Running a Tournament...

[ricottma]

Is there any available guidance on running a tournament? I am doing one soon and would like to set up some ground rules (I'll post dates and times in that forum soooon)

Thanks.

[thaehl]

Look up the henchman program, see if you apply, and throw up an application. Henchmen are Wyrd's equivalent to a pressganger for Warmachine/Hordes. best of luck the link is here.

https://wyrd-games.net/program

[semanticdm]

Not that I have much experience with it, but what type of tournament are you planning on running?

First things first, figure out budget, location, and times. Budget takes into account prizes, if any, cost of the location to play, etc.

If you have a story-themed tournament, then make up some missions. Otherwise, to make it a little easier on yourself, you can tell everyone that they're going to have scheme X for round 1, scheme Y for round 2, etc.

Figure out how many SS you want people to bring. A couple of options: People can choose before the battle of any models they brought. People make a list of, say, 50 SS, but for each battle, they can only use a 25 SS subset of the list. Otherwise, an escalation tournament is viable (25 ss for round 1, 30 for round 2, ...)

Other stuff to do: Advertise, advertise, advertise! Post on the forums. Talk to the game group. See if other FLGSs in the area will let you put up a flier, etc.

[RisingPhoenix]

I've been kicking around tournament ideas for a while. Feel free to steal any of these, none of these, point at me and laugh (it's fun! I do it all the time)

Model Declarations - I've been trying to figure out how to get the feel of 'hiring your crew for a mission' without it getting ridiculous (i.e. someone bringing every master/model with them, and customizing to every mission as is allowed under RAW). I came up with the following:

- Master is declared at the start.

- You may bring any number of minions with you

- At the beginning of the game, after missions are selected, you place your Master on the table.

- You and your opponent now select schemes, and reveal them as desired. If they require model selection, that occurs after the next step. If they are revealed and require terrain selection, do it now.

- You may now select minions as normal (35 points worth), pull out their cards and place them in a pile. Then you both reveal what army you have hired for the mission.

- Select any models for schemes or terrain pieces for any hidden schemes.

This retains a lot of the feel of the master 'hiring' or otherwise selecting minions who can best serve their purposes from the original book, without anything too nuts. That being said, if a lot of people are new, they're at a large competitive disadvantage with that, in some respects.

Also makes you work for those revealed scheme points.

[RisingPhoenix]

Oh yeah, if you're going to let people choose schemes, then some of them in book 2 (based on published cards) REALLY have to be revised.

Assassinate - No Insignificant Models

Bodyguard - No Insignificant Models

Frame For Murder - this can be easy or tough, up to you

Grudge - No insignificant models (alternatively, must be a 'unique' model if they brought one)

Round Up - really? Some armies meet this by deploying. I'd set it to 'no models with soulstone cost 5 or less'

Master specific schemes - too annoying for people to learn them all competitively, and some are mondo unbalanced, I'd just ban them (Lady Justice's, for instance, kills one of her best abilities and requires her to personally run around the board playing fetch rather than killing things, for 1 VP (no +1) while Zorida can get lucky and get two victory points by splatting something with "Obey").

[deadboy]

I've been kicking around tournament ideas for a while. Feel free to steal any of these, none of these, point at me and laugh (it's fun! I do it all the time)

Model Declarations - I've been trying to figure out how to get the feel of 'hiring your crew for a mission' without it getting ridiculous (i.e. someone bringing every master/model with them, and customizing to every mission as is allowed under RAW). I came up with the following:

- Master is declared at the start.

Not to be too critical, but the point of choosing masters AFTER you get the strategy is that some masters are better at some things than other things. If you are playing ressers and your opponent's strategy is Slaughter then you want to stay away from Niccodemus or Kirai because you are giving them points everytime they kill/you sacrifice one of your cheap summons. Seamus is probably your man. Or god forbid you are playing outcasts and running Leveticus. Lets see, he dies 3-4 times per game. Meaning your opponent gets 30-40 points. Wow.

[RisingPhoenix]

Not to be too critical, but the point of choosing masters AFTER you get the strategy is that some masters are better at some things than other things. If you are playing ressers and your opponent's strategy is Slaughter then you want to stay away from Niccodemus or Kirai because you are giving them points everytime they kill/you sacrifice one of your cheap summons. Seamus is probably your man. Or god forbid you are playing outcasts and running Leveticus. Lets see, he dies 3-4 times per game. Meaning your opponent gets 30-40 points. Wow.

Unfortunately, a real limitation at that point is that to end up with a varied force that is likely to do well at a tournament, you have to buy probably a minimum of half a dozen masters and accompanying models.

Additionally, it makes no thematic sense. What is a strategy? It's a goal you want to accomplish. Who wants to accomplish it? Your master? Well if the master decides to go accomplish the goal after it's been selected, who has made it the goal exactly? Lady Justice hears that {UNKNOWN MASTER X} is in the area and decides to go slaughter all of their minions? Without regard to whether it's Perdita Ortega or Lilith?

I think it's better to just in general rebalance the strategies that certain masters cannot win. And, in that sense, all of the strategies in the original book are good starting points.

Assassinate - Some masters go down easier than others, but with V2 and the Gremlins getting the ability to lower defense to 4 (previously I don't think it was very possible to kill Lilith, short pull my finger bombing, which was unreliable as hell) I don't think anyone CAN'T KILL a master.

Claim Jump - This is fairly balanced.

Reconnitor - Again, balanced. In either incarnation.

Slaughter - Dumb. Not balanced. No incarnation of Slaughter has worked. Ever. The first one was balanced in that it was frequently damn near impossible to accomplish it (okay, so I killed everyone except 1 terror tot. 0 VP. Very fair. Especially when the sucker scouts away from me and I can't move through terrain that fast). This new one is balanced so that it's damn near impossible for some masters to win in it.

Treasure Hunt - Version 2 from second book is much fairer. Ultra high speed Terror Tot treasure moving machines were ugly.

Destroy the Evidence - Change to "If no significant enemy models are within 3" of the token a model may make a (1) Interact..."

Frankly, the entire idea that there's strategies that are really unbalanced so the only solution is to let people toss away the master when you're on one of those flies in the face of solid game design and thematic play.

[nilus]

Unfortunately, a real limitation at that point is that to end up with a varied force that is likely to do well at a tournament, you have to buy probably a minimum of half a dozen masters and accompanying models.

Why don't you do what most TOs are doing and just restrict your players to playing only one faction in a Tourney.

[Hatchethead]

Why don't you do what most TOs are doing and just restrict your players to playing only one faction in a Tourney.

Yarp. Exactly. I have yet to play in a Malifaux tourney wherein I'm permitted to switch faction between matches. I've always had to stipulate which faction I intend to field during sign-up. I own the entire Resser line, so I tend to go that route. That's only three Masters. Well, four if I include Seamus; but I never include Seamus.

[deadboy]

I disagree. If you read any of the fluff, the factions all seem to be pretty close knit. Ramos hands out jobs and manipulates his faction quite well. And while the Nephilim may not all be loyal to Lillith the Zoraida and Pandora seem tight with her. The guild masters all work for the Governor.

But the main point is that the game is designed to be played with the option to use different masters to accomplish different things. Changing that limits the scope of the game.

YES, there is an inherent advantage to people that have bought more models. But that's true in any game that doesn't come whole out of a box. I agree with what Nilus said though. Limiting a player to a particular faction, with possibly X ss worth of prepicked minions can limit things without messing it up too bad.

[LoboStele]

That's the way they were running the Tourneys at GenCon. You had to declare a faction at the very beginning of the Tournament. Then you could switch masters within that faction however you pleased. Then, Book 2 has a list of "Core Strategies" and those are the ones that are recommended for use in Tournaments. That helps you stay away from some of the weirder ones.

@ Rising Phoenix: As for the Schemes...I think to some degree that can just be left open. Yeah, some of them are really hard to do and some are easier, but I think some of that is designed to balance with the Masters themselves. Lady Justice's personal scheme is annoying and takes her out of the action, but that's partly because the rest of her crew can do pretty well on it's own many times. She only has to get involved in a couple of big fights. Makes it tougher for you, since you have to play smarter with your Minions in order to give LJ the freedom to run around the board a little bit. Honestly though, most times I've seen LJ run, she's usually right up in the thick of it, so it'd be pretty likely that she's nearby whenever a Master/Henchman is killed. So her's isn't as hard as it seems. And Zoraida's isn't as simple as you make it sound either. Zoraida has to use Obey on an ENEMY model, who has to fail the resists, and then that model has to be strong enough and close enough in order to attack said master AND kill it. Not always an easy thing to do, what with the Master have SS to use and such probably.

I haven't studied the Schemes real closely, but I didn't notice any of the Master specific ones that seemed THAT out of place.

[bigstupidfighter]

I haven't played any tourneys yet, but selecting Masters before seeing strategies seems to work out fine. Yes, occasionally you'll run into something that's easier or harder to acclomplish with your chosen master, but learning to adapt with what you're given strikes me as more entertaining than 'oh my opponent got Slaughter? God forbid I try to play Nicodem a different style to pull out the win. no, I'll just switch to Seamus."

I like the idea of picking your crew though, so you have some ability to customize, say taking some faster units if you get treasure hunt. Seems like a set Master who can change crews is a good middle ground of flexibility snd continuity in your army.

[deadboy]

I haven't played any tourneys yet, but selecting Masters before seeing strategies seems to work out fine. Yes, occasionally you'll run into something that's easier or harder to acclomplish with your chosen master, but learning to adapt with what you're given strikes me as more entertaining than 'oh my opponent got Slaughter? God forbid I try to play Nicodem a different style to pull out the win. no, I'll just switch to Seamus."

OR

You could play the game as designed and adjust your play to suit the master that suits the objective.

To put it in different terms:

When your car breaks down you don't fix it with a hammer because that's the tool you happened to have in your hand. You look at the problem and get the right tool.

[bigstupidfighter]

Could I not equate choosing Minions to taking the right tools in the same way you describe it as choosing a Master? For that matter, could I not use the same example in the argument that you should be able to choose the right Faction for the job?

It's just my solution to a problem that was posted about picking an entire Faction leading to you needing too many models. I don't know that I agree with the sentiment, but offering my opinion isn't a crime.

[deadboy]

Nope. No crime at all. I just don't think you(being the general you that is running a tournament/leauge rather than a particular person) need to impose more restrictions than the game does. The point of running a tournament is to see who plays the game best. Not nescessarily who plays the most limiting version of it the best.

[gregdorf]

As a player I have no problems with running or building lists based on how Wyrd has set things up and it works well for casual play. When the games becomes more competitive in a tournament setting, an event organizer needs to make things as equal as possible, and discourage opportunities for players to abuse the system.

One example of what happened was the book two tournament at Gen Con. You had 3 players with perfect win one had 26vp, and the other two had 24vp. Well how would you set the rankings if the person that had 26vps could have scored a max of 27 but didn't, and the two players that scored 24vp did score max vp.

I personally dislike the side board idea when it comes to miniature games. It does not enhance the experience and usually degrades the game to a list building contests. In my mind a player should be able to build a balance list that should work for more then one game and against more then one opponent.

[deadboy]

But that's not the way this game was designed. It was made specifically to allow you to build your crew to meet your objective.

[nix]

Or the point of running a tournament could be to bring new players into the game, create a spectacle of a full day of Malifaux gaming, and provide a structured and understood way to give reward players a t the end of that day.

When thats the case, I tend to agree with a fair amount of the sentiment in this thread. I can say that some of the feedback I have already recieved (as an upcoming TO) was that people shied away from Malifaux because they are uncomfortable with the idea of "he/she who has bought the most has a clear advantage in the game". Making the game friendlier to new players and building up to a stronger community of gamers is the biggest motivation to the tournament I am running in October.

I think putting together a Malifaux tournament takes a fair amount of planning, as there are several things in the game system that are different/innovative compared to wider spread games. For tournaments with a fair number of newer players, I think limiting the soul-stone limit to ~25 (a recommendation from these boards) and limiting the strategies and schemes makes a lot of sense. Fixed strategies can really off-set the largest challenges of a fixed list (not just fixed master or faction). Limiting to 1 scheme provides the mechanic of using schemes to offset/augment the strategies while still keeping things fairly simple for newer players.

As the community evolves (take my local community for example) I expect future tournaments will advance in a couple ways. I am confident that we will include multiple schemes and larger crew limits in the future, aiming at the 30 or 35 SS crews as a goal. I can forsee fixed strategies being used, as once tournaments become very competitive there could be cries of "easy" strategies for the winners if random strategies are used. I think fixed shared strategies on each round really enhance the competitive nature, as long as those strategies are announced prior to the tournament.

Related to picking faction, picking master, picking crew per game, that is still to be seen. I know the game is set-up for picking your faction prior to the strategy, then the crew (including master) after the strategy. I believe the Gencon tournament illustrates Wyrds intention (pick 1 faction for the tournament) which I am confident will be the most common way to run a tournament. Overall, I do believe that picking your crew and master each round of a tournament leads to being able to "buy your way" to a win, which I do not personally like.

Just my thoughts.

[deadboy]

I would think an escalation style league would be much more appropriate for getting new players involved in the game. But that's just my 2centavos.

[RisingPhoenix]

Why don't you do what most TOs are doing and just restrict your players to playing only one faction in a Tourney.

That's definitely not a bad idea either. After all, for most factions, you end up getting the models you need to run pretty much any army list. I can argue how some of the factions this makes approximately zero sense for (The ressurectionists are at eachothers throats as much as anyone else, and the Outcasts obviously barely work together at all) but that works very solidly.

I rather like the idea of picking masters before strategies though, but I could be convinced otherwise. Strategies being balanced seems necessary independent of how army selection works - unbalanced is simply unbalanced.

I do happen to think many of the scenarios and schemes presented simply don't work for tournament play.

P.S. On the model specific ones:

"That One's a Keeper" - McMorning gaining 5 body part counters (he doesn't even need to hold them, so he's not deprived of their use) does NOT seem that difficult.

"Primal Source" - Oh friggin hells this one isn't easy. Yes, he doesn't have to announce it, but... wow. Evil.

"A Mother's Love" - oh come on, so she has 2 soulstones left on the last turn, so she can get 2 victory points? Might be balanced if she couldn't do that, but as-is, seems ridiculous.

"Seeds of Betrayal" - yeah, this is a joke. Get a model near dead, then obey something else to kill it? Easy as can be, and Zoraida does this ALL THE TIME.

"Soulless Life" - Oh I'm sorry, you can announce this one? And your opponent can do what exactly? Leveticus can so get himself dead 4 times with ease.

[nix]

I agree @deadboy..... but it seems at least in my local area the 40K immigrants to Malifaux are captured quicker by the "tournaments" than by leagues. My guess is it has to do with people feeling its tough to join escalation leagues when they are already underway. tournaments tend to be a 1 day affair that are repeated, so "easier" to prepare for.

people are funny......

[RisingPhoenix]

Oh, by the way, for simplification purposes for new players, this is what I'd do:

1) Make primary strategy pulls on a balanced strategy list. Give both players the same strategy. Only one can earn a 4 VP victory.

2) Pull for strategy again. Each player gets the second strategy as a scheme, at -1 victory points (so 3/1).

3) Players select a single scheme from a list.

This seems a lot simpler for new players to remember. I'm not sure I'd advocate it for more experienced players, but it speeds the game up significantly (by bringing models into direct conflict on goals much faster) and is easier to remember. It also lessens the chances of draws to near zero.

P.S. Anyone who tries to do the tourney on total VP rather than Win/Loss record is just being silly. This game is much shorter than GWs games, there's no reason not to do a proper Win/Loss setup. You also are just rewarding people for tabling new players, which is a TERRIBLE way to introduce people to the game. Like "Hi, you're new! Great! Let me smash your face into rubble so I can maximize VPs! Glad you came!"

P.P.S. Tournies are a great way to introduce new players to pretty much everyone who plays in the region. I'd definitely make new tournies have as many random prizes as 'winner' prizes (so make a door prize where anyone whose played in every round and hasn't made T4/T8 or won anything is eligible to win, I dunno, a convict gunslinger or something).

Edited September 9, 2010 by RisingPhoenix

[gregdorf]

When it comes to schemes my thought was to limit them to only the ones that can or have to be announced and none of the schemes that allow the players to gain 3 points. That would make sure that in a 3 round tournament the most any player can ever earn is 24vp.

[RisingPhoenix]

When it comes to schemes my thought was to limit them to only the ones that can or have to be announced and none of the schemes that allow the players to gain 3 points. That would make sure that in a 3 round tournament the most any player can ever earn is 24vp.

Which is irrelevant if its strict win/loss record.

I'd actually love to see an argument for anything OTHER than strict win/loss record in this game. It seems ideally suited for it.

[gregdorf]

You could go strictly win/loss or VP totals, either way it usually works out the same. If you use VPs as your primary scoring method then you can use W/L to settle ties, or reverse that.