Looking at Ramos

[i_was_like_you]

I love the MT...

I'm giving mine R2-D2's color scheme.

That's cool. I was considering making my spiders look like Portal turret guns.

[naiatoc]

I really think that Ramos needs some more 4-5 point models that are Significant though. Right now, if you only play Ramos, your options are pretty limited for Significant models for certain Strategies.

A buddy of mine plays Ramos and we've come to the same conclusion. My advice to him was to use Hoffman's guys. The Hunter and the Watcher in particular caught my eye.

Do Ramos players typically take some Guild constructs, or does that not help much?

[i_was_like_you]

A buddy of mine plays Ramos and we've come to the same conclusion. My advice to him was to use Hoffman's guys. The Hunter and the Watcher in particular caught my eye.

Do Ramos players typically take some Guild constructs, or does that not help much?

Ramos, alone, can hire the Hunter and the Guardian, as they are both Borrowed Technology, but he can't hire the Watcher.

By the way, nice signature spell.

[LoboStele]

Ramos, alone, can hire the Hunter and the Guardian, as they are both Borrowed Technology, but he can't hire the Watcher.

Yeah, the Watcher would be a GREAT model for Ramos to utilize for some objective grabbing. Honestly though, I don't think the Hunter or Gaurdian would be really that worth it. I'm not convinced yet that the Hunter is worth it in a Hoffman crew, let alone at 1 SS more with Ramos. The Guardian is certainly worth it's weight in gold, but that's partly because of how well it synergizes with Hoffman in terms of Armor, Healing, and the crazy Machine Puppet with Shield that does automatic damage no matter what. About the only thing it offers Ramos is more Armor, and maybe the Protect spell, but I've not yet seen that Ramos necessarily needs that.

Again, neither of those would really help with Strategies all that much either. The Hunter could certainly help in some situations, but again, it's still 7 points. For 2 more points, I'd typically rather have the Spider Swarms (self heal, move almost as fast, have more attacks and better damage). Plus, with the Spiders being Ht 1, even in Swarm form, they are easy to keep completely out of LOS.

[i_was_like_you]

...I'd typically rather have the Spider Swarms (self heal, move almost as fast, have more attacks and better damage). Plus, with the Spiders being Ht 1, even in Swarm form, they are easy to keep completely out of LOS.

Yeah, it seemed that the Swarm was being underestimated on this thread. For a model that may just pop into existence for free, thanks to Ramos's diligent efforts at summoning Arachnids, it certainly packs a punch.

Other than the Miner, it seems to be the only Melee Master (or anything Master so far, but I suspect certain Avatars will be gaining Casting, Melee, or Ranged Master as a trait).

Being able to get in there, attack twice with Melee Master, hopefully triggering Overwhelm to Paralyze a model or two, then still being able to Scatter into separate (slow) Arachnids is quite potent. Then, being able to choose have each of those Arachnids Latch On or turn on their Disruption Fields as (0)s and / or either attack a model they've conveniently been placed in base contact with or just Self Destruct as nails in the coffins of a few models in the vicinity has its own advantages.

Hopefully, by the time you Scatter, you can out activate them with these new models, and face no retaliatory strikes this turn. Win initiative on the new turn, and Swarm them back together for more Melee Master, Paralyzing, Self-Repairing shenanigans.

The more Swarms and lone Arachnids that make it into the fray, the better the possibilities.

[Sobek]

My affair with Ramos in Book 1 has been hit and miss. Against some crews he does amazingly. Against others he gets slaughtered. In my experience, a lot of it comes down to the Strategies, whether he gets a good one or a bad one, and how easy it is to kill his spiders so that they can't hold objectives.

I've been waiting for more of the constructs from Book 2. Mainly the Guardian and the new medium based spider. The Guardian would add a decent amount of protection when it comes to taking, and holding, objectives. And the new medium spider would fill a nice slot between the big Steamborg, and the tissue paper smaller spiders.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'll vouch for the Guardian. It makes an absolutely perfect bodyguard, which is what I use the Steamborg for. At a full 2 stones cheaper, its going to find itself replacing said 'borg.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Okay, I'm digging on this list:

Ramos

-Mobile Toolkit ss3

Guardian ss8

Steampunk Arachnid x3 ss9

Steampunk Arachnid Swarm ss9

Soulstone Miner ss6

I know the Guardian has yet to prove himself to a lot of Ramos players, but I'm absolutely sold. Protect, Stalwart, Disrupt Magic and a bunch more for just 8 stones? Later, Steamborg.

Anyway, this list is much less summon-ey for the first couple of turns, as Ramos heads out to meet whatever requirements set forth by the Strategy. Scheme up Sabotage and Bodyguard, the former being accomplished by your Swarms.

The Guardian/Toolkit combo will keep Ramos alive through even the most aggressive of assaults. Hold onto your high cards so you can get Arcing Screen off with the Toolkit.

I included the Miner as melee support, but you can easily swap him out for more Arachnids, or even a Gunsmith.

[LoboStele]

I really do like the Miner, as it can dig up a Soulstone or two, and then Ramos or the Toolkit can heal it. Also, in this list, you could use the Guardian to Protect Ramos or the Miner, so it wouldn't be a problem for it to take 2-4 Wds for digging up Stones.

This is probably an EXCELLENT list for something like Claim Jump. If you've got Slaughter or Contain Power, I think I'd still want the Steamborg for the high Dg, Paired attack.

[AvatarForm]

My crew is as you listed, minus the SBE.

However, I have 3 spider swarms and 9 individual spiders for different crew lists also.

[LoboStele]

Oooh, just thought of something....Could the Guardian use Protect on the Miner, and then whenever it dug up a Soulstone, the Guardian would take the 2 Wds instead? Then the Guardian just uses Self-Repair on it's own turn.

[Wodschow]

If you think using 14 SS of minions is worth it, then sure, go ahead.. =x

[LoboStele]

If you think using 14 SS of minions is worth it, then sure, go ahead.. =x

Well, you get a couple extra SS at the beginning of the game. Then the Miner can Tunnel and move around late game for whatever you need. Plus, the Guardian can protect whoever else is hanging out in the back (Ramos, Totem, Alyce, etc.)

Probably better tactic for Brawls and such, but still worthwhile to consider, IMO. Only downside is that 2 of your models hang more towards the back for a few rounds.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Another reason to take the Guardian.

You can make your Electrical Creations live forever.

[i_was_like_you]

Picked up my Kaeris crew box tonight, so I can retire my proxy soon. The list I've been running with Ramos the last few go arounds has been:

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos -- 5 Pool

Mobile Toolkit [3ss]

Kaeris [8ss]

Essence of Power [2ss]

Joss [9ss]

Steamborg Executioner (aka Hank)[10ss]

I've had Ramos hang back behind full cover making Steampunk Arachnids and Electrical Creations (sent on suicide missions when any model would get too close) while Kaeris & EoP went after high value targets and Joss and Hank eliminated threats on my flanks.

It's worked fairly well for me so far, but I think I'm going to finally throw Alyce into my list and get a bit more aggressive, spawning new models only as need be when opportunity arises. My new list (Ramos' Angels) is:

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos -- 8 Pool (maybe dropping down to 6 for avatar)

Mobile Toolkit [3ss]

Kaeris [8ss]

Essence of Power [2ss]

Gunsmith [6ss]

Rusty Alyce [10ss]

Thoughts?

[LoboStele]

I think 6 activations for any 35 point crew is a little on the light side, but with Ramos pumping out Arachnids/Electrical Creation every turn, it might not be too bad. Overall, the combo of Alyce and Kaeris is definitely nice for some pretty effective ranged punch.

[i_was_like_you]

My previous build had the same but quickly grew to outnumber my opponent's crew through the Arachnids/Electrical Creation every turn combined with whittling down a model or two a turn.

With Alyce around providing 2 extra cards, the occasional (painful) reactivate, and maybe a Steampunk Abomination from time to time, not to mention her ranged attacks and her other tricks, I think she'll definitely turn the tide.

If I do pay for Ramos' avatar, that threat alone should either lure my opponents into kill range in an attempt to shut him down before that happens or make them give Ramos a wider berth to avoid fulfilling his second manifest requirement of 8wds to enemy models through Electrical Fire, cutting a clean path to any objective he should make his way towards.

Of the many Ramos threads on here, is there one you recommend for better tactics, especially on getting to avatar in a hurry?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

A totem is necessary to guaranty turn 2 all manifest. With tool kit you can summon two electrical creations more likely with tome, but you have to do moderate damage from electrical fire on creation. If you fail to do so then you are looking at turn 3 manifest.

With brass arachnid giving reactivate out, you can pump two spiders or two electrical creations. Then manifest turn 2 with all but be granted reactivate before AP you can still do stuff turn 2. So 4ss to almost guaranty turn 2 manifest and avatar activation turn 2 is my suggestion.

You can also use the doll so you can get one more casting off and if you use the doll you won't have to remove it when you manifest like a totem. The doll will limit crew selection and doesn't gives a worse chance for turn 2 manifest than with taking the totems.

If kaeris could take toolkit then it would be much easier. But seeing how Ramos is the one of the few if not only avatar who has most of his original abilities and is basically better in every way ***note: only downside of manifesting bin is he is more dependant on soulstones because he is more likely to be in the fray. I wouldn't take his avatar every time but I would be hard pressed not too late game manifest like turn 3 or 4 is still good.

[Tograth]

Bigglesworth, the wording of the manifest requirements is 2 castings of Summon Arachnid or Summon EC.

Because it has and / or in there, it means that you can satisfy the manifext requirement in a single activation, first turn - salvage under fire, summon spider, casting expert to summon EC.

[i_was_like_you]

Bigglesworth, the wording of the manifest requirements is 2 castings of Summon Arachnid or Summon EC.

Because it has and / or in there, it means that you can satisfy the manifext requirement in a single activation, first turn - salvage under fire, summon spider, casting expert to summon EC.

That's what I thought, it just seemed like too easy of a requirement to ask Ramos to do what he does first turn anyways.

A totem is necessary to guaranty turn 2 all manifest. With tool kit you can summon two electrical creations more likely with tome, but you have to do moderate damage from electrical fire on creation. If you fail to do so then you are looking at turn 3 manifest.

With brass arachnid giving reactivate out, you can pump two spiders or two electrical creations. Then manifest turn 2 with all but be granted reactivate before AP you can still do stuff turn 2. So 4ss to almost guaranty turn 2 manifest and avatar activation turn 2 is my suggestion.

You can also use the doll so you can get one more casting off and if you use the doll you won't have to remove it when you manifest like a totem. The doll will limit crew selection and doesn't gives a worse chance for turn 2 manifest than with taking the totems.

If kaeris could take toolkit then it would be much easier. But seeing how Ramos is the one of the few if not only avatar who has most of his original abilities and is basically better in every way ***note: only downside of manifesting bin is he is more dependant on soulstones because he is more likely to be in the fray. I wouldn't take his avatar every time but I would be hard pressed not too late game manifest like turn 3 or 4 is still good.

Alyce has been using Burnout on Ramos, granting him reactivate, but reducing him to one wound at the start closing phasing. It's not always the safest of gambles, but it does get the job done.

The second :tomes from the Mobile Toolkit is definitely something he needs for summoning spiders and wub-wubs. It is a pity it can only tag along with Ramos or Hoffman instead of Kaeris. [in a brawl, both Ramos and Hoffman can have one if need be, as it's not a unique.] Its Weld Together ability is also helpful for putting Doctor Ramos back together again the turn after Burnout. Ramos can then use Combat Mechanic to kill the Toolkit for another healing flip, using a soulstone for a third healing flip this turn if need be, or waiting for manifest to spend the stone for the same.

Ramos' Electrical Fire manifest requirement states that he has to inflict 8Wd on enemy models, so getting him into range with them, if they haven't already made a mad dash for him can be a slow endeavor. Holding high cards and having the soulstones to use to ensure he hits with no mods or a positive flip to damage, so that we can cheat in severe damage, or even the Red Joker, will make it worth it.

The doll might be fun, but I'd still rather have access to Kaeris and other M&SU Assets than just the doll. They do a great job of softening up the opposition at range so he can close in for the kill. I'm quite willing to kill the Toolkit to heal the Doc before he manifests. Alyce lets me draw two extra cards, as long as she stays nearby, even if I do have to discard them. It's like having Lilith's Rush of Magic twice.

Edited October 24, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[Tograth]

One thing I'd been toying with doing was the following:

Take a large steampunk arachnid, Ramos, Lazarus and the toolkit.

Turn 1, you use wobble the toolkit a bit, use up an activation. Next, the toolkit goes and lab equipment's Ramos, followed by controlled detonation on the LSPA.

Next, Lazarus moves, picks up 2 of the 3 scrap counters that the LSPA drops, and assimilates Use Soulstone permanently.

Finally, Ramos moves twice, Summons spider (from the third scrap counter) and summons EC. This means next turn you are most likely close enough to move once or twice and easily have reach to enemy models (deploy on the edge of the deployment zone, 6" moves, 12" range on electrical Fire).

Turn 2, you use the toolkit to lab equipment Ramos and cast one of Ramos' spells, use Lazarus to assimilate controlled detonation which he then uses on the toolkit.

Ramos goes, summons spider, and moves /casts electrical fire to get his second manifest requirement.

start of turn 3 you should have both your manifest requirements, Lazarus the henchman with use SS, and 2 spiders running forward to cause trouble. And the best part is that its rather difficult for your opponent to stop this from happening.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Bigglesworth, the wording of the manifest requirements is 2 castings of Summon Arachnid or Summon EC.

Because it has and / or in there, it means that you can satisfy the manifext requirement in a single activation, first turn - salvage under fire, summon spider, casting expert to summon EC.

I understand the summon requirement is 2 of one. I acknowledge that in my first post. And since ec is unique that is why you have to kill it before summoning again. Since ec. Doesn't require a scrap you can do it by killing it. Since it is a spirit you have to use magic, hence his electrical fire spell and so you have to do moderate.

Scenario mobile toolkit spelled out.

Mobile acts gives Ramos tome

Ramos activates summons electrical creation

Shoots electrical creations cheats for straight flip so cam do mod damage ec killed.

Last AP summons another ec.

Turn 2 all manifest.

Scenario brass

Brass gives Ramos reactivate.

Ramos salvage underfire

0 Simmons spider.

Reactivate Ramos repeat... Or summon ec kill ec Summons again, will have the opportunity to fail your attempt a few times if trying this method.

With doll o think you can figure that out.

In summary turn 2 manifest mobile toolkit is easiest way because it only requires your hand and no black joker. Given you get surge for each cast it only makes it easier.

Brass gives more attempts, but for 2 reasons o would take it instead. 1) cheaper 1 ss can make a difference. 2) reactivate on turn two so Ramos can summon more or get his electrical dmg requirements and manifest with 2 ap so he can leap and melee expert. This also gives you a lot of chances to succeed since I'm a full glass guy (or fail for you halfers).

Hope this is more clear. I type on a phone that changes a lot of things when I mistype.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[i_was_like_you]

One thing I'd been toying with doing was the following:

Take a large steampunk arachnid, Ramos, Lazarus and the toolkit.

Turn 1, you use wobble the toolkit a bit, use up an activation. Next, the toolkit goes and lab equipment's Ramos, followed by controlled detonation on the LSPA.

Next, Lazarus moves, picks up 2 of the 3 scrap counters that the LSPA drops, and assimilates Use Soulstone permanently.

Finally, Ramos moves twice, Summons spider (from the third scrap counter) and summons EC. This means next turn you are most likely close enough to move once or twice and easily have reach to enemy models (deploy on the edge of the deployment zone, 6" moves, 12" range on electrical Fire).

Turn 2, you use the toolkit to lab equipment Ramos and cast one of Ramos' spells, use Lazarus to assimilate controlled detonation which he then uses on the toolkit.

Ramos goes, summons spider, and moves /casts electrical fire to get his second manifest requirement.

start of turn 3 you should have both your manifest requirements, Lazarus the henchman with use SS, and 2 spiders running forward to cause trouble. And the best part is that its rather difficult for your opponent to stop this from happening.

Did they change the LSPA into a 50mm base? If not, he only drops 2 scrap counters for being a 40mm. It still lets you pull off those Lazarus shenanigans, which look fun.

Ramos can still Salvage Under Fire for the other scrap counter to summon the Arachnid, but he won't be able to move on that activation.

Question on the wording of his second requirement:

It's phrased as Ramos inflicts 8 Wd on enemy models with the Electrical Fire spell.

Does that mean he has to actually make a model or models take 8 Wd, or is sending the 8 Dg on them enough, even if they do prevention flips, etc.?

Does it matter if the model cannot take the full 8 Wd even if he successfully inflicts it (no prevention flips, etc.) or does he have to spread it out over multiple models until he's inflicted 8 total Wd?

I understand the summon requirement is 2 of one. I acknowledge that in my first post. And since ec is unique that is why you have to kill it before summoning again. Since ec. Doesn't require a scrap you can do it by killing it. Since it is a spirit you have to use magic, hence his electrical fire spell and so you have to do moderate.

Scenario mobile toolkit spelled out.

Mobile acts gives Ramos tome

Ramos activates summons electrical creation

Shoots electrical creations cheats for straight flip so cam do mod damage ec killed.

Last AP summons another ec.

Turn 2 all manifest.

Scenario brass

Brass gives Ramos reactivate.

Ramos salvage underfire

0 Simmons spider.

Reactivate Ramos repeat... Or summon ec kill ec Simmons again, will have the opportunity to fail your attempt a few times if trying this method.

With doll o think you can figure that out.

In summary turn 2 manifest mobile toolkit is easiest way because it only requires your hand and no black joker. Given you get surge for each cast it only makes it easier.

Brass gives more attempts, but for 2 reasons o would take it instead. 1) cheaper 1 ss can make a difference. 2) reactivate on turn two so Ramos can possibly get a turn two avatar activation. This also gives you a lot of chances to succeed since I'm a full glass guy (or fail for you halfers).

Hope this is more clear. I type on a phone that changes a lot of things when I mistype.

Yeah, the EC is unique. When I need to get rid of it the turn I've summoned it, I just make sure to have summoned it away from my other models and just use its remaining 1AP (after slow) to Burst.

So I can summon one EC, move Ramos twice burst the EC, reactivate Ramos, move him again once or twice, summon a second EC much closer to the enemy, requirement met. It doesn't net me any arachnids to make a swarm, but let's just say I'm not going that route. And maybe, instead of that second set of moves, we're lucky enough to have an enemy model in range that we manage to fry with Electrical Fire for 8 Wd. Waiting until the end of the activation order to activate Ramos could make this a strong possibility. But to be able to wait that long means having more models, and thus more activations than our opponent, which'll require many lower cost models and not using Companion or other abilities that allow for simultaneous activations.

The Brass would make that easier, as Ramos wouldn't need to heal the turn after Burnout, but it wouldn't give him the 2nd :tomes he needs either, so we'd have to have a pair of 7 or higher :tomes in our starting hands just for the pair of EC, plus an 11 or higher :tomes to have the Brass use Stoke on Ramos for the reactivate. It makes this strategy very starting hand dependent, but when it works, it'll be devastating

Also, with Brass, having Reactivate on hand means the Doctor could do all kinds of nastiness on turn 2, before or after manifesting. Of course he'll have to take advantage of the Reactivate before he manifests, as all effects fall off and he should probably use the Brass for one last trick (since it gets removed from the game, no scrap counter to show it was ever there), such as frying something else with Electrical Fire, summoning an EC (assuming we've disposed of the last one), or using Combat Medic, killing itself (and dropping a scrap counter in the process) to heal the Doc or another friendly construct nearby.

That does give him his second activation to make use of his Casting Expert, manifest, maybe even make use of his new found Melee Expert, possibly using Leap to close up to a 10" difference (8" Cg distance from Leap plus 2" melee reach from Mechanical Limb). If we don't use his 0 on Leap, we have all of the options of Innovative Design at our disposal, assuming we have enough scrap counters to pay for them.

Speaking of Innovative Design, just so I'm certain, its first, third, and fourth uses, state that they last until this model takes the Innovative Design Action again. Since it lists when it ends (and since it does require a cost of scrap counters) it supersedes the until closing phase most spells and effects have, right?

Arcane Effigy: An extra card that I get to keep, nice. An extra AP for cast or channel actions, not bad.

So, with it I could move Ramos twice and still cast two spells. Not quite as useful as reactivate, in my opinion, but still a viable option.

[LoboStele]

Did they change the LSPA into a 50mm base? If not, he only drops 2 scrap counters for being a 40mm. It still lets you pull off those Lazarus shenanigans, which look fun.

Yup, Large SPA is on a 50mm base. Very awesome.

It's phrased as Ramos inflicts 8 Wd on enemy models with the Electrical Fire spell.

Does that mean he has to actually make a model or models take 8 Wd, or is sending the 8 Dg on them enough, even if they do prevention flips, etc.?

Does it matter if the model cannot take the full 8 Wd even if he successfully inflicts it (no prevention flips, etc.) or does he have to spread it out over multiple models until he's inflicted 8 total Wd?

Your suspicion is correct. If a model only has 1 Wd left, yet you hit it for Severe with Electrical Fire, you still only inflicted 1 Wd. Luckily, Electrical Fire ignores Armor, so that doesn't decrease the Wds inflicted very often. But a Wd Prevention flip with a Soulstone would cause you to do less Wds overall as well, and slow down that Manifest step.

Speaking of Innovative Design, just so I'm certain, its first, third, and fourth uses, state that they last until this model takes the Innovative Design Action again. Since it lists when it ends (and since it does require a cost of scrap counters) it supersedes the until closing phase most spells and effects have, right?

Yep, you're correct. Innovative Design effects don't go away during the Resolve Effects Phase.

As for the Reactivate tricks....using Burn Out from Alyce on Ramos isn't a terrible idea, but against a lot of Masters, they could send an Alpha strike of sorts across the board and kill Ramos before you have a chance to heal him. If you really want to get into Avatar form that early, I suggest going with the Mobile Toolkit.

One trick to remember with Alyce and Burn Out though, is this. Say you are planning to Manifest during Turn 3. At the beginning of Turn 3, you can cast Burn Out on Ramos. Activate Ramos one time, and then during his 2nd activation, that's when you Manifest. Then, during the Manifest steps, all effects are removed, and therefore, Ramos won't drop down to 1 Wd during the Closing Phase.

Also, for tricks with Lazarus, there are much better methods, IMO, rather than killing an LSPA right from the very start of the game.

[Tograth]

Bigglesworth, you misunderstood what I meant.

The way the manifest requirement is written, you can successfully complete it in 3 different ways:

1) cast summon electrical creation twice

2) cast summon spider twice

3) cast summon electrical creation once and summon spider once.

the reason is that the wording is explicit as follows:

"Ramos successfuly casts Electrical Creation and/or Construct Spider twice".

If it was meant that you had to cast one of the two spells twice, then it would not have the "and" in there.

with regards the LSPA - yup. Wierd confirmed it to be on a 50mm base back in august I believe. it went from being good to being the very best value scrap counters for soulstones in the books.

@Lobo - I agree that the LSPA is boss. however, for the first two turns it simply isnt quite fast enough to be all that useful, since its not gonna be getting into combat. If you are planning on avataring anyway, you can effectively have it back turn 3 for pretty much peanuts with Ramos' Hasty Assembly ability, and it'll be able to be right in the thick of things from the get go.

Speaking of Lazarus, however, do you have any suggestions for him?