirror that says you get to use the other models special abilities, I would say no. The rule says from, which implies location, not by, which implies person. Yes, but you are still drawing LOS from that model...hmm... odds are you're right, but that might be a nice one to get an official response from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Drawing LOS from a different model is not the same thing as that model drawing LOS. It's Rasputina's activation, it's her action, there's no reason why the Trapper's talents would come into play. The Tossed Gamin would still end the Peacekeeper's activation. There's nothing in Sub-Zero that requires him to be in melee range for it to go off, only that he is hit with a melee attack. This would even trigger/work against an extended melee attack such as McMourning's Scalpel Slingin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Drawing LOS from a different model is not the same thing as that model drawing LOS. It's Rasputina's activation, it's her action, there's no reason why the Trapper's talents would come into play. Ah, okay. (shrug) Guess I haven't missed out on any interesting tactics after all then. I'm okay with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 When was it clarified that ice mirror no longers gets the extra 3 inches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 When was it clarified that ice mirror no longers gets the extra 3 inches? some time ago, north wind icreases ablities and spells with the Rg stat, and not the 6" range from ice mirror. this range and Rg are big differences in malifaux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 I'm thinking of switching up my crew to not even use the silent one now :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 ...except that December's Curse still can be slung out to 19" now...they only killed 3" of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 yeah, but that 3 inches on the arc for me makes alot of differences. I'd rather get 3 inches cut off the decembers curse just because it gives you that flexibility when moving your other pieces. I was playing dreamer yesterday and if I couldnt have arc'd from 9 inches out he would have been hidden behind height 1 terrain with no fear of resprisal. Ended up having to do a double move on a gamin and then use a general Ap with rasputina just to barely get him in LOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Your call there, I'm just saying that the maximum range of spells only went down by 3"...but eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreen Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 The 3" does make a difrance, however I know I for one will still be taking a silent one in all if my Raspy lists. She is still a good addition to the army. The perfect mirror and the extra 3" are still vital, and her little nuke isn't that bad ether. Plus having a Silent One is still fluffy and I like lists that are fluffy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Well, yes, I will agree the 3" makes a difference. But for that one thing to take a model from awesome to terrible...? is kinda crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreen Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Well, yes, I will agree the 3" makes a difference. But for that one thing to take a model from awesome to terrible...? is kinda crazy I agree with you. People not taking the silent one now are silly. Only Raspy has to be a little closer to her ice mirrored minion... you Ice Golem or whatever is still the same distance away now, so what does it matter if Raspy is 3" closer? If you do it right you should be getting cover from shots coming at you and out of melee rang of everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 and you know, the 22" is something that is almost impossible to reach, if you can do that, you always have some cover you have to deal with, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaksha Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) As Soundwave said in the 'Ice Mirror, Gamin and Bully' thread: "It's not the gamin targeting Hamelin, it's Rasputina. Under Ice mirror it states: "When casting a spell, this model may draw LoS and range from a friendly model.... So Rasputina targets using the Gamin's LoS and range." So one of two things can happen; either we're assuming Raspy is in the place of the Ice Mirror minion for LOS purposes, which means that we get a situation where Ht1 Gamin can be used to target Ht1 enemy over a Ht1 wall (as Raspy is Ht2) or, we're drawing LOS 'from the eyes' of the Ice Mirror minion with their Ht and abilities intact. So I'm still on the side of Rasputina being able to Ice Mirror through Minions with Hunter to target enemy through 6" of terrain. Hope I'm not overcomplicating things Rhaksha edit: less stealth, more sledgehammer Edited July 14, 2011 by Rhaksha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 ...huh. Nice stealth redirect back on topic Rhaksha. I completely forgot that was the whole point of this thread to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 As Soundwave said in the 'Ice Mirror, Gamin and Bully' thread: "It's not the gamin targeting Hamelin, it's Rasputina. Under Ice mirror it states: "When casting a spell, this model may draw LoS and range from a friendly model.... So Rasputina targets using the Gamin's LoS and range." So one of two things can happen; either we're assuming Raspy is in the place of the Ice Mirror minion for LOS purposes, which means that we get a situation where Ht1 Gamin can be used to target Ht1 enemy over a Ht1 wall (as Raspy is Ht2) or, we're drawing LOS 'from the eyes' of the Ice Mirror minion with their Ht and abilities intact. So I'm still on the side of Rasputina being able to Ice Mirror through Minions with Hunter to target enemy through 6" of terrain. Hope I'm not overcomplicating things Rhaksha edit: less stealth, more sledgehammer You don't get to utilize the abilities of the minion. But you would utilize it's Ht, because that is part of drawing LOS. Don't try to logically think through it. You can draw LOS through the minion, subject to Rasputina's rules for drawing LOS. So that's why Hunter doesn't get involved. The reason why you use the Ht 1 Gamin as opposed to Raspy's Ht 2 is because the core game mechanics for LOS depend on a model's height. So, if you're drawing LOS from a Ht 1 Gamin, it doesn't matter what abilities it has, it won't be able to see past a Ht 1 obstacle. If you need it to make sense as far as Hunter goes, logically, imagine it's more like Rasputina takes over the Trapper for an instant, and sees through his eyes. But it's still her skill for looking at things, not the Trapper's skill for seeing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) or, we're drawing LOS 'from the eyes' of the Ice Mirror minion with their Ht and abilities intact. You kinda conflate these two, but nothing says they're automatically linked. The Line of Sight rules talk about drawing LOS from items, not necessarily just models. Rasputina can use the Gamin as her LOS source without even acknowledging the Gamin as a model with talents, so the mirror's height would apply without the talents coming into play. I can see a possible reading of Hunter that might make it work, but I think it's a stretch. It comes back to the core of whose action it is: Rasputina is the one taking the action, so she's the one drawing LOS, so only her LOS-changing abilities would apply. I could be wrong, but obviously I don't think so Edit (caught this late): So Rasputina targets using the Gamin's LoS and range This is not correct. She draws LOS from the Gamin - that's not the same thing as using the Gamin's LOS. Edited July 14, 2011 by Buhallin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaksha Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Thanks guys. I think I get it now. For the purposes of Ice Mirror the minion is a Ht# blob through which Spells can be cast. I'm sad that I can't nuke Stitched Togethers but at least I know where the limits are. Rhaksha ps. Hans is still awesome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Thanks guys. I think I get it now. For the purposes of Ice Mirror the minion is a Ht# blob through which Spells can be cast. I'm sad that I can't nuke Stitched Togethers but at least I know where the limits are. Rhaksha ps. Hans is still awesome... Ummm...well, if this helps burst your bubble at all, Hunter does squat against the Stitched Together anyways. Hunter only allows up to 6" through Obscuring TERRAIN, not Obscuring EFFECTS, and Creepy Fog is an Effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Believe me, I'd be perfectly happy if it went the other way, I just don't think it does I could always be wrong - like I said, I can see at least SOME possible daylight for the way you want it to work, but it requires a specific reading of Hunter and a few things to fall in very nonintuitive ways. In the end, we're not official - only the rules marshals are. But at the very least I can say that barring specific guidance from them, this is how I would rule it if some asked during one of my tournaments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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