Has anybody noticed?

[AvatarForm]

Your opponent can't win if they have nothing on the board. If you have an 8SS master they will not slow down and will run through the entire opposing army. That is the point I'm trying to make, of course there are some masters who don't need 8 SS like Nicodem Ramos etc., but generally 8SS will be a tall order to deal with.

Im interested in how you can expand and validate your theory. Your SS cache is limited, and each SS is a one-use option, while a cheap and effectively employed minion can be worth twice its weight in SS.

[karn987]

There's missions where you can have nothing left on the board and still win, but that's beside the point.

When I'm faced with a Master who's taken a full SS cache then I've got three options. First, I could apply minimal resources to erode away his soulstone cache until he has nothing left. Usually this involves Zoraida, a voodoo doll and Obey, which usually allows me to do some great damage to the master with one of their own minions.

Secondly, (and often after applying option 1) I could simply alpha-strike the Master by throwing most of my forces at him or in the case of the last game I played, Killjoy. Even with a pile of soulstones, there's not alot of Masters who can survive most of the other players crew focussing on them.

Third, I could simply ignore the master and kill their crew. Even Lilith isn't that dangerous when she's got no friends to help her out. Sure she can kill a few minions, but she can't be everywhere at once and with the most strategies/schemes, I don't need to touch her and I can still win.

None of these plans are fool-proof and there's no doubt that adding to the SS cache will make a Master harder to take down, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as more SS cache = better, even for the melee centric masters like Lilith. As with all things, it's a balance. Sometimes you'll want more minions for fulfilling the objectives, and other times you'll want to boost your master up.

+1 well put Rathnard.

[nilus]

On a side note, I've found that generally cheating and soulstoning defense is much better then flipping for damage prevention. On certain masters with low defense, this isn't viable but in others with average to high defense, it makes them alot harder to kill.

I agree with you on this one, even for Masters with low defense. Because not getting hit always effectively reduced damage to 0(also it prevent an trigger that goes off on a hit).

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Your opponent can't win if they have nothing on the board.

I have. :1:

A 8ss master is not impossible to take down by any means. I have done it lots with only 4 or 5ss in my cache. It is not easy sometimes but I think you are giving soul stones too much credit for winning.

Killing your opponents whole crew is powerful, trust me I know, but if it is going to cost you valuable VP I don't focus on killing everyone. VP's are my first and only objective, and if a 8ss master is sitting where I need to be, I wear him down in one or two turns by having him burn soul stones on defense or preventing damage. (Killed Perdita when my opponent stuck her out front. I hit her with the Slop Hauler and had her burn burning ss like mad. She still had some ss left when I killed her too.)

It is not hard. Just takes a little thinking.

Also how big is your gaming community and how many different opponents do you play. Mine is quite diverse and I have played against many different styles. I will tell you that if a new person came on here and thought this was the way to win they would be disappointed. What works for you does not work for everyone.

Trust me.

Hope to one day get to a national event and if I meet you I would love to play against you. Your play style is very different than mine (by what you post) and you talk very confident. I think it would be a very interesting game. Understand though, I love to use my opponent's over confidence to my advantage. :ridinghor

Edited September 26, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[ProdigalPunk]

IMHO it very strongly depends on the master. Not all masters are about being in the thick of things and killings stuff themselves. Nicodem is a great example of master who needs 3~4 SS for self defense and that's about it. Most of the time the killing will be done by the models he buffed to Cb8~9 and when he'll be casting Decay' date=' it more often will be for healing effect than damage (and you don't need to SS the cast for that).[/quote']

Am I the only one who uses SS for reanimator? It can be a little risky at times, but I feel that spell is so good I try cast it as much as possible. So if I need to throw out a 6 and take my chances then so be it. Sometimes I can not rely on a high crow, or have more pressing things to do with one.

[Q'iq'el]

Am I the only one who uses SS for reanimator? It can be a little risky at times, but I feel that spell is so good I try cast it as much as possible. So if I need to throw out a 6 and take my chances then so be it. Sometimes I can not rely on a high crow, or have more pressing things to do with one.

I've seen Nicodem easily win battles while casting Reanimator maybe 2~3 times at most.

Unless you go for a "summoner" list you spend most of your activations on Bolster (no flip), Decays (easy flip) and Rigor Mortis from time to time which is potentially one of his most amazing spells (Paralyzes non-living!). Such a list needs Reanimator merely to bring back killed models and it is not easy to kill Df6~8 (bolstered) Hard to Wound 1 monsters to begin with (harder than some masters, actually).

[Zombie_Pimp]

So we tend to have some people agreeing that frontline masters use more soulstones than support. but here is my question:

does anybody run the same master using 2 or more different strategies based on how many soulstones he/she has?

like for instance makeing one plan for Just the Catch of soulstones and another for 7-8 soulstones

i've noticed this a bit with seamus if i run him with 3-4 soulstones he's spell support using the extra bell he can afford to help with objectives strangly enogh i've found this works beter when my oponent is activly trying to kill seamus because then he can keep away beter

or I run him forward and use him as a front line master with 7-8 soulstones or pulling the seamus yoyo (seamus companions a belle walks 8" forward shoots 8" probably spends a soulstone on that then belle lures seamus back twice)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So we tend to have some people agreeing that frontline masters use more soulstones than support. but here is my question:

does anybody run the same master using 2 or more different strategies based on how many soulstones he/she has?

like for instance makeing one plan for Just the Catch of soulstones and another for 7-8 soulstones

i've noticed this a bit with seamus if i run him with 3-4 soulstones he's spell support using the extra bell he can afford to help with objectives strangly enogh i've found this works beter when my oponent is activly trying to kill seamus because then he can keep away beter

or I run him forward and use him as a front line master with 7-8 soulstones or pulling the seamus yoyo (seamus companions a belle walks 8" forward shoots 8" probably spends a soulstone on that then belle lures seamus back twice)

Exactly. You have hit it on the mark.

The number of Soul Stones you take will vary depending on your strategy. This is a great example of the number of Soul Stones one should take with Seamus.

There is no perfect number of Soul Stones one should take for every game. Taking 8ss is very powerful, but can lead to a dead master if you get too cocky. Not enough Soul Stones on a frontline master and you have a equally dead master. Use your head, not a set number.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Raintar]

I have. :1:

A 8ss master is not impossible to take down by any means. I have done it lots with only 4 or 5ss in my cache. It is not easy sometimes but I think you are giving soul stones too much credit for winning.

Killing your opponents whole crew is powerful, trust me I know, but if it is going to cost you valuable VP I don't focus on killing everyone. VP's are my first and only objective, and if a 8ss master is sitting where I need to be, I wear him down in one or two turns by having him burn soul stones on defense or preventing damage. (Killed Perdita when my opponent stuck her out front. I hit her with the Slop Hauler and had her burn burning ss like mad. She still had some ss left when I killed her too.)

It is not hard. Just takes a little thinking.

Also how big is your gaming community and how many different opponents do you play. Mine is quite diverse and I have played against many different styles. I will tell you that if a new person came on here and thought this was the way to win they would be disappointed. What works for you does not work for everyone.

Trust me.

Hope to one day get to a national event and if I meet you I would love to play against you. Your play style is very different than mine (by what you post) and you talk very confident. I think it would be a very interesting game. Understand though, I love to use my opponent's over confidence to my advantage. :ridinghor

Soulstones are how to win the game. If you hit your opponent's master with the slop hauler, let alone perdita with it, then your opponent made a terrible move. There's no thinking if you know what everything does. You just know what of your opponents to avoid and what to let through, the Slop Hauler on Perdita would be one to avoid. Don't count on your opponents mistakes to win, because there are people who know all the units and what they do and can exploit it. And if you think you will be able to just walk over and Slop Haul a master against a good player, you got another thing coming.

[AvatarForm]

Soulstones are how to win the game. If you hit your opponent's master with the slop hauler, let alone perdita with it, then your opponent made a terrible move. There's no thinking if you know what everything does. You just know what of your opponents to avoid and what to let through, the Slop Hauler on Perdita would be one to avoid. Don't count on your opponents mistakes to win, because there are people who know all the units and what they do and can exploit it. And if you think you will be able to just walk over and Slop Haul a master against a good player, you got another thing coming.

Your arguement does not strengthen the position of taking more SS in place of an additional minion or 2...

You simply outlined knowing the game system and the minions/masters... this is a given.

How did you arrive at your original point concerning the larger SS pool over additional minions?

[tenabrae]

Your opponent can't win if they have nothing on the board. If you have an 8SS master they will not slow down and will run through the entire opposing army. That is the point I'm trying to make, of course there are some masters who don't need 8 SS like Nicodem Ramos etc., but generally 8SS will be a tall order to deal with.

Unless your master is Lillith or Pandora with 8def, your 8ss aren't gonna stop Leveticus munching you and in many cases, even with those hi-def masters you're still gonna get eaten by blasts or kamikazes.

I take 8 with Lillith because she's super good, will be stuck into melee within 2 turns, and because her minions are so cost effective... I rarely take more than 4 with anyone else... if you pick your moment, you shouldn't need a ton of stones to do what you need to do... most crews only have 1 or 2 key models (one generally being the master) and you only really need to neutralise those.

It could also vary on the size of game you're playing, we tend to play 30-35ss.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Soulstones are how to win the game. If you hit your opponent's master with the slop hauler, let alone perdita with it, then your opponent made a terrible move. There's no thinking if you know what everything does. You just know what of your opponents to avoid and what to let through, the Slop Hauler on Perdita would be one to avoid. Don't count on your opponents mistakes to win, because there are people who know all the units and what they do and can exploit it. And if you think you will be able to just walk over and Slop Haul a master against a good player, you got another thing coming.

I can hit anyone with the Slop Hauler, read Ophelia's Fling in the Outcast forums on how to do it.If you see where I am wrong let's discuss it there.

I guess you misunderstand me. I do think a Master with 8 Soul Stones is nasty, but not as powerful as you are making it out to be. I have killed lots of Masters that started out with 8ss and I only had 4 to 5ss. Ended up killing their's while they were still sitting on some ss. And the only mistake they made was thinking that all those Soul Stones were going to save them.

You may see what I am saying one day, but for now I see you are not interested in hearing what I am saying.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[karn987]

Soulstones are how to win the game. If you hit your opponent's master with the slop hauler, let alone perdita with it, then your opponent made a terrible move. There's no thinking if you know what everything does. You just know what of your opponents to avoid and what to let through, the Slop Hauler on Perdita would be one to avoid. Don't count on your opponents mistakes to win, because there are people who know all the units and what they do and can exploit it. And if you think you will be able to just walk over and Slop Haul a master against a good player, you got another thing coming.

That's a massive generalization I think. Soulstones are how you win the game because they pay for your crew, but beyond that they don't form a true lynch pin I think. I've killed and had masters killed that have had 8ss in one turn. I've seen masters with 8ss go down in flames. 8ss does not in any way shape or form make you automatically win. The reason being, using SS is 100% subject to luck and can be easily overwhelmed. Nothing that relies on that much random chance can ever be a sure deal.

Most masters can not take on a whole enemy crew by themselves. Yes there are a few exceptions for certain specific match ups, but your master isn't going to win you the game alone. I think that's the point and the counter to your argument Raintar. A master can not be everywhere and do everything, they are not as overwhelming powerful as you make them sound. There crew is going to help them win the game and no matter how powerful your master is, he will not win without the help of his/her crew. Sure they are indeed very nasty, but they are not nastier then their crew as a whole.

Some other people said it well, even at 8ss a master is still easily vulnerable to blasts, suicide attacks, extremely powerful minions, etc. There are many times where their will not be attacks you can afford to let through. The game works on that principle that they are not invulnerable or game breaking even with 8ss. They are just heavily influential.

I think it comes down to preference. Some people prefer to play their master as the center of their army and the crew supports them. For some masters this is a great style for them and these are the types that love 8ss. But still other players like to play a synergistic crew that works together with the master. These are the masters and players that like fewer SS and better minions. But is one better then the other? Not at all. It's a matter of opinion and play style.

Edited September 27, 2010 by karn987

[Raintar]

Oh, ok so you're alpha striking and blasting off your own units, so your tactic actually viable. You'll be able to pull it off but it is by no means game winning by itself. You might kill one big unit, or two small units at the expense of your entire team going and the young lacroix dying. It is a long range combo but at the range you would be able to pull it off with their entire list would be on you and not activated yet, so the turn after that it could mean gg for you.

You won't understand that alpha striking may hurt more then help if you don't deal sufficent damage, because you put yourself in a terrible position by doing so. With your master activated and there's not activated and they would also be in striking distance which will lead to bad things. Probably a dead Slop Hauler and Rami at the very least.

I guess you misunderstand me. I do think a Master with 8 Soul Stones is nasty, but not as powerful as you are making it out to be. I have killed lots of Masters that started out with 8ss and I only had 4 to 5ss. Ended up killing their's while they were still sitting on some ss. And the only mistake they made was thinking that all those Soul Stones were going to save them.

Yes what YOU have killed, revalidating my point against taking advantage of opponents mistakes. If you play correctly, you will almost never die with SS in hand. Just because your perception of the problem makes you think it's a mistake doesn't mean it's actually a mistake. Do you understand that you get an additional card with soulstones and the purpose of why it is good? If I have an additional card tacked on my defense and you cannot add an additional card, who's going to have the advantage? With 8SS it ensures you keep the advantage and kill everything that you need to kill so that your opponent can't fight back.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Hey Raintar I would appreciate it that if you disagree with me state your point, but don't insult me as if I don't know the rules of the game. I know them.

Edited for friendly reasons.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[karn987]

If you play correctly, you will almost never die with SS in hand. Just because your perception of the problem makes you think it's a mistake doesn't mean it's actually a mistake. Do you understand that you get an additional card with soulstones and the purpose of why it is good? If I have an additional card tacked on my defense and you cannot add an additional card, who's going to have the advantage? With 8SS it ensures you keep the advantage and kill everything that you need to kill so that your opponent can't fight back.

Raintar your ignoring luck and the fact that you will not have hand full of face cards, have the luck to SS high, and have the stat advantage in most duels you go up against.

Yes, SS are an advantage against models that do not also have access to them. But they do not equate and automatic win like you state and elude to. It ensures nothing. Your deck is a finite resource as are your SS and like any resource, they can be depleted.

You constantly keep harping on 8ss makes you neigh invincible and gives you the power to beat anything. This is not true in mine and many other peoples eyes. You believe they are very strong, that's fine you are entitled to your opinion. But your trying to shove it down peoples throats without making any logical arguments.

I honestly would be very interested to read a logical and well constructed argument on your point and I whole heart-idly invite you to make one. I'm serious. I am more then willing to read what you have to say, but please put it in a respectful and clear manor. Give reasons and cite examples for why they are true. Please, take some time and formulate your post and put it up. I'll read a wall of text if that is what it takes to make your point clearly and back it up.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I honestly would be very interested to read a logical and well constructed argument on your point and I whole heart-idly invite you to make one. I'm serious. I am more then willing to read what you have to say, but please put it in a respectful and clear manor. Give reasons and cite examples for why they are true. Please, take some time and formulate your post and put it up. I'll read a wall of text if that is what it takes to make your point clearly and back it up.

I am constantly amazed by karn's well put word's.

I +1 on this. I would love to hear your theory too if it is a well constructed argument. But would also invite you to listen to the opposing arguments. You don't have to agree, but please try to listen.

[jmp_mydog]

It really depends on the master and whether or not you are running other models that can use soulstones.

When using Seamus I like to run 8, namely because I always bring a totem, and you need that second chance at getting something off sometimes.

The other reason to run a high count is to make that .50 count, getting one shot per turn means you need it to hit.

Other masters might not need a full pool, but my personal preference is run a full pool, unless the strategy dictates needing more models, or I'm facing a swarm style list (assuming I know what my opponent typically brings or what the faction I'm facing is known for.)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

It really depends on the master and whether or not you are running other models that can use soulstones.

When using Seamus I like to run 8, namely because I always bring a totem, and you need that second chance at getting something off sometimes.

The other reason to run a high count is to make that .50 count, getting one shot per turn means you need it to hit.

Other masters might not need a full pool, but my personal preference is run a full pool, unless the strategy dictates needing more models, or I'm facing a swarm style list (assuming I know what my opponent typically brings or what the faction I'm facing is known for.)

Good point about Seamus and fully agree here. He is a master that likes a full cache when his up in it.

[Raintar]

Raintar your ignoring luck and the fact that you will not have hand full of face cards, have the luck to SS high, and have the stat advantage in most duels you go up against.

First of all, this is under the assumption that you and your opponent will be at generally equal hand strengths which may or may not be the case but for all intents and purposes we will say that hand strengths will be generally equal because if one hand is alot stronger then the other the game will not come down to game skill, the game will come down to whoever has the obviously stacked hand. If you can't agree with this point here, I can't help you.

Yes, SS are an advantage against models that do not also have access to them. But they do not equate and automatic win like you state and elude to. It ensures nothing. Your deck is a finite resource as are your SS and like any resource, they can be depleted.

I was incorrect in coming off like I said that ALL masters need 8 SS in fact, alot don't, but I guess the argument I wanted to make is that those masters that don't need soulstones can't compete with the masters can benefit tremendously from the use of 8SS. These are masters that can chain triggers to kill any unit (or multiple units) in one action, or have other abilities that allow soulstones to shine.

The list of those masters looks something like this:

LCB (Onslaught/Flay)

Viktoria (Whilwind)

Lady Justice (Riposte/Onslaught)

Perdita (Faster n You/High Defense)

Rasputina (Overpower)

Pandora (Expose Fears)

C. Hoffman (Open Circuit)

Lilith (High Defense)

Basically, let's use Rasputina as an example. All you need is even a decent mask in your hand which the average # of masks in your hand is roughly 1.8 (7 card hand, 4 suits, distribute one to each suit until you get to 7). All you need (if you don't FLIP a mask) is to keep playing masks and soulstoning, and you will keep getting off your spells with your high Ca of 7. So Ca 7 + flipped card+ soulstone (average 7) will go more then likely go off on any non-master unit and if you had a mask, you will trigger overpower casting it again, rinse and repeat. Your total will not matter because you have an Essense of Power backing up anything you need to do so you will always be able to cheat the damage.

Here's where you are probably thinking, but yeah the average is 7 on the soulstone flip what if you get a low total then your cast will be thwarted? Possible outcome? Absoultely, but that's why we play out the game. You still will have a huge advantage because you want to make sure your first cast goes off so you will play high and with your Ca of 7 it's a tall order for most units to try to resist AND you can't even tie it, so you have to beat it still which will be difficult because if you don't it will overpower and cast again.

You constantly keep harping on 8ss makes you neigh invincible and gives you the power to beat anything. This is not true in mine and many other peoples eyes. You believe they are very strong, that's fine you are entitled to your opinion. But your trying to shove it down peoples throats without making any logical arguments.

I honestly would be very interested to read a logical and well constructed argument on your point and I whole heart-idly invite you to make one. I'm serious. I am more then willing to read what you have to say, but please put it in a respectful and clear manor. Give reasons and cite examples for why they are true. Please, take some time and formulate your post and put it up. I'll read a wall of text if that is what it takes to make your point clearly and back it up.

Yeah another example, is the Defensive prowess of Lilith. Using her excessive defense using one of your last activations to ensure that a low amount of models will be attacking her; you can rambo Lilith into their entire list without fear of her dying. With 8 defense which is hard to beat already, and the gratuitous use of soulstones you can pretty much make sure she's not going to get hurt by non-master units. The tiny units with low cb and low damage probably won't hit you and the big units with high Cb or Ca for spell casting won't hit Lilith because of the use of soulstones.

But at that point when she's up in your grill your Whirling Death will be devastating and then the rest of the army can swing in and pick up the pieces while your trying to focus down Lilith. You can give her a 1 action charge with the Black Blood Shaman to further enhance the strategy so you can Whirling Death and charge in one turn.

Masters on the other hand will hurt, reguardless of who it is because they too have soulstones. So deciding on which ones are ok and not ok to charge headfirst into will take some judgement, for example charge into Ramos, but don't charge into Lady Justice.

If I've covered enough bases so that you understand my argument lemme know. This should give you some further insight on how powerful soulstones really are if you keep an open mind.

[alemon]

For a 25 SS game, or a 35 SS game, what would your crew look like in your example?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I was incorrect in coming off like I said that ALL masters need 8 SS in fact, alot don't, but I guess the argument I wanted to make is that those masters that don't need soulstones can't compete with the masters can benefit tremendously from the use of 8SS. These are masters that can chain triggers to kill any unit (or multiple units) in one action, or have other abilities that allow soulstones to shine.

Had you said this earlier you would have saved yourself a lot of time. All your examples you gave are solid and we were never saying that these were not true. (though I do know some tricks to make even Lilith burn through her Soul Stones faster than you want her too.)

Yet there are times, like in my recent league, where it is better to fill out a specific crew to complete certain VP's. (I took a decent standing in my league so I'm not talking out of my rear) But most of the time I would advise players to take as many Soul Stones as possible.

That said I would also suggest not responding to others on the forum as if they are less experienced than you. We all have our own experience and there are a number of us who know how to play the game as well as you. We may differ, but that is part of life. You might also learn something you over looked too. You will find responses, especially mine, more productive.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Raintar]

Hah yeah I guess I just said it wrong or whatever. I usually play 30 SS, and Murphy trust me I know.