Did I do this right?

[constructatron]

So I was playing with Ryle the first time last Sunday and created a damage chain that my opponent thought was against the rules. Anyways, here's what happened;

On the attack Ryle triggers fully automatic, then flips red joker for damage for a total of four damage flips

-original attack

-fullyautomatic trigger (+1)

-Red Joker (+1)

-Gatling Gun special for severe damage (+1)

for four flips. I'm assuming that any extra damage flips do not come from the weapon so can not trigger additional gatling gun special flips, otherwise I think it would have been five or six flips. However, this was enough enough to smash Ryles' target and send my opponent in to fits, but is it legit?

[Atherzon]

In short, yes, you did it correctly.

Here is a link to a recent thread in the rules forum that verifies that: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20086.

[goldenjester]

You would be correct on the mechanics. The opponent freak-out isn't unexpected either. Don't worry, a similar situation happened with me-I was rolling Sonnia and flipped the Red Joker on my damage flip for Fire Bursts. I destroyed pretty much his whole crew across the board-6 blast markers.

[Adran]

You would be correct on the mechanics. The opponent freak-out isn't unexpected either. Don't worry, a similar situation happened with me-I was rolling Sonnia and flipped the Red Joker on my damage flip for Fire Bursts. I destroyed pretty much his whole crew across the board-6 blast markers.

The Ryle was rightm, but this isn't.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9632&highlight=joker+blast+markers

The bonus damage from the red Joker only applies to the initial target, it doesn't get extra blast markers from it.

[gunpowder saint]

isn't Red Joker +2?

I mean you flip red, you instantly do severe plus one,

then you flip another because you did severe.

[tadaka]

He also hits a trigger for 2 rams for another card. Total of +4.

[Adran]

isn't Red Joker +2?

I mean you flip red, you instantly do severe plus one,

then you flip another because you did severe.

Yes for the gattling gun.

In Constructacons breakdown he had +1 for the red and +1 for the severe. totalling + 2.

[Ratty]

You would be correct on the mechanics. The opponent freak-out isn't unexpected either. Don't worry, a similar situation happened with me-I was rolling Sonnia and flipped the Red Joker on my damage flip for Fire Bursts. I destroyed pretty much his whole crew across the board-6 blast markers.

This doesn't happen.The initial target would suffer Severe damage + the additional card. The number of blasts and damage taken by people under the blasts only uses the initial card. So on a Red Joker, you would look at the number of blasts on the Severe and then one damage band lower ( Moderate damage) for the amount of damage done to the people under the blast.

[see Rules Manual p46 last paragraph.]

And for the initial Gatling Gun quesion.

Red Joker can count as any suit so you choose :Rams.

You would get 4 damage from the severe on the Red Joker.

+ an additional 1/3/4 due to the red joker.

+ an additional Dg 1/2/4 flip due to the initial flip being Severe (Red Joker)

+ an additional Dg 1/2/4 flip due to having :rams:rams so you are able to activate Fully Automatic trigger.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Ratty

[Elazar]

The trigger isn't on the damage flip though so surely it wouldn't matter what suit you pick for the joker when it's flipped for damage?

[Wodschow]

Red Joker can count as any suit so you choose :rams.

You would get 4 damage from the severe on the Red Joker.

+ an additional 1/3/4 due to the red joker.

+ an additional Dg 1/2/4 flip due to the initial flip being Severe (Red Joker)

+ an additional Dg 1/2/4 flip due to having :rams:rams so you are able to activate Fully Automatic trigger.

Like Elazar said, the :rams does nothing on the Red Joker damage flip as triggers have already been decided by then and the card for damage isn't part of the duel total.

Anyway, could the highlighted additional 1/3/4 flip not trigger a 1/2/4 flip from the Gatling rule if it hit severe? So potentially 20 Dg.. Ouch.

Also, how does this work with armor? Do you total it all and then subtract armor or do you subtract it from every source?

[karn987]

Like Elazar said, the :rams does nothing on the Red Joker damage flip as triggers have already been decided by then and the card for damage isn't part of the duel total.

Anyway, could the highlighted additional 1/3/4 flip not trigger a 1/2/4 flip from the Gatling rule if it hit severe? So potentially 20 Dg.. Ouch.

Also, how does this work with armor? Do you total it all and then subtract armor or do you subtract it from every source?

I believe all the flips total up before hitting armor. Armor comes into play against the attacks damage total after all triggers etc have added to the total (so after the special effects of this weapon).

From the Damage break down posted by Kel:

Damage Resolution

· Damage sequence begins

......§ Before damage effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

...oFate flip for damage, note damage value

......§ During damage effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

......§ Apply damage modifiers to damage value (damage total)

...o Apply damage total to defending model

...o Convert damage total to wound value

......§ Before wounding effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

...o Apply wound modifiers to wound value (wound total)

......§ When wounding effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

...o Apply wound total to defending/affected model(s)

......§ After wounding effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

...o Model(s) reduced to 0 Wounds check killed condition

......§ When killed effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......§ Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

...o Check model(s) Wound total

......§ After killed effects and Triggers occur

......§ Check acting model state and apply modifiers

...o Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

......§ If model has 1 or more Wounds remaining, model remains in play and does not receive killed condition

......§ If model has 0 remaining, remove model(s) from play/the game, model receives killed condition

......§ If killed effects and Triggers occur

...· Damage resolution ends

· After resolving the Duel effects and Triggers occur

......o Check acting model state and apply modifiers

......o Check defending/affected model state(s) and apply modifiers

· Duel ends

In the underlined and Bolded section is where Ryle's weapons special effects would come into play I believe. So they would form one large damage pool as the result of the attack, not several small ones.

But it is certainly debatable I think..

*sets down the Sketch Alter and adds cookies*

[Ratty]

I believe all the flips total up before hitting armor. Armor comes into play against the attacks damage total after all triggers etc have added to the total (so after the special effects of this weapon).

Nope actually each Damage Flip counts as a separate source of damage. So you would get armour with each.

[karn987]

Nope actually each Damage Flip counts as a separate source of damage. So you would get armour with each.

Really? Why so?

I'm curious as to how this actually works out in relation to that damage resolution chart thingy. Is there some sort of keyword here that is causing it to resolve like that? What am I missing basically?

[tadaka]

Wow I would have never thought armor would effect something like a red joker.

[ghostwalker]

If thats the case and each flip counts as a seperate damage 'event' then if a master was the target would they be able to make a prevention flip against each card aswell.

I had been playing it as a single source of damage to be honest. So in the event of a red joker its the severe damage+additional flip=total dmg- Bullet proof/prevention flip etc.

[Sandwich]

And the plot thickens.

For some reason, the over complicated method makes more sense to me, and certainly makes Ryle a Master-murderer.

He's essentially getting 2-3+ damage flips against a single target for 1 AP.

But then again, that's only if the cards favor you.

But then if the cards favor you, some models can do 14-16 damage in a single AP anyway, so I'm going to say it's a fair and balanced method to approach high damage income with a different way of doing so.

Though my LGS played it pretty much the way Ratty laid it down anyway.

Except the Fully Auto Trigger was a part of the initial damage, so it'd be a single mitigation flip, but the Severe 1/3/4 flip was an entirely different damage source.

[Ratty]

To clarify, I was just talking about Automatic Fire and the Gatling Gun rule, both of which say after inflicting damage. When you flip a Red Joker the additional card is part of the same damage flip. So they would add together and then you would modify with armour, spirit etc.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Ratty

[karn987]

To clarify, I was just talking about Automatic Fire and the Gatling Gun rule, both of which say after inflicting damage. When you flip a Red Joker the additional card is part of the same damage flip. So they would add together and then you would modify with armour, spirit etc.

That is what I was missing! Damn this memory of mine. For some reason I thought it said something akin to "After flipping Severe for Damage" and didn't have that wording in it for "after inflicting damage".

Thanks for following up Ratty, much appreciated.

[Ratty]

If thats the case and each flip counts as a seperate damage 'event' then if a master was the target would they be able to make a prevention flip against each card aswell.

I had been playing it as a single source of damage to be honest. So in the event of a red joker its the severe damage+additional flip=total dmg- Bullet proof/prevention flip etc.

Yeah you would. SO

Red Joker + additional Flip -> Armour -> Prevention Flip.

Automatic Fire Flip -> Armour -> Prevention Flip.

Gatling Gun additional Flip -> Armour -> Prevention Flip.

[Ratty]

That is what I was missing! Damn this memory of mine. For some reason I thought it said something akin to "After flipping Severe for Damage" and didn't have that wording in it for "after inflicting damage".

Thanks for following up Ratty, much appreciated.

One of them says Causing, one says Inflicting, they both mean the same thing.

[karn987]

One of them says Causing, one says Inflicting, they both mean the same thing.

Yup got it down, just had the wrong wording in my head XD

At least our Raspy Players will be happy to hear this lol.

[goldenjester]

This doesn't happen.The initial target would suffer Severe damage + the additional card. The number of blasts and damage taken by people under the blasts only uses the initial card. So on a Red Joker, you would look at the number of blasts on the Severe and then one damage band lower ( Moderate damage) for the amount of damage done to the people under the blast.

[see Rules Manual p46 last paragraph.]

Oh! I missed that. I guess that game was before the manual was out, but thanks for the correction. I'll do that right next time lol.