Sandwich Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I will shut the hell up about Hamelin being broken and apologize for criticizing Wyrd. This Balances out his crew oddly well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Looks like thats the change. Thing is me and a friend were saying the main issue is the rat catchers are a major PITA to kill off. I dont know how they can fix the Ug this crew is no fun to play vs thing people have brought up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I will shut the hell up about Hamelin being broken and apologize for criticizing Wyrd. This Balances out his crew oddly well. Apology accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sezar Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Was that really the only fix needed to balance him out? :theyareon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Well this and breaking the infinite loop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradox Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 6 wounds since when? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 6 wounds since when? At card printing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 6 wounds since when? Since they were released officially. Wyrd dropped off stock to CMON at A-con so some people got a hold of the models last weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I dont know how they can fix the Ug this crew is no fun to play vs thing people have brought up. ending the limitless potential for rats to essentially repeatedly gain reactivate, and the amount of time spent summoning rats into base to base (moving them fractions of an inch every single time instead of just staying where they are) would go a long way in my opinion. there's a little more going on than that (all of his noob traps), but that is the essence of what sucks playing him. i have always played the rat catchers as 6 wd and so my opinions are already based on that. also sandwich, i never took your posts as criticizing wyrd. its far different to bring attention to things that deserve the attention, than saying "you're a bad company for doing this in the first place." the fact that wyrd is willing to address things as they are needed instead of sweeping them under the rug is what makes them a great company. :bigok: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 :bows: The dev crew debated this one among themselves! Just broken enough to warrant a change - not enough for a major overhaul! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 If I had room in my sigline I'd add your post, Sandwich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Was that really the only fix needed to balance him out? :theyareon He is still powerful and a solid master but being as people were all ready split on was he op or where he should be this should fix the crew to about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 The only other change I would want for him,is to make it so he can't make Masters insignificant. Or that his ability to make models insignificant went away at the end of the turn. This would mean that with good planning and positioning he could prevent a immediate threat from attacking him,and or prevent a model from grabbing the treasure or activating some other strategy based objective but would still mean that he wouldn't be able to shut down a low count gang on every aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) Was that really the only fix needed to balance him out? :theyareon It forces the player to conserve resources often to keep their Catchers alive, it makes it so that they can be killed quicker, it also makes it so they are no longer the only 5 point model in the game with 8 Wd, Armor +2, a very reliable way to fully heal often,and a Wp->13 duel that about 50% of your opponent's crew will need make in order to even try to touch him. It works well to remove a lot of the problems with the crew overall. ending the limitless potential for rats to essentially repeatedly gain reactivate, and the amount of time spent summoning rats into base to base (moving them fractions of an inch every single time instead of just staying where they are) would go a long way in my opinion. there's a little more going on than that (all of his noob traps), but that is the essence of what sucks playing him. i have always played the rat catchers as 6 wd and so my opinions are already based on that. also sandwich, i never took your posts as criticizing wyrd. its far different to bring attention to things that deserve the attention, than saying "you're a bad company for doing this in the first place." the fact that wyrd is willing to address things as they are needed instead of sweeping them under the rug is what makes them a great company. :bigok: People have kind of come to just not kill the Rats anymore with me. Also, with consent from the other player, you can just take a tape measure and push them all an inch forward. Although in a Tournament moving your Rats would be hell. :/ And I'd agree, Wyrd is rather dandy. The only other change I would want for him,is to make it so he can't make Masters insignificant. Or that his ability to make models insignificant went away at the end of the turn. This would mean that with good planning and positioning he could prevent a immediate threat from attacking him,and or prevent a model from grabbing the treasure or activating some other strategy based objective but would still mean that he wouldn't be able to shut down a low count gang on every aspect. Honestly, he needs Bully to stick the way it is, especially with the change in Indiscriminate Void. For a master, he's not that tanky. 5 Df, 12 Wd and nothing to augment that aside from Bully means that without Bully he would be dead a lot. Most masters that do the killing (Lilith, Perdita) would utterly wreck Hamelin if he couldn't stop them from doing so. Edited April 6, 2011 by Sandwich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I have not found the rats that hard to move around. 90% of the time its one rat moves make sure the rest are in 5 inches and just place place place place. When it comes to combat it is all most all ways 0 move 0 to get + on flips and attack rats done. Only time it bogs down is the first few times playing the crew and when the other guy goes how does that work. I run in to the same issue when I played levi tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Well,making it so that it went away at the end of the round,would mean that in order to keep a master locked down,it would take alot of his resources to do. Making it a fire and forget ability makes it really nasty. And as far as it goes,I just looked at the Masters I have. Sonnia has 10 wds,df 4,and granted can shut down casting,but melee will tear her a new one. Von schill has armor 1,10 wds and 5 df. His survivability comes with slow to die/soulstones. Seamus is fairly tanky with his hard to wound and kill and easy ways to heal himself. And as far as it goes,MOST masters if they get into a fist fight with lilith,or a gunfight with perdita,are going to get hosed. Thats kind of what those masters do. The ones that dont,are the ones that can find ways to escape it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Honestly, he needs Bully to stick the way it is, especially with the change in Indiscriminate Void. For a master, he's not that tanky. 5 Df, 12 Wd and nothing to augment that aside from Bully means that without Bully he would be dead a lot. Most masters that do the killing (Lilith, Perdita) would utterly wreck Hamelin if he couldn't stop them from doing so. For me it's similar to Pandora, she's quite squishy but bolstered by a WP duel to target her and the ability to pass attacks onto other models. For the record I think this change will make a big difference and we'll see rat catchers (and their swarms) being being killed a lot more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sezar Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I don't really see how can reducing 2 Wd on Rat Catchers really balances the whole crew, but that might be just me. That can balance some stuff, but won't fix it all. Also, saying Hamelin would die easy without Bully and that he really needs it in order to live is a bit too much to me. There are a lot of other Masters with crappier stats, and 95% of those don't even have any chance to "resurrect" every turn, so where does that leave them then? And yeah, I'm a Hamelin (and some other Masters) player myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 so instead now he's the only 5 point model in the game with 6 Wd, Armor +2, a very reliable way to fully heal often,and a Wp->13 duel that about 50% of your opponent's crew will need make in order to even try to touch him. i don't really see your point, since you go on to name the other cool stuff about him. and really despite all of that remove slaughter and they practically don't do anything anymore. People have kind of come to just not kill the Rats anymore with me. i hope you think better of me than that. the first time you kill a rat its obvious you should never do that again. some models don't have a choice (black blood, explode when they die, etc.) or get obeyed into using pulses or killing rats in other ways. plus they get 3 activations minimum, unless you kill a rat catcher then they get another one (summon a new one who can slaughter again). i think the biggest difference comes from how hamelin is being played. i've seen other people mention now that 2 rat catchers are not essential. if they were rare 1 i wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. you are correct that it is not essential to take 2 in order to beat people, because there are tons of other effective things he can do. it is probably more fun to play him like that. however, there is not a doubt in my mind, that using 2 rat catchers and simply letting the rats kill everything for you is the most effective and safest way to play him. just because not everyone does play him like that does not make it ok. that is what makes the game take forever, and what makes your opponent feel like nothing he does matters. people have said well you just get fast at place them and it doesn't take that long. it's still a mechanic that doesn't add anything to the gameplay. summon into base to base opposed to summon exactly where they were. hell we even play it like that now and it still takes forever. so many activations. rat teleports, attacks with a plus flip x 5. do it again. do it again. that takes awhile. and thats at the beginning of the game, before any of the opponent's models have died or stolen have been summoned. just because you don't abuse them like that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed to fix it. if i had a video camera i'd show you what i'm talking about because i think you really have to see it in person to fully understand. but you probably wouldn't want to watch a 3 hour video anyways... again i want to stress that it has nothing to do with power level. hamelin could literally say "automatically give your opponent 8 vps" and i wouldn't want to play against him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Played two "official" games, and then an additional game. Opinion is no longer based upon theoryfauxing. Still no Rat Catcher card, so we played basically with just the 6 wd change, and the errata on Indiscriminate Void. It appears that with the buff to Indiscriminate Void, the cuddle to the Rat Catchers goes unnoticed. Gah. I did lose two Rat Catchers, one in one game, one in another, but due to the altercation to my playstyle, I was not at all adversely effected whatsoever. It appears now that Hamelin has a 100% increase to long term mobility. Grouping up has become effective. Alp bombs are 100% ineffective against Hamelin, strategem will be posted on why in the Hamelin Tactica in further detail. Basics of this are simple. 2 groups. Group 1 Rat Catcher Nix Rats Group 2 Hamelin Hamelin will absorb the swarm via (1)Irresistible Lure. Suffering vast amounts of Wd. Be sure to peg LCB with Insignificant, I was able to do this twice, it should not be hard. Since Slow cannot stack, you will always have 2 AP at least. A Wp->12 with Wp 8 at a -3-6 flip is actually fairly possible. In one game, I managed to make LCB Insignificant AND hit him with (1)Inevitable Truth, I did not attempt to in the game with the Alp Bomb. It was not a necessity. With -2 Wp from No Humanity, it requires a 10+ of anything to hit your Rat Catcher (Known from here on out as RC). Couple the swarm with (0)Emptiness and he will not hit you, unless he burns through SS. Coppelius is a terrible idea to counter a Rat Swarm, The Dying Dream leads to endless activations. The RC is now far less tanky, being able to be slain in a single activation from a 9+ SS model. Though I quickly recovered and renewed my swarm. An Alp bomb is effective at out-activating Hamelin, but this does not matter as your Alps are generally locked down. The counter to an Alp Bomb is simply spamming (1)Irresistible Lure. Dg 0/3/6 will eventually kill off the Bomb, usually quickly. To do so you will take between 3-6 Dg. Even with slow this is very effective, as a high card and a single SS = guaranteed lure. (Really just an 11+ of anything will work very, very, very well) (1)Irresistible Lure works very well to lock the entire bomb in place and possibly kill off a few. The Alps outright cannot target you due to Bully, so there's no fear from any of their Actions / Spells. The damage taken is substantial but is easily recovered by either death (Which is optional) or (1)Abandon Soul. Both choices do leave your master worthless for a single turn, but your Rat Swarm can easily destroy / complete objectives / other models. All in all I felt very much the same as I did before. My opponent and I worked together to get correct positioning and card maintenence in order to attempt to take down Hamelin, but to no avail. I would definately say he's easier to take down, but considering how hard he was to take down before, I don't know how much easier that is. Edited April 8, 2011 by Sandwich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 so instead now he's i don't really see your point, since you go on to name the other cool stuff about him. and really despite all of that remove slaughter and they practically don't do anything anymore. i hope you think better of me than that. the first time you kill a rat its obvious you should never do that again. some models don't have a choice (black blood, explode when they die, etc.) or get obeyed into using pulses or killing rats in other ways. plus they get 3 activations minimum, unless you kill a rat catcher then they get another one (summon a new one who can slaughter again). i think the biggest difference comes from how hamelin is being played. i've seen other people mention now that 2 rat catchers are not essential. if they were rare 1 i wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. you are correct that it is not essential to take 2 in order to beat people, because there are tons of other effective things he can do. it is probably more fun to play him like that. however, there is not a doubt in my mind, that using 2 rat catchers and simply letting the rats kill everything for you is the most effective and safest way to play him. just because not everyone does play him like that does not make it ok. that is what makes the game take forever, and what makes your opponent feel like nothing he does matters. people have said well you just get fast at place them and it doesn't take that long. it's still a mechanic that doesn't add anything to the gameplay. summon into base to base opposed to summon exactly where they were. hell we even play it like that now and it still takes forever. so many activations. rat teleports, attacks with a plus flip x 5. do it again. do it again. that takes awhile. and thats at the beginning of the game, before any of the opponent's models have died or stolen have been summoned. just because you don't abuse them like that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed to fix it. if i had a video camera i'd show you what i'm talking about because i think you really have to see it in person to fully understand. but you probably wouldn't want to watch a 3 hour video anyways... again i want to stress that it has nothing to do with power level. hamelin could literally say "automatically give your opponent 8 vps" and i wouldn't want to play against him I was wrong to dissent from my opinion. I will remain silent on the matter however. Know that I agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 The mobility dreamer and the placement of hamelin separate from his crew would allow the dreamer to swoop in and kill ham and a stolen. Once both are dead before then ham is permanently dead. You are correct alps dropped into the middle of rats bad idea. However I can counter with incite on whatever I surround the alps with. Since you can alpha strike with ham's crew that means I could probably kill nix or a rc. Day dreamer can bury after damage is done. This above strategy is no way a guarantee but it is one for the dreamer that is far more effective then what you mentioned in your post. I will concede that baby kade is not my first pick with dreamer he has little to no synergy, however incite is powerful counter to ham's crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 The mobility dreamer and the placement of hamelin separate from his crew would allow the dreamer to swoop in and kill ham and a stolen. Once both are dead before then ham is permanently dead. You are correct alps dropped into the middle of rats bad idea. However I can counter with incite on whatever I surround the alps with. Since you can alpha strike with ham's crew that means I could probably kill nix or a rc. Day dreamer can bury after damage is done. This above strategy is no way a guarantee but it is one for the dreamer that is far more effective then what you mentioned in your post. I will concede that baby kade is not my first pick with dreamer he has little to no synergy, however incite is powerful counter to ham's crew. How exactly would you incite if taking the dreamer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 How exactly would you incite if taking the dreamer? Kade, I would assume. He pairs well enough with Teddy (who is a Nightmare) that I've seen him in more than one Dreamer list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 How exactly would you incite if taking the dreamer? I thought I mentioned baby kade in the second paragraph. I type on my phone so my view is limited. Also darn phone likes to change what I type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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