poulpox Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Hello there! Just wanted confirmation we're playing this right: mental anguish counts as a failed morale duel, this does count as a Wp duel also, doesn't it? And therefore should cause one more wound to the target? Thanks for helping! T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Hello there! Just wanted confirmation we're playing this right: mental anguish counts as a failed morale duel, this does count as a Wp duel also, doesn't it? And therefore should cause one more wound to the target? Thanks for helping! T. If you are asking what I think you're asking, no, Pandora's trigger doesn't make you take 2 wounds (are you saying 1 from the cast and 1 from the lost moral duel?). I believe the new wording makes the original resist count as losing a moral duel. It isn't a whole new duel loss. The new wording says "and it counts as losing a moral duel". I assumed the "it" is the original failed resist that you lost, not a whole new duel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Yes I was meaning 1 Wd for losing the first duel, plus 1 Wd for receiving mental anguish. I see your perspective, this creates more :$ in my head! You see it at the model in effect only loses one duel, where as I had understood mental anguish makes the target automatically lose a second duel, hence take another Wd but I wondered whether the morale duel counts for emotional trauma, i.e: is morale duel = Wp duel. On another note since mental anguish counts as a morale duel, aren't immune models (constructs, undead, etc...) immune to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirigakurenoHaku Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 To my understanding, a morale duel is one that, if lost, will result in a model falling back, as in Terrifying. A WP»WP duel is not necessarily a morale duel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 To my understanding, a morale duel is one that, if lost, will result in a model falling back, as in Terrifying. A WP»WP duel is not necessarily a morale duel. and to my understanding the opposite is also true a moral duel is not automatically a Wp duel. though almost all the ones in the game are at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Which Morale Duels are there that aren't Wp duels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Which Morale Duels are there that aren't Wp duels? There aren't any as far as I know, except possibly the silly counts as trigger, which might be separate from the original duel. However there is nothing to say that there won't be any in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 All right then so does "count as morale duel" refer to the originally failed Wp resistance duel, or does it refer to a second duel, unflipped-for and automatically failed (causing one more Wd). Furthermore, would a construct, undead, nightmare, etc be immune to it since it is a morale duel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ropetus Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 All right then so does "count as morale duel" refer to the originally failed Wp resistance duel, or does it refer to a second duel, unflipped-for and automatically failed (causing one more Wd). Furthermore, would a construct, undead, nightmare, etc be immune to it since it is a morale duel? It refers to the original Duel, which now also counts as a Morale Duel. There is no such thing as a second Duel which fails without a flip. Undead, Constructs, Nightmares, Spirits and other things are immune due to their characteristics. However, Pandora's "The Box Opens" talent will remove this immunity so they will be affected. -Ropetus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) All right then so does "count as morale duel" refer to the originally failed Wp resistance duel, or does it refer to a second duel, unflipped-for and automatically failed (causing one more Wd). Furthermore, would a construct, undead, nightmare, etc be immune to it since it is a morale duel? Oh boy this has gone in some strange directions.. There is only one duel Poulpox and that is the resist duel. Mental Anguish does NOT turn the resist duel into a Moral Duel in any fashion, it is still 100% just a Resist Duel. If the defender fails, they Fall Back and count as having just lost a Moral Duel. This does NOT make the Resist Duel a Moral Duel but rather will invoke any game mechanics which happen when you fail a Moral Duel. But since there was still only 1 duel made (which was a Wp duel), Mental Anguish is only going to do 1 Wd for that 1 duel. You just count as having failed a Moral Duel for other effects that may care about that. Like say the Governor's Proxy. So I hope that makes this nice and clear. There is only 1 Duel here and it is a Resist Duel/Wp Duel and nothing else.The model Falls Back due to the Trigger's "immediatly Fallback" clause and not due to the "count as losing a Moral Duel" part.The model then count as having failed a Moral Duel for effects which trigger off of this like the Governor's Proxy's Watchful Eye. On your second part of the question.. Even if Pandora did not have Open the Box and the construct didn't have Immune to Influence, they would be forced to fall back even if immune to Moral Duels. The reason is, Constructs Undead etc are just immune to the Moral Duel and not the effects that come after it like Falling Back. You would have to SPECIFICALLY be immune to Falling Back in order to avoid this trigger. Constructs and Undead would though be Immune to the "counts as losing a Moral Duel" part IMHO because they are immune to that type of duel to begin with. But again, that is 100% a moot point as The Box Open strips away all their Immunity to Moral Duels and honestly, I would not even begin to want to argue what would happen if she did not have The Box Opens. Leave that till another time, or ask Sketch or Kel directly for a ruling on that. Edited January 12, 2011 by karn987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Awesome, thanks for the conclusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Awesome, thanks for the conclusion If you still are confused or leery about it man, just ask and we will be happy to keep going deeper into this. Pandora can be a bit mind bending =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ropetus Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Even if Pandora did not have Open the Box and the construct didn't have Immune to Influence, they would be forced to fall back even if immune to Moral Duels. The reason is, Constructs Undead etc are just immune to the Moral Duel and not the effects that come after it like Falling Back. You would have to SPECIFICALLY be immune to Falling Back in order to avoid this trigger. Constructs and Undead would though be Immune to the "counts as losing a Moral Duel" part IMHO because they are immune to that type of duel to begin with. But again, that is 100% a moot point as The Box Open strips away all their Immunity to Moral Duels and honestly, I would not even begin to want to argue what would happen if she did not have The Box Opens. Leave that till another time, or ask Sketch or Kel directly for a ruling on that. Hmmm, I have always understood that falling back is always the cause of a failed Morale Duel (at least after the latest Errata this has been added to all sources of fall back that didn't mention it earlier). Therefore "Morale Immune" would also make you "Fall Back Immune" (which absolutely makes sense, and I don't think there is anything in the game with immunity to fall back specifically). I could be wrong so I'll have to check the Rulebook when I get home. Or just wait for Sketch to give us a ruling. After all, Pandora could get stripped of her Box by an opposing Zoraida Hexing her or opposing Marcus casting Alpha on allied Zoraida in a Brawl to Hex her. Hence the question is relevant . And there are similarly worded abilities like Cerberus Roar which still should not make Morale immune models to run as far as I know. -Ropetus Edited January 12, 2011 by Ropetus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Hmmm, I have always understood that falling back is always the cause of a failed Morale Duel (at least after the latest Errata this has been added to all sources of fall back that didn't mention it earlier). Therefore "Morale Immune" would also make you "Fall Back Immune" (which absolutely makes sense, and I don't think there is anything in the game with immunity to fall back specifically). I could be wrong so I'll have to check the Rulebook when I get home. Or just wait for Sketch to give us a ruling. After all, Pandora could get stripped of her Box by an opposing Zoraida Hexing her or opposing Marcus casting Alpha on allied Zoraida in a Brawl to Hex her. Hence the question is relevant . And there are similarly worded abilities like Cerberus Roar which still should not make Morale immune models to run as far as I know. -Ropetus Nope. Morale Immune is not Fall Back Immune unless a very core concept of the game has changed without me knowing. It was ruled a while ago by Sketch that these are indeed different things and even the core rules makes a point of differentiating them. Basically Fall Back is it's own set of rules. Morale Duels can cause a model to Fall Back but so can other things. Pandora's Trigger has always been a big one of these and probably the best example of it. But as for right now, Immune to Morale Duels does NOT give immunity to Fall Back. It simply grants immunity to the most likely source of Fall Back which is a Morale Duel but not Fall Back it's self. Btw looking at the Errata... I don't see what your saying it added. They added a part about when a model is considered to be conducting a Moral duel: Morale (p.78) Replace first paragraph with: “A model in Malifaux is conducting a Morale Duel when: • It is confronted by a Terrifying opponent. • It is affected by a spell or talent requiring a Morale Duel.”But this has no impact on this trigger as the trigger specifically leaves out turning the Resist Duel into a Moral duel. Mainly to get around this as it has always been. As for the "counts as losing a Morale Duel" part and stripping The Box Opens.... Being Undead and Construct etc only seem to make you Immune to the Duel it's self. To me, this does not seem to protect you from something bypassing the duel and forcing you to count as having failed one since Immune models just don't take the duel and auto pass from my understanding. Thats how I read the RAW but yeah, that's something Sketch needs to rule on. Make a post in the Rules Forum if you want. Edited January 12, 2011 by karn987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What is this "Moral Duel" of which you speak? Are the models having Moral Dilemmas or something? Were they thinking of becoming vegetarian or vegan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Gah! Not again! *fixes posts* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 What is this "Moral Duel" of which you speak? Are the models having Moral Dilemmas or something? Were they thinking of becoming vegetarian or vegan? Hi Sketch, is your not adding any further comment (beside moralE) meaning the correct answers/interpretations have been given by Ropetus and Karn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi Sketch, is your not adding any further comment (beside moralE) meaning the correct answers/interpretations have been given by Ropetus and Karn? Hi poulpox, is this the Rules Discussion forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi poulpox, is this the Rules Discussion forum? Hmm, I don't know how moral that would be to walk away and not mention anything. My guess from what Kal said Morale is getting a huge overhaul in the new book, so it's probably not worth getting your knickers in a twist about. However the moral of the story is, if you want a definitive answer about morale duels put it in the Rules section of the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi poulpox, is this the Rules Discussion forum? And here is the proof: Constructs such as Teddy are immune to influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 And here is the proof: Constructs such as Teddy are immune to influence. You can remove this immunity with either "The Box Opens" or some cookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi poulpox, is this the Rules Discussion forum? Wow... >.> Guess you must be cracking down on not answering in faction forums any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Wow... >.> Guess you must be cracking down on not answering in faction forums any more. I can't be everywhere at once. Also, why have the Rules Discussion section of the forum if you don't use it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 I can't be everywhere at once. Also, why have the Rules Discussion section of the forum if you don't use it? So the solution.... is to clone you instead of Eric? =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Everyone should read https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17795 as that clears up all of my confusions on the new wording. Edited January 13, 2011 by Natty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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