Stopping Kidnap?

[Stargazer]

Hi guys just throwing this up hoping someone could give some advice. One of my main opponents is a Neverborn player and he almost without fail picks Kidnap as one his schemes. The problem is that because you can get 2 VPs without announcing it's really hard to defend against.

He often puts it on my dogs or low ss cost models that I'm likely to kill myself or throw away to gain more corpse counters to summon bigger things. So does anyone have any thoughts or ideas or strategies to stop me giving my opponent 2 VPs every game? Or is it something I just need to man up and deal with as there's nothing I can do about it?

Thanks

Stargazer

[Q'iq'el]

He often puts it on my dogs or low ss cost models that I'm likely to kill myself or throw away to gain more corpse counters to summon bigger things. So does anyone have any thoughts or ideas or strategies to stop me giving my opponent 2 VPs every game? Or is it something I just need to man up and deal with as there's nothing I can do about it?

First thing you have to consider, is that Malifaux is not a fixed-army-list game and shouldn't be played as such. You may have a master and models you like the most, but you should be prepared to change your list dramatically.

Kidnap is not a Scheme you can easily counter with in-game abilities. Sabotage is other similarly difficult one to counter. However if you suspect your opponent may pick up Kidnap, you can go for models which are really hard to kill. Bring the big beefy undead and keep them healed if you can.

Obviously if your own Strategy demands different approach, then you'll have to make compromises or simply forget about countering Kidnap at all - whichever you find a more reliable approach.

[WUWU]

Kidnap is a really potent scheme. Not much you can really do to counter it, as you hire crews before selecting schemes. You just have to focus on your own stuff.

It's somewhat balanced, I guess, as Reclaim Malifaux is a terrible Scheme, so that faction has a little bit less flexibility. Sorta. :/

[Ratty]

There are ways of stopping Kidnap, I've done it a few times.. But I can't talk here... the walls have ears... meet be at the dropbox.

[tadaka]

This may help you a little bit.

Most of the time people who piss people off with that find things that are going to die each game. Models that are dirt cheep and often have a built in ability to die.

Figure out what models he selects of yours and put one in the back field and just play keep away from him. Often its a 2 point model or some thing like that. You only need to keep one alive. If you pick right he gets jack for points. If he does not just play the game. After a bit more often then not you will pick right a few games he will lose because of it and start picking some thing else.

[Q'iq'el]

Not much you can really do to counter it, as you hire crews before selecting schemes.

In theory yes. In practice a lot of players always choose the same scheme, especially if it is one like Kidnap or Army of the Undead. And if I understand the OP correctly, that is exactly what his Neverborn opponent is doing.

Bring a counter crew with lots of healing once or twice and he'll stop selecting Kidnap every time.

I'd say Resurrectionists have it the best against this particular Scheme - you can start with very tough and hard to kill models and then summon your normal models after the game starts (and he can't change his choice anymore).

[Stargazer]

Ok thanks guys yeah I thought there was no real way to counter it. The really annoying part is that it doesn't even have to be him to kill it... even if I kill it or sacrifice it he still gets the points

I'll try a few more things out and we do pick schemes after choosing crews it's just he normally picks Kidnap just cos it's so damn easy to do.

[Zee]

You can also talk to your opponent about making the game a bit more interesting by trying different schemes

[pugwhan]

Another option is to let him have the 2 points and stop his other schemes/strategies. Structure your schemes to work with your strategy.

Example if you have the strategy "deliver a message", take the scheme "Frame for Murder".. Now when you run up to that master to satisfy your scheme he has to think twice about kill the messenger, does he take the message and give you 4 points or does he kill the messenger and give you 2. Now add "Steal relic" and if he doesn't kill, you can grab another 2 points..

Sometimes its advantagous to let him have the 2 pts while you go on to score 8.

[jmp_mydog]

You can also talk to your opponent about making the game a bit more interesting by trying different schemes

Now why would you EVER want to talk to the person you're playing a GAME against. That just seems like crazy talk to me.

But seriously, most people play game to have fun, if you're not having fun you should talk to your opponent about why and then change it.

[emissary]

Now why would you EVER want to talk to the person you're playing a GAME against. That just seems like crazy talk to me.

But seriously, most people play game to have fun, if you're not having fun you should talk to your opponent about why and then change it.

Agreed. We try to do the same thing. Plus it gets stale if you're using the same schemes over and over and ignoring others. If you or your opponent won't consider not using a scheme for one casual game that means nothing, that person needs to reconsider their crutch.

[Hookers]

You can also talk to your opponent about making the game a bit more interesting by trying different schemes

:lollypop: was about to say that!

i tried out the new thwart for the first time the other night, and was able to do it because Z was going for the rezzer one where you have to have more models than you started with (hard), which made the game a lot more fun than both of us bodyguard/holdout

also, i think i'm the only player to ever let jack daw die :der:

but that's beside the point...

in a tournament he can only take it once, so no worries. in fun games, you should try to mix it up to have fun, or just view it as a challenge and if you can beat him taking more difficult schemes then you will be even more prepared for competitive play

[Pink Horror]

Agreed. We try to do the same thing. Plus it gets stale if you're using the same schemes over and over and ignoring others. If you or your opponent won't consider not using a scheme for one casual game that means nothing, that person needs to reconsider their crutch.

Who's really doing the same thing over and over? The guy who chooses a scheme that gives him VP every game because of his opponent's play style, or the opponent who kills his own dogs for the parts every single game, and comes on here to ask if there's some way to stop the strategy, instead of just not killing the stupid dogs?

[Q'iq'el]

It's pretty clear that faction-specific Schemes have some game-balancing role. At least that must be the intent.

Neverborn are more or less about limited crews with expensive models and at least in Book 1 had problems with summoners of all sorts. It's pretty obvious that a Scheme making it hard to sacrifice cheap models and forcing the opponent to bring big and expensive guys is indeed re-balancing the game in Neverborn's favour - either you don't bring a crew which makes Kidnap worth taking, or you give Neverborn 2 VPs and get to keep your crew.

I fail to see this as a problem, because it is so evidently the designer's intent. Just change your crew from time to time and you'll see Kidnap not being taken.

[anathema]

Sounds like you have a couple of solutions:

1. Take one more dog than you need and leave it safe at the back.

This will cost you 2SS you'd normally save by not:

2. Paying the stones to take a crew full of big, tough models you would otherwise summon from the start. Get your body parts/corpse counters from your opponent's crew the old fashioned way.

3. Trade the 2VPs for the summoning power that will hopefully net you more VPs than him in the end.

Asking him to change is not on really , you should be adapting to his tactics especially when you could easily do so. Once you deny Kidnap a few times he'll be forced to change.

My friend's Showgirls usually go for Sabotage and power Ritual. I have to try and ensure that I can get to the Sabotage target first and see what I can do to stop the Ritual. It might actually be worth more to me to ignore the Schemes and deny his strategy while fulfilling mine and maybe nabbing a VP or two from a scheme of my own.

[nachtnebel]

I'm with Q'iq'el: The line up of your crew has a huge influence on your opponents scheme selection.

Schemes are designed to either take advantage of some weaknesses in your opponents line up, to improve your chances against certain crews or to force your opponent to decide between two evils.

Kidnap vs a Nico-Dog-List is a great example for this. Fighting a rezzer crew is a hard struggle for Neverborn cause they have no effective way to remove corpse counters or to use them for their own purpose (expect the Nephilim Shaman). Almost every model that goes down sooner or later bolsters up Nicos crew.

Nightmare crews and Kidnap are Neverborns best answers to rezzer crews, cause they either deny corpse counter or grant an VP advantage if you kill your weak models on your own.

So, the best way to stop Kidnap is to not bring cheap ans squishy models with you. Pick bigger, tougher ones, don't kill your weak models for corpse counters and keep them save behind your front lines.

@anathema

You can only choose one Faction Scheme per leader in your crew (RM p. 73) so your friend can't play Power Ritual and Sabotage at the same time (expect for Brawls).

I also play Sabotage from time to time, but I don't like it, cause it's way to easy. If Showgirls go first they can achieve it before their opponent even moves.

Edited April 28, 2011 by nachtnebel