Question on Maturing Terror Tots Turn 1.

[vineuk]

Basically after readying a few post about starting off with Terror Tots and getting them to Young or Mature in turn one. I sat down and did some reading and came up with this tatic. I've only played Neverborn a few weeks, So I just wanted to run it past people to make sure I got it right and havn't missunderstood anything. Turn one goes like this :

Warband = 35 points

Lilith +4

Cherub -2

BB Shaman -6

Nekima -13

3 x Terror Tots -9

2 x D Merc’s -4

Total 34 points. Leaving Lilith with 5 shards.

Turn 1

1) Activate Nekima.

a) Cast 0 Nephilim Heart for CA + Mask

Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood counter.

2) Activate BB Shaman

a) Cast 0 Blood Offering. Take 4 wounds and receive 1 Blood Counter.

Using Blood Counter cast 1 action Inject Blood on Nekima and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from Trigger.

c) Using Blood Counter cast 1 action Inject Blood on Nekima and heal for 2 and gain Blood Counter from Trigger.

3) Activate Lilith

a) Kill a Merc Using 1st action

Shaman & Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

c) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal the shaman

d) Use 0 to use Brain Blood and get 1 Blood Counter.

e) Kill a Merc Using 2nd action

f) Shaman & Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

g) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal the shaman

h) Use last action as required.

4) Activate Cherub

a) Use 2 actions as required.

By now I have 7 Blood Counters within 6in of your 3 Terror Tot’s. I can no Cast Grow and Mature adding Nekima Nurture Nephilim ability. I should end up with 2 Mature and a Young at the end as long as the cards work out.

I've chosen to use only 3 Terror Tots as I only have 3.

Feed back would be great to make sure I've got it right.

[Wodschow]

In the scenario described you'd only get 5 Blood Counters.

Either Nekima OR the Black Blood Shaman gets a Blood Counter from Blood Sense when a 30mm model is killed within range of both of them.

Reference.

You could however kill one of the mercenaries with a Tot instead and get a sixth counter.

[vineuk]

Thanks for that referance m8. I will have to live with the 5 and 1 from a TT killing a merc. Saying that Killing a merc with a TT is easyer said than done lol.

Edited October 11, 2010 by vineuk

[Wodschow]

Actually you could do something else.. If you activate the Black Blood Shaman as the last one after both Mercenaries have been killed you could use their corpses as blood counters and then via the trigger make them into real blood counters.

[vineuk]

Thanks thats really helpfull. As long as the Terror Tot kills the Merc on his first activation. He will have 1 activation left to hopfully grow. If al lgoes well should have 2 Mature and 1 young by round 2 or worse case just 2 Mature.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I hate to point this out but the Desperate Merc costs 3 ss when hired by Lilith, not the 2 ss you listed.

It is hard to justify killing your own models when it costs so many soul stones to do it.

[Borthcollective]

Desperate Mercs do not cost extra taken out of faction. It's one of their abilities called comes cheap.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Desperate Mercs do not cost extra taken out of faction. It's one of their abilities called comes cheap.

???

Missed that completely. Good to know.

[Monkeyclops]

a) Kill a Merc Using 1st action

Shaman & Nekima gain 1 Blood Counter from Blood Sence

c) Use the Mercs ability A Last Noble Deed to heal the shaman

d) Use 0 to use Brain Blood and get 1 Blood Counter.

Unless there was a change to Blood Sense I am not aware of, you cannot use Blood Sense and Drain Blood on the same kill.

[vineuk]

Yes you can m8 because the Drain blood is an action and Blood Sense is a trigger. I can't active Shaman & Nekima blood sence together because that would be 2 triggers. But because an action and trigger are different it's allowed.

If you goto the link above from Wodschow it explains it.

[Monkeyclops]

Yes you can m8 because the Drain blood is an action and Blood Sense is a trigger. I can't active Shaman & Nekima blood sence together because that would be 2 triggers. But because an action and trigger are different it's allowed.

If you goto the link above from Wodschow it explains it.

Wow! Thanks!

Now I really can't wait for the Shaman/Nekima as you can get 3 Counters from a 40mm model

[i_was_like_you]

Good crew overall, but I'd tweak the placement a bit to save a few AP and switch totems.

I'd go with Primordial Magic instead of Malifaux Cherub to increase our control hand by 1 through Arcane Resevoir. It'll really sync up with Lilith's Rush of Magic to get us better cards. It also works quite well with Whirling Death.

Speaking of which, I'd park Lilith between the Desperate Mercenaries to use (2) Whirling Death to make strikes against each of them, which may in turn each trigger Bloody Fate.

Since Lilith has (+1) Fast and we only used (2) AP through Whirling Death, we can still use (1) Blood from Stone to gain any extra blood counters that we might be running short on from our previous models' activations.

I'm still puzzling it over, but I think I'd rather use Lilith's (0) Brood Mother to make the Black Blood Shaman her Companion so that it can activate immediately after she has slain the Desperate Mercenaries so that it can make use of the corpse counters as blood counters to power Inject Blood, instead of using the Shaman beforehand.

That puts us at:

1 blood counter from Nekima's Blood Offering of which damage the Mercs' Noble Deeds should have healed.

2 blood counters from Lilith's Whirling Death being each absorbed separately by Nekima and Black Blood Shaman's Blood Sense, as well as

2 corpse counters for the Shaman to turn to blood counters through two uses of Inject Blood triggering Bloody Mess which will heal the 4 Wd he will have inflicted upon himself through Blood Offering that he would use prior to using Inject Blood, which will give us

1 more blood counter, putting us at 6 blood.

Additionally we could use Lilith's Blood from Stone for

2 more blood counters, should we need them.

If I've missed anything or overlooked something that errata may have altered, feel free to let me know.

[Islington]

There is no reason to ever use whirling death against 2 models. If you whirling death with 2 models in range then you get 2 attacks but it costs you 2 ap and a card to do it. Where as you can just spend 2 ap and make 2 attacks and save yourself the card.

[Ratty]

Yes you can m8 because the Drain blood is an action and Blood Sense is a trigger. I can't active Shaman & Nekima blood sence together because that would be 2 triggers. But because an action and trigger are different it's allowed.

If you goto the link above from Wodschow it explains it.

well if you were to be horribly pedantic it's not technically a trigger as a trigger is a specific keyword which refers to a effect that comes into play when you get the right suits during a duel.

It's a talent which is comes into effect as a reaction to a model dying. As it is not an Action the Rule of Equivalence comes into play, which states that you may not have more effects from talents that generate Blood counters than the size of the base (30mm: 1, 40mm: 2, 50mm: 3)

You may get an additional Blood Counter from Drain Blood as it is an Action and therefore not covered by the Rule of Equivalence

I know it's a bit complicated. Best thing to remember is don't count any thing you pay AP for (even 0 APs) when counting the number of effects for the Rule of Equivalence.

[Islington]

From the models listed you should be able to get 8 blood counters in one turn.

Each killed merc can generate 1 blood from blood sense, 1 blood from drain blood, and drops 1 corpse token which can be turned into blood via the shamans spell trigger. Add in the 2 blood from blood offering via nekima and the shaman and you get a total of 8 blood.

Unfortunately the order that you have to do this in means that you wont be able to heal the shaman. Nekima has to activate before the shaman so that she can add the mask to the cast for the shamans trigger. The two mercs have to be killed before the shaman activates so that he has corpses to turn into blood. When the mercs die they heal nekima since the shaman hasnt used blood offering yet. So when the shaman finaly activates he can use blood offering and inject blood on whatever to turn the corpses into blood, but he cant target himself with inject blood. Inject blood is a melee attack spell and you cant target yourself with a melee attack. So you cant heal your shaman back up if you blood offering with him unless you forgoe turning the corpse counters into blood because you have to use the mercs to heal him.

So you can have 7 blood and fully healthy models or 8 blood and a shaman with 4 wounds left all on turn one. Alternatively you can wait till the top of turn 2 to turn the two corpses into blood and get 9 blood and a healthy shaman.

The order of activation would be something like this:

1) Activate Nekima use blood offering and the +mask to casting values (1 blood)

2) Activate the Shaman use blood offering and inject blood with trigger to heal nekima and keep your bloods. (2 blood)

3) Lilith activates Kills a merc and uses drain blood. Blood sense from nekima or shaman generates a blood. Mercs death heals shaman. (4 blood, 1 corpse)

4) Activate a tot standing next to the remaining merc and grow. The now Young tot attacks twice and kills remaining merc easily then uses drain blood. Blood sense triggers and the mercs death finishes healing the shaman. (5 blood, 2 corpse, 1 young)

5) Tot activates grows then matures. (2 blood, 2 corpse, 1 young, 1 mature)

6)Last tot activates and grows. (1 blood, 2 corpse, 2 young, 1 mature)

7) end of turn

8)Nekima activates uses blood offering and adds +mask to casting. (2 blood, 2 corpse, 2 young, 1 mature)

9)Shaman activates uses corpses to cast inject blood twice with trigger healing nekima and turning two corpse counters into 2 bloods. (4 blood, 2 young, 1 mature)

10) Young activates and matures (2 blood, 1 young, 2 mature)

At this point we have the tots all up sized as much as possible and enough blood to mature the young once one of the matures dies. Of course this does eat up a good bit of your 2nd turn. So depending on the schemes this is not the way to go. This is however the optimal usage of the two mercs if you only consider blood generation tot growth and model health. When other considerations like grabbing a treasure come into play your probably better off trying to do as best you can in 1 turn. Afterall we do have 2 xtra blood at the end of this that we have no imediate use for.

[i_was_like_you]

There is no reason to ever use whirling death against 2 models. If you whirling death with 2 models in range then you get 2 attacks but it costs you 2 ap and a card to do it. Where as you can just spend 2 ap and make 2 attacks and save yourself the card.

I get to ditch one bad card and use 2 of Lilith's 3 AP to make two attacks, that both separately have a chance to trigger Bloody Fate, allowing me to draw back more cards. Also, with a high enough SS crew, I could have other models within the 2", such as more Terror Tots, to spill a lot more blood.

[Thunder_God]

Unless I missed something, people miss 1 AP on the Shaman, who must walk and pick up those Corpse Counters.

[i_was_like_you]

Depending on where you place your shaman in relation to the sacrificial mercs. If they're close enough, they can just use the counter that's sitting there, right? It works for Seamus and the other graverobbers.

[Thunder_God]

Nope.

Seamus and co say they can use a Corpse Counter within 6", the Shaman can only use a counter he's carrying. Thus, he must spend an AP moving; unless you want to Transposition him just for those counters after something else moves on top of them...

[Thunder_God]

Hm. Graverobbers can pick counters they touch, so if you begin with the mercs standing touching the Black Shaman, so the counter they drop also touches the shaman, would it work then? I don't see why not... but they have to be standing touching the shaman.

The FAQ says "By coming in contact with it", but what if you already began in contact with it? Heh.

[Wodschow]

I get to ditch one bad card and use 2 of Lilith's 3 AP to make two attacks, that both separately have a chance to trigger Bloody Fate, allowing me to draw back more cards. Also, with a high enough SS crew, I could have other models within the 2", such as more Terror Tots, to spill a lot more blood.

There's some faulty reasoning there..

No card is so bad that it's better not to have it - you could just aswell have made two normal strikes that would both have had a chance to trigger Bloody Fate.

There's never a reason to use Whirling Death if there's only 2 models in range.. Unless you by doing so circumvents certain defensive abilities or such.

[i_was_like_you]

From the models listed you should be able to get 8 blood counters in one turn.

Unfortunately the order that you have to do this in means that you wont be able to heal the shaman... So when the shaman finaly activates he can use blood offering and inject blood on whatever to turn the corpses into blood, but he cant target himself with inject blood. Inject blood is a melee attack spell and you cant target yourself with a melee attack. So you cant heal your shaman back up if you blood offering with him unless you forgoe turning the corpse counters into blood because you have to use the mercs to heal him.

Actually, a model can target itself or another friendly, non-master model, with a melee attack / melee spell.

Malifaux main book, p. 62, under Spellcasting:

"Attack spells follow the basic rules for that type of attack".

In this case, a melee attack. Now let's look at combat.

Main book, p. 54, under Strike Attack Sequence - Details

"1. Declare Target, then Check Range

A model must be within the attacker's LoS to be declared the target of an attack. Any model within the attacker's LoS can be targeted, including any friendly model other than your Crew's Master (they're expendable, but he's not, right?) or the attacking model itself. If there are no targets within the attacker's LoS, the Strike fails." [underlines mine]

The reason a spell like Inject Blood has a range of melee, not C, is so that it can affect itself or another model within melee range. It's not feasible that the Black Blood Shaman could Inject Blood from further than melee range, so that's the limit on it. Otherwise, it can heal itself, or any other model with Black Blood, or deal damage to any model without it.

On a side note, with Blood Magic, if you happen to have any non-Master Neverborn models on your crew, other than your sacrificial Desperate Mercenaries, you can use your Black Blood Shaman to give it Black Blood, then use Inject Blood to heal it.

[Wodschow]

Several things wrong there..

A model can not target itself with Strikes.

A model can target the Master of its Crew with Strikes - that part was errataed out.

A Black Blood Shaman cannot heal itself as Inject Blood is a spell with the melee icon on range and thus must follow the rules for melee strikes, and melee strikes cannot target the attacking model itself.

Edit: It's not apparent from the wording in the book and personally I think the rules are odd on this whole 'target yourself with attacks'-area, but it's been discussed alot and this is what the Marshals say.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Wodschow

[Thunder_God]

Actually, they do address it in the errata:

Declare Target, then Check Range (p.54)

Replace second sentence with

“Any model other than the attacker within the attacker’s LoS can be targeted.”

So this deals with both the removal of non-master, and anything but itself.

[i_was_like_you]

There's some faulty reasoning there..

No card is so bad that it's better not to have it - you could just aswell have made two normal strikes that would both have had a chance to trigger Bloody Fate.

There's never a reason to use Whirling Death if there's only 2 models in range.. Unless you by doing so circumvents certain defensive abilities or such.

Let's just chalk this one up to personal preferences / play style.

You say, No card is so bad that it's better not to have it. I say, I don't need any low cards in my hand that aren't of a suit I need for triggers, not when discarding one card and using 2 AP can net me much better cards, unless I'm battling a crew with heavy discard abilities. At that point, of course I'd hold onto my control cards, like gold, to prevent losing precious soul stones instead.

Besides, once they give us the new rules that allow for other non-Master, non-Henchmen models to upgrade to Henchman* status, I will be most likely running this crew with Nekima at its head, instead of Lilith.

[*See Ronin (p. 198 of the main book) for their Talent of Drifter which states This model cannot be upgraded to Henchman. It's one of the many rules, such as Avatar and Henchman that will be explained later (p. 20 of the main book). Yes, book two, Rising Powers, explains what a Henchman is, but it won't be until either the Rules Manual, due out this month, or a third or later book that they'll explain how a model can be upgraded to either Henchman or Avatar.

My guess at the moment is that both abilities will have to be inextricably linked. For example, I could upgrade Nekima to Henchman and use her as my crew's Master; however, I may still want to summon an Avatar of Lilith if things go sour. As they have already released a model for Pandora's Avatar form, I don't think I'm too far off track with this.]