Cool range of Old West MDF buildings

[Clousseau]

Thanks to BOW have found this site that also makes laser cut buildings. Fantasy buildings of all sorts here, less texture than sarissa and not sure yet how much they are but looking very nice.

http://www.deepcutstudio.com/

These look good, but have to watch the scale as 25mm scale is too small. One advantage of the Sarissa Heroic scale buildings is that they're pretty damn close to the right size.

[rascally]

These look good, but have to watch the scale as 25mm scale is too small. One advantage of the Sarissa Heroic scale buildings is that they're pretty damn close to the right size.

According to their blurb they're, or at least some of them are, suitable for 28 - 32mm figures.. so just about right for Malifaux.

[Heisler]

On my blog I have three posts that compare the various manufacturers currently making Old West style laser cut buildings. The manufacturers are Aetherworks (AU), Battle Flag (UK), Gamecraft Miniatures (US), Knuckleduster/Tri-City (US) and Sarissa Precision (UK). There are a lot of posts in November, December and January that show off my build process for these kits as well.

Here are the comparison posts:

http://wargamesandrailroads.blogspot.com/2013/01/28mm-old-west-laser-cut-buildings.html

http://wargamesandrailroads.blogspot.com/2013/01/paying-price-28mm-laser-cut-old-west.html

http://wargamesandrailroads.blogspot.com/2013/01/28mm-laser-cut-2-story-buildings.html

Gamecraft Miniatures selection of Old West stuff has a lot of accessories, including furniture.

The Knuckleduster/Tri-city kits all say that they come with interior details but you need to read the descriptions closely on their website because a lot of buildings especially the small ones don't actual include any interior detail.

I have a number of buildings primed and ready to paint but there aren't any finished examples yet.

As far as trains I have decided that S Scale Trains (1/64 scale) seem to be the best match for most miniatures. My Black Scorpion Tombstone figures are a good match to the scale and I believe are about the same size as Malifaux minis. Unfortunately this is a pricey way to go. The best steam locomotives to use for anything remotely associated with a Western genre are the 4-4-0 American, 2-6-0 Mogul and the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, you should be looking for something that resembles steam engines made before 1900, 1880 is the best choice. A lot of Christmas windup and battery operated train sets are good candidates for conversions and should be cheap right now as retailers try and clear their shelves. O Scale (1/48) is really to big at least as far as trains and track goes.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Heisler
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[mistercactus]

Thanks for posting those links. Nice blog!

[i_was_like_you]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10640[/ATTACH] As far as trains I have decided that S Scale Trains (1/64 scale) seem to be the best match for most miniatures. My Black Scorpion Tombstone figures are a good match to the scale and I believe are about the same size as Malifaux minis. Unfortunately this is a pricey way to go. The best steam locomotives to use for anything remotely associated with a Western genre are the 4-4-0 American, 2-6-0 Mogul and the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, you should be looking for something that resembles steam engines made before 1900, 1880 is the best choice. A lot of Christmas windup and battery operated train sets are good candidates for conversions and should be cheap right now as retailers try and clear their shelves. O Scale (1/48) is really to big at least as far as trains and track goes.

I'm still torn on train sizes, myself.

The typical O trains look too small to even get a ht 2 Malifaux model through the door, much less be able to have them stand two (or more) across like folks would be able to do on a train. S is even smaller. However, the figures that they sell for O are close to Malifaux's 32mm size.

G, typically referred to as Garden (even though it's from the German word for large, gross), is the typical size in those under the Christmas tree sets. I picked one up at a thrift store (as I missed out on getting a new one on holiday clearance at the grocery store). The boxcar, the gondola, and the caboose (which I'll have to remove the roof for model access) all seemed to be a good size for the figures, but the engine and the coal tender seemed far too large. [Jakob Lynch and Mr. Tannen had a hard time seeing out of the windows. And even Mr. Graves looked too small riding on the tender.]

I may be able to add a platform to the deck of the loco and tender to make them at least a little more friendly to Malifaux models. Unless, of course, I can find a scale that is between O and G that works better.

Then again, with Malifaux, I could just say that the trains used to ship freight through the Breach have to be bigger and stronger to withstand the dimensional forces, or something. As every train in 'Faux would have to be capable of the same, they could all be oversized.

A helpful comparison of model train sizes:

http://miniatures.about.com/od/scaleminiatures/ig/Miniatures-at-Railroad-Shows/Compare-Model-Railroad-Scales.htm

[Having the Dark Debts crew on board a train made me consider a project of an Orient Express style train set with a casino to serve as a mobile version of the Honey Pot. There'd be sleeper cars, and then there'd be sleeper cars. And the Hungering Darkness could reside in a box car or the caboose. "Trust me, you do not want to go in there."]

[Heisler]

I would have to pull out some 1/48 scale miniatures and compare them to my Black Scorpion miniatures and the few Malifaux miniatures I do have to get a better idea of scale. I won't be able to do that until I get home tomorrow. Black Scorpion miniatures are pretty close to Malifaux in size as I recall and they look pretty good with the S Scale equipment.

A standard gauge passenger car from the 1880s or so only measured 8' 6" wide. Two adults could squeeze past each other in the aisle but could not stand shoulder to shoulder in the aisle. The outside wall only measured 7' 5" with the roof and clerestory adding another 2' to the height (so the most headroom is in the aisle). Getting our miniatures to fit within the confines of model railroad scales is difficult at best. In the end you just decide what looks right to you. The Black Scorpion Tombstone series of miniatures is the tallest old west miniatures that I own so I tend to use them to gauge size.

I think one of the problems with the model railroad scales is that, as gamers, we tend to lump everything into one miniature in a one inch square. The reality is far different than that. The size of the passenger cars from the 1880 period (and those dimensions will hold well into the 1900s) means that we are dealing with a space that is not even 2" wide (or 2 25mm stands) wide. You have to remember that in that 8' 6" space four people will be seated (2 on each side) and one in the aisle. So five people in a space that we think only holds 2 miniatures. In a module for Aces and Eights a passenger car is three squares wide or 15' that's not go to be going anywhere it will over hang the wheels so much.

Let's take a look at what the 8' 6" space looks like in the various scales. Let's convert it to pure inches so that's 102". HO Scale is 1/87 so that's about 1 1/8" wide. S Scale is 1/64 so that's about 1 5/8" wide and O Scale is 1/48 so that's 2 1/4" wide. 32mm miniatures, arguably, are closer to 1/56 scale so we are kind of the red-headed step child in the world of scales. My approach is that I prefer that the trains and even the buildings, to a certain aspect, can be a little smaller than the miniatures because I want the miniatures, not the terrain, to dominate the scene.

In the end, to my eye, S looks the best, O is okay, but on the large size and I can't even imagine using G, that would be massive (G Scale is 1/22.5 or 1 inch equals 22.5 inches). Ultimately the only person that needs to be happy with how the train looks on the table is you.

[i_was_like_you]

Ultimately the only person that needs to be happy with how the train looks on the table is you.

*nods* True enough.

Here's how small they seem compared to the loco and tender:

But they seem fine to me next to the cargo cars, at least by today's standards:

But then the trains certainly dwarf the TerraClips buildings:

So, maybe it comes down to a matter of form versus function.

If I want a train that fits my scale better, S or O might be the better bet. But if I want to run a Scrap on a train, G might be the ticket.

[Heisler]

Looking at those pictures, to me at least, the locomotive and cars are way to big. The Engineer and the Fireman should be able to look out the windows of the locomotive while they are standing and they should fill the window from about the elbow to the top of the head, at least for the size locomotives that we are talking about here. On the tender the fireman should be able to see over the sides and back of the tender.

On a typical modern 50' boxcar the door is usually 10' x 10' and the whole thing is only going to be about 11' tall (not to the ground, just the side of the boxcar).

I agree that the bigger G scale might be just what you need to comfortably handle combat inside a train and then shift over to a smaller scale for on table action.

[Omenbringer]

Another notable consideration when comparing minis to model train Scales is that the bases aren't included in the scale heights.

Those bases are one of the biggest culprits of why it is so difficult to get Model Rail Road scales that look correct (though if you take them off their bases you can get them to look much closer).

[i_was_like_you]

Another notable consideration when comparing minis to model train Scales is that the bases aren't included in the scale heights.

Those bases are one of the biggest culprits of why it is so difficult to get Model Rail Road scales that look correct (though if you take them off their bases you can get them to look much closer).

They are very much responsible for it. Each model gets its own personal bubble.

On a typical modern 50' boxcar the door is usually 10' x 10' and the whole thing is only going to be about 11' tall (not to the ground, just the side of the boxcar).

I agree that the bigger G scale might be just what you need to comfortably handle combat inside a train and then shift over to a smaller scale for on table action.

I think one of the problems with the model railroad scales is that, as gamers, we tend to lump everything into one miniature in a one inch square. The reality is far different than that.

Yeah, that definitely seems to be a pitfall. 1" x 1" on the board is roughly 5' x 5' in a lot of minis games.

So, if Malifaux even remotely follows those kinds of measurements, a model with a basic 4/6 walk/charge is actually booking it 20 to 30 ft per move, making a double walk a 40 foot stroll. Typical gun ranges of 10" are a good 50' shot. Whereas a sniper's 16" is 80', and a pigapult launches pork 120'! Colette is able to swap places with another showgirl up to 90' away! The Star must have one heck of a stage.

Assuming that Jakob Lynch is on the upper end of 5' or lower end of 6', the door appears to be roughly 10' x 10' to me. Plenty of room for loading or unloading pallets of freight with a tow motor or even a Steamborg. Double checking the measurement on the doorway, it's 2" x 3", so 10' x 15'. A bit tall.

The body of the car is about 10 1/2" long x 3 1/2" wide x 3 1/2" high (base to roof, the wheels and trucks bring it up to just over 5"). So, 55' x 17.5' x 17.5', making it quite exaggerated, even in a fantasy game.

[Heisler]

To further the exaggeration the boxcar that is only suppose to be 36' long. And it certainly is a bit on the large size when you compare it to the buildings.

Still, I think for an on train combat it works just fine, just pare down to something smaller on the table. I really have the same problem with the laser cut buildings five different manufacturers and they are all slightly different in proportions. Its a give and take that you just have to deal with.

[i_was_like_you]

I really have the same problem with the laser cut buildings five different manufacturers and they are all slightly different in proportions. Its a give and take that you just have to deal with.

Are any of them remotely compatible with the Terraclips scale?

[Heisler]

I don't own any Terraclips or have access to any till the weekend. I'll take the trains with me this weekendand take some pictures.

[i_was_like_you]

Thank you, in advance.

[Heisler]

I was in to much of a hurry yesterday and left the house without my trains so I'm not going to be able to take pictures of them up against the Terraclips buildings. I did take some pictures of the train to show how it goes with the buildings I have finished. Here are a couple of examples:

There are more shots including ones with the baggage car on my blog:

http://wargamesandrailroads.blogspot.com/2013/01/calamity-train-size-vs-building-size.html

[i_was_like_you]

What's been bugging me, off of the assumption (however true or faulty it may be) of 1" = 5', is the gauge. Modern tracks are 4 ft. 8½ in. between the rails. So the track would have to be very narrow to maintain that gauge. Maybe only 2" or so across for the rails and ties, and maybe even ballast. [Which should probably count as severe terrain.] Tracks from that era would probably be even narrower.

I checked your blog pics. They looked good with those buildings, but could you post a couple with tracks on them, please?

[Heisler]

The track I want to use is on order, hopefully it will arrive quickly! Then I'll snap some pictures with the everything on the track.

The distance between the rails has not changed since it was standardized at 4' 8 1/2. The Northern US settled on that gauge early since they were buying many trains from England, the Southern US used broad gauge, about 3" wider. There are two other common gauges in the US, both are considered narrow gauge and are typically used in mountainous regions (like Colorado) and by logging operations they are 3' and 2' between the rails. Equipment tends to be quite a bit smaller. The US completely standardized in 1886 when the South re-spiked all of the rails in a 3 day period. The North and the west had shifted to standard gauge before the Civil War.

And yes, that means that S Scale track is less than an inch between the rails while O Gauge is going to be just over and inch between the rails. So in that context S Scale track is closer to our 1"=5' ground scale.

[i_was_like_you]

The track I want to use is on order, hopefully it will arrive quickly! Then I'll snap some pictures with the everything on the track.

The distance between the rails has not changed since it was standardized at 4' 8 1/2. The Northern US settled on that gauge early since they were buying many trains from England, the Southern US used broad gauge, about 3" wider. There are two other common gauges in the US, both are considered narrow gauge and are typically used in mountainous regions (like Colorado) and by logging operations they are 3' and 2' between the rails. Equipment tends to be quite a bit smaller. The US completely standardized in 1886 when the South re-spiked all of the rails in a 3 day period. The North and the west had shifted to standard gauge before the Civil War.

And yes, that means that S Scale track is less than an inch between the rails while O Gauge is going to be just over and inch between the rails. So in that context S Scale track is closer to our 1"=5' ground scale.

That's all good to know, especially the S track being closest. A half inch of ties on each side would bring that closer to 2", and another half inch or so of ballast would bring it up to 3" of severe terrain, which, at the wrong time, could be downright hazardous, if the train moves during each turn. Lure someone, or otherwise push them onto the tracks before the train moves X inches at end of turn. Would have to be very precise as to the timing as models like Levi that pop back up, would need to be accounted for. Beginning of each activation step might work better.

[Heisler]

Three inches seem like a lot to me. I'll know better though when I get that track, it might be spot on. It could definitely be treated as rough ground, it would also provide cover to anyone that going prone behind it, assuming that's something you can do in Malifaux (I don't play the game).

[redbadger]

some examples of mdf terrain I've picked up, still need to super detail and add some paint

these are from aetherworks and battle flag

Edited January 22, 2013 by redbadger

[i_was_like_you]

I'm stil wanting to get that gallows. Thanks for the pics.

Prone, no, but there is defensive stance which could be considered nearly the same, benefits wise. It slows movement and must be the model's first action, but doesn't otherwise hinder them like prone can in other games. Unless the ballast brings the track up to ht1, it won't offer any extra protecton, and it's not until ht2 that any walls really start to matter.

[Heisler]

Okay, prone behind ballasted railroad track would normally provide substantial cover, you get that in some games and not in others. So I have a picture of a piece of S Scale track with a ruler underneath. With the ties it takes up about 1 1/2 inches across and maybe add a 1/4" of ballast to either side. I have some pictures of my trains on this track. Remember the track is definitely to scale with code 100 rail (very big) and you can see how the trains make the track look small. The visual would change if the track was raised up (probably about 1/4") and ballasted properly. I won't be doing that till I'm ready to start on the actual terrain boards some time down the road. There is also a picture with Battle Flags Undertaker building in the background. I think that one still looks pretty good.

[i_was_like_you]

Looks good.

For Malifaux purposes, I think my ballasting would just be up to 1/2" thick corkboard sections, beveled off on the sides, just to have a decent visual without losing the modular aspect.

Now I'll just have to visit one of the local train shops to see what they have in S that fits my budget and my tastes.

[GreenGremlin]

I love the sarissa buildings.

Still want the church, trainstation and hotel.

For the really cheap buildings, need some work, go here

Www.plastcraftgames.com

[Heisler]

Looks good.

For Malifaux purposes, I think my ballasting would just be up to 1/2" thick corkboard sections, beveled off on the sides, just to have a decent visual without losing the modular aspect.

Now I'll just have to visit one of the local train shops to see what they have in S that fits my budget and my tastes.

Odds are against you finding anything for S Scale in even a dedicated model train store. Its just not a popular scale and there isn't very much available in it. I'm still sorting through the different manufacturers that are out there. The track I used is from Tomalco. The engine and cars are from the American Flyer Frontiersman set from 1959/60. That you are likely to only find on eBay (and there is stuff out there right now). Other options are checking out the narrow gauge for O scale which will have smaller equipment and track more similar to the S scale track in size or possibly rebuilding an HO scale version although that would be a lot of work. So, there are the inherent problems with going with S Scale.