Capitalizing on the GW frustration

[Alphawog]

Quick Recap of GW news for those who have missed it:

GW is raising prices again(somewhere around 17%), preventing ordering from outside of the region and generally ticking people off with lawsuits.

The meat of this post:

The net has been ablaze with people ticked at GW for any or all of a number of reasons. Multiple gaming podcasts have talked about it and honestly I haven't seen much sympathy for GW. Not a supremely uncommon event on the interwebs. However, PP announced today a "10 year anniversary sale" for Warmachine/Hordes that seems to be targeted at new players (Starter pack bundle deals). I don't know if it was planned prior to the GW stuff or not, but the timing probably couldn't be better(within this year) to capitalize on GW fans' peaked frustrations to try and get them to try something new.

Thoughts:

I think a lot of the smaller companies could benefit from starter set bundle sales to cannibalize part of the GW customer base. Anyone else agree/disagree? Anyone else suspect PP is attempting this, or is it coincidence that they have started the sale now?

Edited May 26, 2011 by Alphawog

[Katcher]

Just for your frustration, look at "the best of west" resin models Finecast..

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/05/citadel-finecast.html

So, nothing so bright and shine as the advertisment says.

Here, in Czech republic, this will lead to increase of other games, Malifaux included. It´s pity, that no one plays Warmachine and just a few guys plays Infinity.

[PeteScete]

Okay heres my run down of what you have said in this post.

Quick Recap of GW news for those who have missed it:

GW is raising prices again(somewhere around 17%), preventing ordering from outside of the region and generally ticking people off with lawsuits.

There a company with alot of staff rent bills and many over head cost that most people do not take into account, so a price rise will happon every company dose this at some point or another.

Yes i know GW do it alot as for the region part i think this is a good thing and my point of reason is it will help indi stores in other places that lose there bussness to internet site with in the uk or where ever.

The meat of this post:

The net has been ablaze with people ticked at GW for any or all of a number of reasons. Multiple gaming podcasts have talked about it and honestly I haven't seen much sympathy for GW. Not a supremely uncommon event on the interwebs.

The amount of people that are complaning about it are a small amount of the GW player base as i really dont think that most people in there early teens care when they have mom and dad paying for it.

Also most of these people will bitch and moan about this but still go out and buy all there products.

However, PP announced today a "10 year anniversary sale" for Warmachine/Hordes that seems to be targeted at new players (Starter pack bundle deals). I don't know if it was planned prior to the GW stuff or not, but the timing probably couldn't be better(within this year) to capitalize on GW fans' peaked frustrations and try and get them to try something new.

This would of been sorted befor all this stuff hit.

Thoughts:

I think a lot of the smaller companies could benefit from starter set bundle sales to cannibalize part of the GW customer base. Anyone else agree/disagree? Anyone else suspect PP is attempting this, or is it coincidence that they have started the sale now?

I agree this would be good for smaller companys to do stuff like this making the buy in for there games even better.

I would like too add i stoped playing most GW games as i thought they where boring I'm not sticking up for them but there are alot of things that people do not take into acount.

Pete

[Alphawog]

I actually just read the infinity rulebook(gotta love a company that provides free pdf rules) and it definitely has some cool mechanics. The models are a bit scarce on this side of the ocean though. I'll prolly give the rules a test with some proxies sometime soonish. Maybe some of that 40K/Warzone stuff I never got around to building/painting.

[Alphawog]

@PeteScete

My recap does not reflect my personal opinions. GW only ticks me off when they screw with the fan sites that have been supporting the games they no longer due. And honestly that is a minor annoyance. I like GW minis and some of their games. I very rarely buy miniatures from them because I have enough GW products that aren't even assembled yet. The prices and region thing really don't effect me whatsoever.

I also agree the angry internet ranters make up a very small section of the GW community. However, the angry internet ranters are also some of the most vocal which makes them an influence on others also.

I don't think GW will be hurt much by this because most will complain and pay as usual. GW's prices really aren't that bad if A) You use them for skirmish games or You have an army and only buy a unit now and then. Also, new GW players don't see a huge difference since they haven't been around for the previous price increases or will start after and not think of it as paying more.

However, I think there is an opportunity to strike while the iron and tempers are hot and get people to try something they otherwise might not. While it may not be a large chunk of the GW base it might be a fair amount of new customers to the smaller mini companies.

Also, excellent point about the "street presence" costs.

[AvatarForm]

Okay heres my run down of what you have said in this post.

(1)There a company with alot of staff rent bills and many over head cost that most people do not take into account, so a price rise will happon every company dose this at some point or another.

(2)Yes i know GW do it alot as for the region part i think this is a good thing and my point of reason is it will help indi stores in other places that lose there bussness to internet site with in the uk or where ever.

(3)The amount of people that are complaning about it are a small amount of the GW player base as i really dont think that most people in there early teens care when they have mom and dad paying for it.

Also most of these people will bitch and moan about this but still go out and buy all there products.

This would of been sorted befor all this stuff hit.

I agree this would be good for smaller companys to do stuff like this making the buy in for there games even better.

I would like too add i stoped playing most GW games as i thought they where boring I'm not sticking up for them but there are alot of things that people do not take into acount.

Pete

Pete, stop apologising for GW, it isnt a good look for you.

All the points you have raised are not entirely valid reasons for the embargo to the southern hemisphere and the recent price rise to "support introducing resin". If you go to DakkaDakka this has been going on for weeks and the GW apologists are losing the fight.

To address your points (I have numbered them in your quote):

1. Every company will have overheads, however, everyone knows that the embargo and price rise are not to cover these, they are to drive prices up in order to satisfy the shareholders.

2. How will price RISES help Independents? They will now pay more to buy the products at Wholesale before marking them up to the increased RRP for their region and then they need to cover their ovrheads with increasingly expensive product. I also notice that you are no in the affected region, which is why it is perhaps easier for you to apologise for GW's actions.

3. The people complaining are the veterans of GW game systems, and it doesnt mater if your mother or father pays, do you not think that they will now think twice about paying over $55AUD (Southern Hemisphere price) for 10 plastic men?

Pete, you seem to missing many points of note and arguing from a very limited opinion when you defend GW. I suggest you read the 2 links below and stop believing everything Mark Wells spoon-feeds you, as it is a load of tripe.

For those who are on Pete's side of the fence, please read this link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/368570.page

and this one for the Finecast Resin:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369106.page

On Topic: I had considered posting this very same topic about the WarmaHordes sale here, but then I considered that to be rude as this is a site for Wyrd's own gaming system, Malifaux.

[Alphawog]

I think you may have missed the final remarks from PeteScete's post. He was merely offering the counter-point to what he thought was being stated. In reality I don't think PeteScete or myself really care much either way about GW, to attack or defend them.

On Topic: I had considered posting this very same topic about the WarmaHordes sale here, but then I considered that to be rude as this is a site for Wyrd's own gaming system, Malifaux.

I feel this discussion is within the bounds of general chat about the gaming industry. I also did not intend for this post to be directly about GW's current actions, there are plenty of forums on the internet with these arguments. I found the PP sale to have interesting timing and was curious if anyone else had noticed or thought it was of interest. I did not link to it, give specifics about it, or suggest that the readers should go and buy or play those games. I do not intend for this thread to be a detriment to Malifaux or Wyrd Games.

That being said, you never posted any thoughts on the idea of smaller companies possibly targeting some of the angry and frustrated GW gamers(or newly ex-GW gamers). I would be very interested in hearing them, if you don't consider it to be in poor taste.

[PlasticBoy]

I'm happy to see more and more people realizing that continually rising prices are bleeding the customer base away from GW. Continually larger and larger game sizes (points-wise) mean getting more models, and in general the cost of everything GW has been on the rise for years.

I stopped playing 40k and fantasy for gameplay and balance reasons about 2 years ago. The cost was also an issue with me but the main reasons was that the games weren't very fun anymore. I still have my main two armies and don't think I'll get rid of them. Though I may pick up a game here or there with my friends in the future.

But I have been extremely happy playing Malifaux and other games. They are easier and quicker to get in to. My infrequent painting time fits much better with skirmish games. And the smaller companies put in a noticeable amount more effort in quality of play, story, and character than GW has in the past 10 years.

I think what PP is doing with their starter sets is great marketing. It will definitely scrape some people away from GW. Probably not permanently and who knows how many, but it will have an effect. So good on them and good on Wyrd for their efforts as well. I think fantastic minis coming out on the regular and a very interesting theme have made Wyrd a "new" staple in the tabletop scene.

[Alphawog]

So apparently Mantic Games has a sale going on

First, while some (ahem!) companies are raising their prices – we are selling a few overstock items cheap!

Getting their dig in while trying to drum up a few more sales.

[(TV)]

I am not one to usually complain about GW, but the trade regulation is different. Their utter belligerence to fix the price disparity between countries is unacceptable,m and NOW they've decided that they will FORCE it, not just keep letting it occur.

That is too much. I run a gaming group in an area, like many of us, that has no GW hobby center. For us, we get all the same cost with non of the benefit, and that is only for those who don't hate the hobby centers as well (really depend son who's running it I find).

I tried very hard last year to buildup a minis group at our university with OK results. In contrast, I didn't put any effort at all into Malifaux when I first suggested it, but it the community literally exploded in interest. GW is less and less competitive in our market and they have only themselves to blame.

Regards,

TV

[Huoshini]

GW needs a true competitor in this industry to kick some sense into their heads. They have been sitting at the top for far too long and I hope PP and Wyrd march their way up there to fight the evil sith overlords known as GW

[G. Footman]

@PeteScete

My recap does not reflect my personal opinions. GW only ticks me off when they screw with the fan sites that have been supporting the games they no longer due. And honestly that is a minor annoyance. I like GW minis and some of their games. I very rarely buy miniatures from them because I have enough GW products that aren't even assembled yet. The prices and region thing really don't effect me whatsoever.

I also agree the angry internet ranters make up a very small section of the GW community. However, the angry internet ranters are also some of the most vocal which makes them an influence on others also.

I don't think GW will be hurt much by this because most will complain and pay as usual. GW's prices really aren't that bad if A) You use them for skirmish games or You have an army and only buy a unit now and then. Also, new GW players don't see a huge difference since they haven't been around for the previous price increases or will start after and not think of it as paying more.

However, I think there is an opportunity to strike while the iron and tempers are hot and get people to try something they otherwise might not. While it may not be a large chunk of the GW base it might be a fair amount of new customers to the smaller mini companies.

Also, excellent point about the "street presence" costs.

I agree, I like their games and minis, been playing them for years, I rarely buy through GW though, I've assembled my armies mostly through ebay and trades, my main annoyance with GW stems more how they treat their fans, tossing threats of lawsuits at things they can't even claim copyright on, or even enfoce. (their rule against warhammer themed tattoos makes me laugh, how do they intend to enforce that?).

I've been on threads in Warseer and other communities for the GW games that always bemoan the price hikes, rage about how it'll make them quit the game, all I can ever add to those is you don't HAVE to pay GW's prices, even with their wierd embargo on areas I'll admit I don't understand, there will always be people looking to trade, or sell off bitz at a discount.

Eitherway it is making many long time 'GW hobby" people take a look at other games, wich is a good thing, much as i like warhammer, I do like playing other games that don't involve elves or space marines as well, variety is the spice of life, and there are cheaper games to get into, Malifaux being one of them

[Mentat_Canis]

Well since one of these threads came up I figure I will put my 2 cents into Debate.

Issue 1: The price increase, They happen a public company has shareholders and employees they have to look out for and pay as well as material costs and overhead as well as a myriad of other reasons they needed to raise prices. My take is well that life and happens I have not problem with this I know they have done it every year for the past 3 years but well sales are down 10% for them so one way to make up the cost is cut back and raise prices and they are doing both.

Issue 2/3: New program region locking sales so that if you are in one region you cannot sell to another. At its heart this is not a bad thing and can be argued can be good for the hobby as you keep it close to home. This is only a problem because GW refuses to realizes that many countries have become more stable and there currencies now compete better vs the Euro, Pound and Dollar. In Australia you pay roughly 70% more for GW product then you do in the US. This is the problem that needs to be looked at because it will drive away gamers in those countries. This was mitigated before because they could buy from the US and pay shipping and sill be 30-50% less then buying from local stores.

It will not effect my purchases because I have not played GW in a long time I have been PP and Wyrd for the past year exclusively.

Those in the US who are outraged at the price will keep playing as always those like myself who think that price gouging Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South America is wrong won't go back to them any time soon.

Wyrd I think is taking advantage of the situation by being out there with an inexpensive product with a great rules system and top notch models. If another book comes out at Gen-Con as we all expect they will continue to ride an upswing.

I will be interested to see if this does change the gaming culture and what it does to GW, if it further throws PP into more growing pains as the number 2 in the industry who is having growing pains trying to keep up with demand and expanding there line and game. I will also be interested to see if Wyrd will have to expand and move again as they seem to be the fastest up and comer recently over Infinity and Distopian Wars.

I wish all the companies good luck as I love the hobby and am sure Wyrd will continue to do well with there innovation.

[G. Footman]

think my stance has been, I have my armies, I have ebay, I have people to play against that all have armies, I don't really need GW to play the game, if for some reason they went under, my GW minis and rulebooks would not poof out of existence, neither would the people I generally play against, stop.

but yeah, they do need some competition, Wyrd, PP, whatever company it is that does FoW, seem the best ones for the job so far. the question though is would GW even aknowledge they have competition? most the time their corporate seem to live in their own little world

[ispep]

I don't really need GW to play the game, if for some reason they went under, my GW minis and rulebooks would not poof out of existence, neither would the people I generally play against, stop.

I would count your chickens before they hatch. My local store had a huge following for Confrontation 2.0. When Rackham switched to the PPPs, people stopped playing entirely. They still had their metal models, their 2.0 rulebooks, and everything else, but they just stopped playing. They'd look at other games and bemoan how they missed Confrontation, and when asked why they didn't keep playing, they'd say they didn't like the new plastics, or that nobody wanted to play.

Now, I don't think GW is going anywhere anytime soon, but if they did go under, I think their games would go with them.

[AvatarForm]

I would count your chickens before they hatch. My local store had a huge following for Confrontation 2.0. When Rackham switched to the PPPs, people stopped playing entirely. They still had their metal models, their 2.0 rulebooks, and everything else, but they just stopped playing. They'd look at other games and bemoan how they missed Confrontation, and when asked why they didn't keep playing, they'd say they didn't like the new plastics, or that nobody wanted to play.

Now, I don't think GW is going anywhere anytime soon, but if they did go under, I think their games would go with them.

Why would people stop playing?

We still play the odd game of 2nd or 3rd ed 40k when we miss some of the finer points that 5th misses entirely.

For some (necrons) who havent had a codex update in while, they are just as compatible without requiring multiple Codexes.

IIRC Rackham did not suffer from the coex lag that 40k experiences.

[pixelgeek]

Why would people stop playing?

No idea why but they do. We used to play Epic Armageddon multiple times a week and then GW pulled the plug on the game and suddenly no-one was interested any more.

It is bizarre as heck but it's pretty common

[Rathnard]

Honestly, I think that the problem with the GW hobby at the moment is not the prices per se, but rather the overall cost of buying into the system or even just getting a new army.

GW produced some beautiful minis, and maybe I'm going to annoy some people here in saying it but in terms of quality, their price arguably justified (with exceptions...but that's not what I want to discuss here). The problem is that you need alot of those very nice minatures to get a regular sized army list. Even a 'cheap' 1500pt Space Marine army will probably cost you around AU$500, and that's without going nuts on the transports or taking high $$, low pts units. If you're looking for more of a horde army or want to get into WHFB, you're looking at alot more.

So when you compare these costs to these other games like Malifaux, Infinity and Warmachine, you can start to see why people are beginning to move to other systems. Sure, 40k/WHFB offers you the ability to play large scale battles rather than skirmishes, but even that niche is starting to be replaced in part by the games produced by Spartan Games.

Anyway, I find the recent announcements about pricing and region restricted sales to be disappointing, but it won't affect me. I haven't bought any GW minis for a year and a half now and with my newfound interest in other games, that's unlikely to change.

Do I think smaller companies need to capitalise on the to sentiment and do some sales? Not really. I think GW is doing a fine job of driving disgruntled players to other systems, but I suppose a bit of to publicity couldn't hurt.

Besides, I've found the cheekiness of these sales to be highly amusing.

[CraigH]

I'll be curious to see the reaction over the next few days to this "magic resin" - especially when dropped.

Note to Wyrd - if anyone there is reading the GW-fanboy forums and thinking a switch to plastic is a good idea - feed them to Teddy ! Real Men and Women play with metal !

[Alphawog]

I actually prefer plastic(especially multipart kits) in many ways. It can make more dynamic models feasible. It is easier to convert with. I do like the weight and feel of metal models, but I can achieve the same feel with some base weights. I have alo had some metal models that wouldn't stay up right on an incline due to the top heavy sculpt, after based weights it was all right but a plastic would have been better IMHO. Now if it's a single piece mini that I am only going to have a single copy of metal all the way.

That being said miniatures are never cheap so if the cost is substantially effected keep em metal and I'll deal with converting if needed.

As far as the number of models needed for GW games, Mantic has managed to make models at a much lower price for horde combat type games. I have yet to get my hands on some, but I hear the sculpts are good. They also don't charge more for special units made from the same material. So basically 10 plastic minis is the same price-ish as any other set of 10 plastic mini's in their line. I always wanted to ask someone at GW why one set of 10 plastic soldiers cost more than this set of ten plastic soldiers?

[Alphawog]

I'll be curious to see the reaction over the next few days to this "magic resin" - especially when dropped.

Mantic switched to a resin plastic mix for some of the metals they create. The video I saw showed that the plastic-resin they used was flexible not to break from a small drop and stiff enough to keep firm. Even weirder, the switch meant double the models in the box for the same price as the metals were. Maybe GW should ask them what mix they are using.

[pixelgeek]

I'll be curious to see the reaction over the next few days to this "magic resin" - especially when dropped.

Probably won't be that bad. The resin is supposed to be much softer than the type used by Forge World and not brittle at all. People online who have had the figures in hand have discussed having to be quite careful when cutting or sanding it because the resin isn't as hard or brittle as they thought.

[CraigH]

Thanks for the comments - and I wasn't trying to start a plastic / resin vs metal debate - honest !

[G. Footman]

Why would people stop playing?

We still play the odd game of 2nd or 3rd ed 40k when we miss some of the finer points that 5th misses entirely.

For some (necrons) who havent had a codex update in while, they are just as compatible without requiring multiple Codexes.

IIRC Rackham did not suffer from the coex lag that 40k experiences.

yea, really, I still got in games ofr battlefleet gothic well past when it was supported and only stopped due to moving, and my ships getting broken, but I know of a BFG club on my college, that unfortunatly started after I graduated.

and even played mageknight well past when it was supported as well.

Some people may drop a game as soon as it's parent company stops supporting it, but not everyone does, look at Battletech, the tabletop game was still being played even while it was floating in IP limbo from what I understand.

There's a following for a Dr. Who game where the rules last came out decades ago and are now just available as online scans.

[G. Footman]

and always sort of thought they should of come out with a more squad sized skirmish game, sort of like making Death Squads official.

like they did a few years back with WFB, when they came up with skirmish rules, for small forces to go at each other

kill team was cool, but not quite what it could have been