When does Hamelin's insignificant end

[magicpockets]

I can't find the original thread to necro to get this answer so thought it'd make sense to repost it for an answer.

If Hamelin's crew makes stuff insignificant, when does it end? The skills etc say "until the end of the encounter" - so does insignificant end before VPs are calculated which happens after the end of the game?

[Q'iq'el]

it would have to be the kirai/mcmourning "summon out of thin air" kind of summoning because there won't be any counters

Nicodem has ways of protecting his counters - remember the stuff model carries can't be destroyed by other models, unless their spell specifically permits it. Vultures can teleport all the counters lying around them directly into Nicodem's possession.

Not a perfect solution, as the opponent will be able to destroy some tokens in-between activations, but he can still count on reclaiming the ones his own minions drop.

[Hookers]

:dead:

Not a perfect solution, as the opponent will be able to destroy some tokens in-between activations, but he can still count on reclaiming the ones his own minions drop.

Well how did his own minions drop those counters? Probably because they were killed by rats, which will be able to destroy the counters before you activate.

Also Hamelin himself keeps the crew from being insignificant. Nix and Hamelin are both extremely difficult to kill. But yes, you are correct if you manage to kill them both then you are doing well.

Though I could honestly care less about Hamelin nowadays. I know what he does, I know how he plays, I know why its bad and is not fun for anyone, but its not going to change so I just avoid him to the extent that I can.

:goodnight

[schristofersen]

hmm... lame... I missed that hamelin himself has nihilism as well.

I agree. No fun and worse than demons in 7th ed warhammer fantasy.

[Necromorph]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.

The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

[magicpockets]

Nicodem has ways of protecting his counters - remember the stuff model carries can't be destroyed by other models' date=' unless their spell specifically permits it. [/quote']

Just to add, remember mindless zombies count as corpse counters - these can be used as rat food

[schristofersen]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.

The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

This and "OMG Collodi!" threads give me hope that the solution of balance by more broken might already be there... I just have not looked hard enough. We will see.

[magicpockets]

This and "OMG Collodi!" threads give me hope that the solution of balance by more broken might already be there...

But it'll be a sad day if thats how "balance" happens

[schristofersen]

But it'll be a sad day if thats how "balance" happens

I dunno... I prefer it to getting bored to tears like with fallen empires and homelands in M:tg.

I am more and more convinced that Hamelin needs some balancing but I don't mind how that happens. I'll stop necro threading this along and switch to the ways to deal with Hamelin thread I think.

[Odin1981]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.

The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

The players you have been playing lately aren't even that experianced with guild, are new to the game, and don't know how to use the guild correctly.

Anytime you want Adrian i'll willingly dust off my dita list against hamelin. I don't think he is that bad (granted all but one model in my list can wipe off insignificant). I'm not scared off him in the slightest because two models (hamelin and nix) can't beat my army.

Granted I understand most factions don't have alot of end effect on models and I don't own a crew based on ht 1 models but given the rock paper scissors aspect of this game he really doesn't seem that bad unless you face him with a faction or model count that just can't kill him.

I personally believe most(not all) people just get emotionally invested in what they want to run and when faced with a crew that counters what they are good at instead of changing around their crew accordingly or adjusting tactics to be able to give them matches that fairly even (thus becoming skill vs skill based not this crew vs this crew).

If you were to look at the this board and see most of the complaining about stuff (mainly these days book 2 stuff) it can be broken down into a few things:

Alot of the new crews featured in book 2 are speed crews (eldar for those familiar with 40k).

Most of the people that complain about this point more than likely have book 1 crews without alot of book 2 additions, deploy very sporadically and are not focused in a given area.

They also more than likely do not move their crews as a unit and have some things just go here and there for schemes, strats, and important kill priority models.

The big advantage this gives the speed crews is that it fits directly into what they are good at pick a model or two each turn and focus fire down and the their speed (inferior most cases) versus our speed factor(superior) for objectives.

The other big thing is lack of familiarity/experiance in dealing with said crews or quite possibly lack of the right combination of models your faction has that can counteract what the opposing crew can do (for example lilith vs perdita if the dita player wins they are playing on a board with like no terrain, gremlins vs hamelin lol do i really have to go into this matchup?, and other varius one sided match ups).

One thing I have noticed from playing my dita crew vs others is that most people don't understand that outside of dita and fransisco none of my crew can beat there way out of a paper bag. Alot of people complain about their inability to beat them.

But they don't take alot quick models 5-6" walk or companion style doll rat crews that can close the distance via multiple activation synergies, and I think their is only like two people i've ever played against that would actually sit just outside of 10" range consolidate their forces and then swarm into the 10" zone all in one turn.

[schristofersen]

It is really funny to watch play groups go through phases with masters they think are borken.

I still think Hamelin is way up there in the power but have found others (i'm looking at you LCB) can be just as bonkers and fun to play with.

Mostly what I have found is that if you concentrate on the game in terms of schemes and such to get VP you stop worrying about how one crew or another can beat face in a brawl.

Heck I am at the point that I think Kirae has just as many shenanigans she can use.

I know i've said so earlier in the thread but it is the variity of "OMFG thats crazy!" piecies that makes it fun for me. Tip the scales by adding more weight to the other sides not by lightening the pieces till you have stupified me into leaving the game due to it being boring.

[Odin1981]

What you say schristoferson only goes so far about focusing on schemes/strats. For me personally strats schemes are a second thought (ie done turn 4 or later).

And specifically the speed crews assuming that they are piloted by people versed in their execution and combos really would love you for trying to do just that. Outside of having two schemes that combo well with another (example being grudge, kill protege).

I personally play to set up first two turns on positioning to squash one of my opponents schemes and interact with the opponents stratgey to at most get 1/2 points from it(2). As well as kill priority (the 3 things I do not want to deal with all game).

If you per say just go for schemes unless you pick two that mesh well and are easy to get will find yourself at best with 5 points at the end of the game (2 for the scheme you complete, 1 from the scheme you announce but don't get and 2 possibly 0 from your strat) that would leave the speed crew with possibly needing just 4 points from their strat and announcing just 2 schemes not even needing to complete them to win 6-5.

For most of the speed crews with careful selecting of schemes (ensuring two schemes get points for announcing and not having one that gives you a - point for not completing) this isn't hard to do at all (unless whatever higher power you believe in hates you and you flip supply wagon twice)

[Mike3838]

Odin,

From what you've written above I think you may have misunderstood the announcing of schemes.

You don't get 1VP just for announcing it. You make it sound like you've been banking 2VP for announcing two schemes that you then fail to complete?

In actuality, you get PLUS 1 VP for announcing the scheme, that is, 2 for announcing and completing, and still zero for announcing and failing.

The additional VP is for managing to complete the scheme with the added complication of your opponent knowing you're gunning for it. It isn't a free point.

Mike

[Drake]

:ditto: Totally the case, +1 for making it harder for yourself and still completing it. 0 VP for failing it. So it is still all to play for. Bear in mind when you announce, you have to announce all of the scheme, e.g. who your grudge is on, not just the fact you are taking Grudge.

This makes some schems really difficult if announced, like Frame for Murder, but does make the game more interesting.

e.g. frame for murder on your most expensive model....you may end up getting no VP for it, but you can shove your best model in your masters face, and if he actually took kill protege, well that puts you on even score whether your model dies or not...leaves just 1 scheme each and strategy to try and win on....

Food for thought.

Back on topic, as an Arcanist player, not much to deal with Hamelin, although have had some more ideas...December Acolyte for Devour on rats to stop them being summoned when killed....?

[Q'iq'el]

What you say schristoferson only goes so far about focusing on schemes/strats. For me personally strats schemes are a second thought (ie done turn 4 or later).

Actually it goes much deeper than that. The shallowness of the master and minions analysis on the inerwebz is the reason why Marcus has such a bad rep or why people have been thinking Pandora is impossible to beat from the day one.

Most of these analyses are completely out of context. There's no context of Strategies, there's no taking random factors into the consideration (the Hand is either very lucky or very average, depending on the author), but most of all there is no thinking about Encounters as a whole and about locations as vital factor for Malifaux balance.

In fact, many clubs simply skip locations they think to be boring (Bog anyone? Forested terrain?) and tournaments usually do not use locations there are no tables or terrain for (as far as I can tell, hopefully there are more thorough organizers around).

How many tournaments use the rules for fighting inside big structures already? How are these big blobs of Rats performing in narrow corridors, huh?

This is a two-sided coin. On one side, masters typically have Strategies and Locations they are bad at, which gives other masters a chance to show up (especially if you can chose your master for the game). On the other side, once you have to plan for all kind of locations, terrain and Strategies, you stop packing up your crew with the killers and you start to take utility. That inevitably tones down many of the most deadly crews.

So before we start shaking the cuddle stick, try to set up some really challenging terrain.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[magicpockets]

^^^ That is one of the best posts on this topic I've seen. Kudos Q'iq'el