New Errata

[Joza]

Sezar: Finally someone, who feels the same as me - that the main reason why we're unsatisfied is not the fact, that the (log time ago promised) errata are not yet finished. But the fact, that Wyrd is not communicating, nor willing to comunicate (don't tell me they do not read the forums, nor have 10 minutes of spare time to respond - but yes, I'd be ashamed too...).

So Big +1 on that matter - Wyrd, please, you do not need to push the errata out, if you don't feel it's not ready according to your opinion. But please communicate with us, your fans and customers!

[Csonti]

Sezar: Finally someone, who feels the same as me - that the main reason why we're unsatisfied is not the fact, that the (log time ago promised) errata are not yet finished. But the fact, that Wyrd is not communicating, nor willing to comunicate (don't tell me they do not read the forums, nor have 10 minutes of spare time to respond - but yes, I'd be ashamed too...).

So Big +1 on that matter - Wyrd, please, you do not need to push the errata out, if you don't feel it's not ready according to your opinion. But please communicate with us, your fans and customers!

You and Sezar are not the only one.

WS mentioned some time ago (maybe 1,5 month or so) that the errata is in the proofing stage. That's the latest info we got. And as you can see many of us would sleep better if some official were kind enough and share with us a few words about the real stage of the process and the estimated arrival time.

Actually I was very annoyed to see that they answered immediately to a guy who accused them with laziness. That rude and unfair comment deserved the time and attention of the Wyrd staff but the others with their polite questions were left on their own. Isn't it... hmm... weird?

[Poko]

Do you play online games that update their content?

No, alcoholic beverages on friday night work better and leave less damage to the brain if I fancy a bit of mindless stupor. D&D and MtG are also rather larger than Wyrd, by an order of magnitude I'd imagine.

[Joza]

Csonti: My apologies, sir. It's just that most of us are appealing to the lack of the product, rather than the lack of information.

The only thing, which really makes me sad is, that we actually do not have _any_ possibility to change the current state - we can cry, swear, and even beg, but it won't change anything.

P.S. I know this is really defetaist, but I'm on the edge of snarkines and letargy... And even though I really like Malifaux, it makes me sad, that I sobered up from the euphoria of finaly finding a game from company, which tends to be active on their forums and is responsive and cares about their customer as much as it cares about profit (and I had this feeling for almost a year I'm playing)...

Hopefully Wyrd will learn from this fiasco, and will change it's policies on sharing information.

So I probably won't comment further on this matter, so I do not cross the thin line of politeness and good manners even more than I did already.

[nilus]

No, alcoholic beverages on friday night work better and leave less damage to the brain if I fancy a bit of mindless stupor. D&D and MtG are also rather larger than Wyrd, by an order of magnitude I'd imagine.

Also D&D is a role playing. Which means that although an errata or FAQ can be handy it does not need to be as extensive as a competive minature game.

[Talos]

I know we all want a errata but is it really as bad as some of you make out. Some say they are going to quit Malifaux till there is one or all together.

I have been playing Malifaux for about 4 months now and played at one tournament and so far I have yet to come across any problems that I need a errata to fix.

Maybe its the crews we are playing or the people I am playing but right now I do not find the game unplayable or even think It needs a new errata. I just have not come across any problems.

[The Green Git]

I'm playing with the current Errata and FAQ and it's not so much of an issue. No game situations have arisen that we couldn't figure out by reading what's available. When the odd issue we can't figure out does pop up in game we typically flip for the outcome and then research later.

Coming from a world where I deal with commercial software all the time my support expectations are a bit different. When you buy a piece of software you are also expected to purchase maintenance and support that renews annually. You pay for bug fixes and enhancements. You buy software as is and while the publisher fixes stuff to retain customers they are not obligated to do so. Your purchase of maintenance and support brings the bug fixes and enhancements to the table in a legal agreement.

Now I'm not saying that Wyrd should charge for Errata and FAQs, but what I am pointing out is that they are doing this for free. And might I also point out that they are doing a hell of a good job and by comparison are worlds better than another popular big name UK based miniatures company who I shall not name.

[tadaka]

Git being better then that Uk game company does not make any one good

Best of the worst can still suck. Note in no way am i saying wyrd sucks.

[The Green Git]

Git being better then that Uk game company does not make any one good

No, but it does make them better, and a far sight better at that. Couple better support with better rules and (arguably) better models, and you have a clear contrast.

One could contend that if all you ever knew was an above average level of support, when that level was perceived to slip a little you might become disenchanted when you are still getting damn good service compared to the rest of the marketplace.

Best of the worst can still suck. Note in no way am i saying wyrd sucks.

Not sure exactly *what* you are trying to say here...

With the ancient, bloated Workshop that produces Games on one end of the spectrum for support (The sucky end) and any other company you name at the other, Wyrd still comes out closer to the "good" end than the "sucky" end.

Unless your expectations are unrealistic. If you are looking for perfection you're never going to find it, at least not in this life.

[magicpockets]

Wow, anyone would think we're waiting on the cure for cancer and the answer to perpetual world peace. Guys, it's little tin models.... :spank:

[tadaka]

Git I think you were taking what i was saying way to serious. Just saying just because others suck it does not make some one good.

On a more serious note I don't think any one is asking for perfection. I have said it before and I will say it again all most every single rules page of first book has errata that needs work period. Second book will end up the same mark my words on this.

Wyrd is a new company and is having a good start but fans are starting to notice things they can work on. There is nothing wrong with fans saying hey Wyrd you need to work on this stuff.

[The Green Git]

Meh. I just wanted to offer another opinion... that Wyrd seems to be doing the best they can and that my experience has been pretty good.

I'm done here.

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

I'm playing with the current Errata and FAQ and it's not so much of an issue. No game situations have arisen that we couldn't figure out by reading what's available. When the odd issue we can't figure out does pop up in game we typically flip for the outcome and then research later.

Coming from a world where I deal with commercial software all the time my support expectations are a bit different. When you buy a piece of software you are also expected to purchase maintenance and support that renews annually. You pay for bug fixes and enhancements. You buy software as is and while the publisher fixes stuff to retain customers they are not obligated to do so. Your purchase of maintenance and support brings the bug fixes and enhancements to the table in a legal agreement.

Now I'm not saying that Wyrd should charge for Errata and FAQs, but what I am pointing out is that they are doing this for free. And might I also point out that they are doing a hell of a good job and by comparison are worlds better than another popular big name UK based miniatures company who I shall not name.

The problem here is that this comparisson is apples to oranges. One could quote a similar yet different type of business and get opposite results like buying a car. If the company finds that a part is faulty (i.e. a bad rule), they fix the part (update the rule) and issue a recall notice for said part (erratta/FAQ) for free. Video game companies do the same via patches that are free.

Either way, in the miniature game market, erratta and FAQ's are expected when things are not working as intended. But I think the most unrest comes from the horrible communication in relation to the V2 cards. Things have already been updated & released yet no one really knows what and to what scale unless you just happen to come across the cards during a purchase or via someone who has. And it's been a good while since this was brought up last and still there is nothing out about it.

[PlasticBoy]

Frankly I feel that miniature gamers tend to want far more than is necessary to play the game. If you look through the Errata 90% of it is extreme nit-picking, primarily on grammar. Which is commendable to have proper grammar but at the same time makes a copy-heavy rules set even more cumbersome. All of those types of changes can be made with additional print runs.

Miniature gamers for reasons beyond me used to be able to fill in the gaps if something seemed off, as well as just plain old house rule anything they didn't agree with / like / felt was awkward. The idea of doing this anymore is dieing, and I don't know why.

[JayBarlekamp]

Miniature gamers for reasons beyond me used to be able to fill in the gaps if something seemed off, as well as just plain old house rule anything they didn't agree with / like / felt was awkward. The idea of doing this anymore is dieing, and I don't know why.

I think it has to do with the video game culture, and the idea that you have to "beat" the game. so you have those D-bags that will try to find every little loophole and over-powered combo to make sure they "beat" the game/opponent.

Most resonable people would say Molly Squidgepidge is a unique character, yet some people will still summon her with herself because the book doesn't say she is unique.

It all boils down to this: is your gaming group a bunch of reasonable guys/girls out to have fun? or are they all trying to "beat" the game? If your answer is the former, then the errata/V2 card issue is annoying but not game-breaking. If however, your group is the latter, then the card/errata issue is a major problem.

[The Green Git]

One could quote a similar yet different type of business and get opposite results like buying a car. If the company finds that a part is faulty (i.e. a bad rule), they fix the part (update the rule) and issue a recall notice for said part (erratta/FAQ) for free.

One could quote that example but I'm afraid that comparing a miniatures game (pure leisure) to automobiles (mechanical transport) is the incorrect comparison.

When miniatures games fail people don't die.

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

I was merely pointing out that one can find a comparisson to get whatever viewpoint they want but the end result is apples to oranges. Only real comparisson of value is the game compared to other games and companies. Other companies are putting out FAQs/Errattas for free and usually in a timely manner. Most importantly, they don't sell new stats for released miniatures without a blanket communication of some sort that is made easily accessible to the public.

[Amarel]

Wow, long thread. Not sure that anyone is really listening to anyone else anymore, but just in case they are...

I've been a professional games designer for over sixteen years now, and I can tell you that while it might feel like time is crawling along with no update out here, inside the dev house that time is flying past. It takes a very, very long time to get this sort of thing right: checking the issues; checking the interactions; big meetings to sort out the large issues; smaller meetings to sort out the small issues; big meetings to discuss the small meetings; changes being made; changes being checked, rechecked and checked again; meetings re-checking new interactions... (aah, you get the idea ).

I should imagine Wyrd are desperate to get out V2 (it's how they make their living, after all, they don't want their players getting narked and leaving the game) but they also want to make sure that they get it as right as possible so as they don't get a ton of complaints and need to make another big change in the near future.

Personally, I love the game. Sure it's got a number of odd problems and little flaws right now, but it's also incredibly good fun and that makes it much, much better than a dull game which is issue-free (if such a thing as issue-free exists in this environment ).

[Csonti]

One could quote that example but I'm afraid that comparing a miniatures game (pure leisure) to automobiles (mechanical transport) is the incorrect comparison.

When miniatures games fail people don't die.

Yeah, so we are not entitled to ask some consistency for our money?

What about a less lethal comparison? Say you go to a restaurant and order a pizza named Leveticus (that comes with mushroom). But the waiter serves you a pizza with oninon. You don't like onion that much and was really expected to eat mushrooms (hey, that was written below Leveticus in the official menu you received). But as it is not a live or die situation, you keep silent and eat what you got without a word?

As others stated, the release of v2 cards without ANY official announcement was a weak move business-wise. Not replying for months now to the many costumer questions about this is just plain inexplicable.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I was merely pointing out that one can find a comparisson to get whatever viewpoint they want but the end result is apples to oranges. Only real comparisson of value is the game compared to other games and companies. Other companies are putting out FAQs/Errattas for free and usually in a timely manner. Most importantly, they don't sell new stats for released miniatures without a blanket communication of some sort that is made easily accessible to the public.

One cannot simply snap their fingers to make everything better for everyone all at once.

To assume that is indeed a fallacy.

The V2 Cards have started to hit the shelves yes, as the originals on the majority were all out of stock. Some of the product still had the original cards packed within them and repackaging the stock was not a feasible task.

The V2 Cards will be made available to the public shortly and in an amicable fashion.

Patience is indeed a virtue as well as understanding all ramifications of performing such a service. I'm speaking of the trade in program, the fallout from retailers/distributors when we do go through with such a plan.

What may seem to be "un-fair" and "un-professional" to you is hardly a "fair" and "professional statement that you could make.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

As others stated, the release of v2 cards without ANY official announcement was a weak move business-wise. Not replying for months now to the many costumer questions about this is just plain inexplicable.

There were plenty of announcements made. Perhaps you should double check?

[Lord Shaper]

Ok we know they are working on the errata and they are trying to get it all complete for us so why the constant nagging saying "where is it, where is it..." When they have it to a degree that they think it will benefit the game as a whole and all of the players.

Yes it would be nice to have a date for it but if they didn't have it finished by that date or added an extra errata again then we'd be in the same situation again.

I'm sure it won't be too much longer for it to come out but if people are coming to see about the game and see a 10 page thread complaining about the new errata do you think people would play?

[PlasticBoy]

Yeah, so we are not entitled to ask some consistency for our money?

What about a less lethal comparison? Say you go to a restaurant and order a pizza named Leveticus (that comes with mushroom). But the waiter serves you a pizza with oninon. You don't like onion that much and was really expected to eat mushrooms (hey, that was written below Leveticus in the official menu you received). But as it is not a live or die situation, you keep silent and eat what you got without a word?

As others stated, the release of v2 cards without ANY official announcement was a weak move business-wise. Not replying for months now to the many costumer questions about this is just plain inexplicable.

I'm sorry but even this metaphor is poorly chosen. When you bought a mushroom Leveticus pizza you got exactly that, a mushroom Leveticus pizza. When some time later enough people complained about the mushrooms this restaurant decided to make it a mushroom/onion Leveticus and is in the process of changing their menus to show this. You actually aren't entitled to anything at all. You bought and ate your mushroom Leveticus months ago.

First of all, there isn't any need to use metaphors in this discussion. Its a matter of facts and time.

Fact 1: this is a game with literally thousands of rules.

Fact 2: some of these rules don't mix well

Fact 3: Wyrd is doing everything they deem necessary to change the rules to mix better

Fact 4: You complaining on a forum for a company to 'hurry it up' doesn't help

OK, that last one isn't a fact but its pretty spot on.

Of all miniature games I have tried I had a fleeting hope that Malifaux's heavy narrative style and influences would lead to less 'competitiveness' in the crowd gathering around. But apparently that need for immediate attention and absolute rule clarifications for even the most minute detail is bread into miniature gamers now.

I'll finish with a simple statement that I feel sums up what I'm trying to get at. 'You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.' So take your time and make the product you want to make not the one the crazies demand.

[Jonas Albrecht]

This is absurd.

A Leveticus would have anchovies, and possibly veal.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

This is absurd.

A Leveticus would have anchovies, and possibly veal.

:withstupi