How to Mature a Terror Tot in 3 easy steps!

[bigstupidfighter]

Instant Mature Nephilim:

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Ingredients

1 Blood Shaman

3 Terror Tots

1 Desperate Mercenary

1 Nekima

Total SS needed: 30

Preparation:

Place Desperate Mercenaries so they are in base to base contact with the Shaman and in meelee range of the tots, who should also be in base contact with the shaman. Nekima just needs to be within 6" of everything else.

Cooking instructions:

Step 1: Tot A kills the Merc and drains its blood, the Shaman takes the corpse counter that drops, using Blood Sense and Blood from the Dead to get 2 blood counters.

Step 2: Tot B uses the blood counters to Grow and Mature. Now having Melee Expert, the Mature kills Tot A, drains its blood, giving the Shaman 2 more blood counters as before.

Step 3: Tot C uses the blood from the Shaman and newly created Mature to Grow and Mature.

Step 4: ?????

Step 5: Profit!!!

Makes 2 Mature Nephilim. Flavor to taste with your favorite Master.

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So, to recap, on turn 1 you should have a Blood Shaman in Base-to-Base with some friendly Mature who can (1) Carry him wherever you need to go. This saves you 9ss over just buying the mature and doesn’t significantly slow you down. In a really big game, you could double the trick and field 2 Shamans, 4 Mature, and Nekima for 47ss.

Edited September 22, 2010 by bigstupidfighter

[Wodschow]

I think we should wait for the official ruling on the Rule of Equivalency before discussing these tactics too much.

A few things to add:

-Nekima is awesome for adding masks and Ca to growing Nephilim.

-When using Desperate Mercenaries you might aswell use Nekimas or Shamans Blood Offering. When Merc is killed he heals a nearby ally and Nekima have regeneration so should recover fairly quickly.

Also related:

-If your master is Zoraida you could bring a Nurse.

Shaman + Nurse = ... Go figure.

[kbdrand]

Agree. The Rule of Equivalency will probably prevent some of this kind of stuff. But, where in your steps do the tots become Young Nephilim?

[bigstupidfighter]

@kbrand: There's nothing stopping them from using Grow and Mature in 1 round if they have the AP, which in this case they do and it states in the steps that they Grow then Mature.

@wodschow: I agree that Nekima is awesome, and you can fit her into a 30ss list with this. I don't know if it would be the best option in small games compared to, say, a lilitu and a couple more tots to make into Lelus, or just more Young or Tots to add firepower and hopefully upgrade later. The reason I say this is that with Nekima in this Crew in a smaller game, some objectives may be hard to achive with so few units.

As for the Rule of Equivilency, nothing in Malifaux is completely safe from being Errata'd. This is as it should be.

[kbdrand]

So, you are casting the spell twice then? The first Grow spell grows them to a Young, then you have to cast Mature (and have enough blood tokens) to get them from a Young to a Mature. If that is the case, then sorry, just doesn't seem clear in your steps that you are casting two different spells.

[nilus]

Interesting combo but like a lot of Res combos it has the same draw back. One you need a decent card with a suit. Which isn't always easy to have round 1.

Second you basically waste your entire turn to do this and not taking into account what your opponent does. A lot of fast moving or long range crews can shut this down really quick.

[nilus]

@kbrand: There's nothing stopping them from using Grow and Mature in 1 round if they have the AP, which in this case they do and it states in the steps that they Grow then Mature.

Then don't you need really good luck or 4 cards in your hand with a mask? I think both grow and mature require a suit to cast.

[bigstupidfighter]

@nilus: Mature doesn't require masks. Its true though that you do need two 9+ masks to pull this off, and Iid mix that up and say 6+ in the OP. Fixing that now. Running Nekima, as has been pointed out by both Wodschow and myself, makes the casting of grow and Mature trivial if reliability is a necesity.

As for wasting my entire turn on this, please explain? The shaman still allows the entire force to move up 8", with Lillith yo can Earthquake up some more, plus any units other than those directly involved in this can move up even more. You should be able to get some guys to the middle on turn 1 with this easy. The whole point of this idea, to me at least, is that unlike many summoning engines, this one does not slow you down signifigantly.

[nilus]

Okay maybe not your whole turn but you are still wasting activations for several models(and with no companion abilities you are wasting them over a large part of your turn). While your opponent is moving, position or just downright attacking you.

You are also clumping together several models which means you are easy picking for pulses and blasts.

I am not knocking your combo, but it still suffers from a lot of things to do in one turn and a lot of models to depend on to stay alive in the right spot.

Also why take 3 Terror Tots when you are going to kill one. Why not just take a 2nd Desperate Mercenary?

[bigstupidfighter]

Granted, you are clumped together, and granted, you are using several activations, but, remember, this is all the first turn. Most things aren't going to have a shot at hitting you, and most things won't be able to outpace you with Lillith and the Shaman moving units around. I don't know about every unit in Book 2, but in Book 1 Neverborn were easily the fastest crews.

As for the mercs and tots, my original plan was to go with 2 and 2, but it doesn't quite work without using actions of units outside the combo, and I wanted to avoid that, to mitigate the issue of the turn being taken up. But if the 1ss is important for some reason, yes, it is possible.

Now I haven't played a huge number of games, so I'm sure there are strategies I'm not familier with, but... what armies to you forsee doing serious amounts of damage to your crew on turn 1? All of this is over by turn 2 reliably if you bring Nekima, so turn 1 is the only opening your opponents have. Is being vulnerable to blasts on turn 1 that big a deal? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, although it hasn't been in my (albeit limited) experience.

On a side note, if you don't want to bring Nekima, this trick works with 3 Young nephilim an 2 Desperate mercenaries, though you save fewer SS it's a good alternative.

[nilus]

Crews that could be up in your face on turn 1

1) Another Lilith crew. As you said they are all about mobility

2) Ortegas. With 3 Obeys in the family now you can take several free walk/charges in a round. And since companion is determined before any model activates you can activate all 3 models that cast obey and one get obeys all in one round. Move the sacrificial lamb into position and then have him activate himself and do what needs to be done. A Papa Loco Bomb, A Lead storming Santiago or even a shot gun weddinged Executioner can be up in the armies face turn one doing a lot of damage.

3) Zoriada doesn't need to even get to you, she can link a voodo doll to a model across the board and just cast obey on them. Nekima is not so fun when she is killing your own stuff

4) Viktorias using there Sister abilities and the Student of Conflict can get up there and turn your deployment zone into a Cuisinart as well.

I am sure there are others but those are the 4 easiest I can think of.

[bigstupidfighter]

Lillith- Very true, she could get up to you. Of course, you're still as strong as another Lillith crew, and while they're moving up you're evolving. They get first hit but you have stronger units. Probably a fair fight.

Ortegas- I recently played a game with Lillith against the Ortegas, good use of cover and illusionary forest seems to shut them down pretty well, at least for a turn or two. Yes, Dita will put some hurt on you, so this could be a concern.

Zoraida- This is what she does to everyone. Since she can command you to make a Charge, I don't see how being clustered up makes me more vulnerable. Could throw in a wrench, but that's Z for you. Also, the Voodoo Doll still needs LoS to connect to an enemy, so from all the way across the board this isn't reliable.

Vokrorias- I have to admit I don't know how Viktorias work having never played them, but it sounds to me like they'd be bringing their masters unsupported into the middle of a melee crew. Bad idea.

These all sound like crews that could give you a good fight, but none of them would be doing anything they couldn't do to a more 'standard' Nephilim crew. Also, i think I'd run Zoraida as my Master for this crew, so I could do some shenanigans of my own. It looks to me like this crew would outperform a more standard one 90% of the time. Not saying it's unbeatable, but it isn't easily defeated either.

EDIT: thinking about it more I do see your point with the Ortegas now that they have a third Obey. I think I'd have to play a couple of games to see how bad it really is, but it sounds like a potentail game-loser.

I don't see Zoraida or Viktorias being a major threat, but this definitely needs to be playtested against Pertida(I think Dita will own this crew) and Lillith (I see this as a pretty even fight)

Edited September 8, 2010 by bigstupidfighter

[AvatarForm]

bigstupidfighter- nice strat, very situational. I will be sure to attempt this at my next games meet.

However, I usually play a different list, I will keep this one in mind for those tourneys where you get to choose 3 lists for a single master for the day. Depending who Im against, this could be a winner.

[roboshmoo]

~edit~

-Roboshmoo

Nevermind, missed a major factor in what I was thinking.

Edited September 14, 2010 by roboshmoo

[Wodschow]

@roboshmoo... You might want to re-read the entry on Black Blood Shaman. The Bloody Mess trigger only works on spells that already require you to discard a blood counter. There will never be a net gain of Blood Counters.

[roboshmoo]

Blatantly missed that ...good call

[bigstupidfighter]

Didn't see what you originally posted, but it's worth noting that with Nekima giving +masks to casting, Blood Shaman will get their counters back as soon as they use them with Inject Blood or Taint Blood.

Also, I did up a battle report using this a few days ago,

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15273

[Rathnard]

I need to read up on the Blood Shaman's rules again, but this doesn't sound right.

Step 1: Tot A kills the Merc and drains its blood, the Shaman takes the blood counter that drops, using Blood Sense and Blood from the Dead to get 2 blood counters.

So you're saying that by killing the desperate Merc, you gain 3 blood counters? The rule of equivalency should limit that to one blood counter and a corpse, and I believe the Shaman can only use the corpse for his own spells etc, not to help a terror tot grow/mature.

Step 4: The Shaman, who has still not activated, moves up 8” and uses Blood in the Air twice to advance the crew.

Blood in the air is a (0) action, right? In which case instinctual only lets you use two different (0) actions, not the same action twice.

Like I said, I don't have the book in front of me so i need to re-read the relevant bits to be sure.

[bigstupidfighter]

Oh, I meant he picks up a corpse counter, I'll go back and edit that. Blood shaman uses corpse counters as blood ccounters.

I'm fairly sure the wording on Instinctual is not meant to prohibit casting the same spell twice with it, I could be wrong though. I think I'll edit out the whole blood in the air thing anyway, it just adds to the length of the post.

[TimeLapse]

You can get 3 tokens in one turn, or at lest I think you can here what I would do, please let me know if I got this wrong or not.

First you kill the D merc with a tot and gain one blood counter and one Corpse.

Nekima Gives mask suits to spells for the turn.

The Shaman picks up the corpse token and then does "Blood Offering" takes 4 wounds grabs one blood counter.

Next you cast Inject blood on herself using the corpse counter to heal 2wds with the added mask to her casting she gains a blood counter back. You can even cast it a 2nd time to heal all the rest of the wounds and gain the blood counter back that you spent on casting the spell a 2nd time.

Thus you have three to play with.

I could have this wrong but I think its kinda like laundering money with the shaman with the corpse counter, you just have to use it to get a real blood counter back.

on the same note you could have 2 Shaman and nekima all use "Blood Offering" and use there spells to make Nekima fully healed and leave two wounds on each of the Shaman. thus gaining 3 blood tokens without killing anything, 5 if you do what I laid out above as well.

I could be wrong about that to but it seems right to me.

-Andrew

[Rathnard]

I don't believe a model can target itself with spells, unless the spell itself specifies that they can. So 2 Shamans could cast inject blood on each other, but they couldn't do it on themselves.

Blood shaman uses corpse counters as blood ccounters.

But other models would still consider them corpse counters. So a Terror Tot wouldn't be able to use the Shaman's corpse counter to grow.

[bigstupidfighter]

The Blood Sense ability allows you to get a Blood Counter from a model even if Drain Blood was used on it according to a ruling in the RoE thread. So you can get two real blood counters pllus a corpse counter from the death of a 30mm base model.

Damaging and subsequently healing your own models also works. In addition to the Blood Shaman, Lilitu also does healing and Nekima provides Regeneration, so there's plenty of heals to go round if you want to go that route. It's not what I was doing in this example however, perhaos I should take a closer look at exactly how efficient this can be.

EDIT: Rathnard has stolen my mojo! My plans are covered in gooey pink death! Tots cannot grow via Corpse counters, this could be an issue but I will work it out. In the morning thouh, its 1am here.

Edited September 22, 2010 by bigstupidfighter

[TimeLapse]

I don't believe a model can target itself with spells, unless the spell itself specifies that they can. So 2 Shamans could cast inject blood on each other, but they couldn't do it on themselves.

But other models would still consider them corpse counters. So a Terror Tot wouldn't be able to use the Shaman's corpse counter to grow.

But a shamen can use the corpes counter in a spell as if it were a blood token. So you cast inject blood and discard the corpes counter and through the trigger you gain a real blood counter back.

Its a backdoor way but it works.

As for not targeting youself with a spell i have seem players target themself for a long time, Like with liliths Transposition spell, Dispel magic on Stalkers and Decembers touch on Tina.

Normaly when you cant target youself it will say other model or enamy model to make sure.

I could be wrong about this but if I am wrong there going to be alot of Lilith players who will be mad that they can no longer telaport in and use her whirling death.

-Andrew

Edited September 22, 2010 by TimeLapse

[Rathnard]

Well I was wrong about Blood Sense preventing Drain blood, so the combo is still pretty good.

But a shamen can use the corpes counter in a spell as if it were a blood token. So you cast inject blood and discard the corpes counter and through the trigger you gain a real blood counter back.

Yep, that'd work fine.

As for not targeting youself with a spell i have seem players target themself for a long time, Like with liliths Transposition spell, Dispel magic on Stalkers and Decembers touch on Tina.

I don't have the book on me but here's the errata, pg 4;

"Declare Target, then Check Range (p.54)

Replace second sentence with “Any model other than the

attacker within the attacker’s LoS can be targeted.”"

This is specifically in reference to melee/ranged attacks so until I can find something else, making ranged/melee attacks on yourself is not permitted, but spells that are not or are fine. I *think* inject blood is a spell. If so, you wouldn't be able to target yourself with it.

All this talk of Blood counters is making me want to try Lilith out for a change. The Black Blood Shaman really opens up some interesting options for her!

[Sliver Chocobo]

don't know why i didn't find this form before, but i was first to come up with the "killing your own models to grow your tot's idea

Lilith's best spell by far is by Transposition, Combined with a terror tot can get lilith to 12' with 1 AP or even better get an unactivated mature 12' ahead, currently for book i have been working together a 35 point list with

Lilith

5 terror tots

Nikama

Litilu

The way this work is this terror tot A activeates and killes , and drains blood (two blood counters, Nikam 1, TTA 1) Litilu second, using the blood counter from TTA, she it in to a Lelu, then killes TTC and uses drain blood (thre blood countersin total, Nikam 2, Litilu 1) TTD grows and then matures (much easlier due to Nikam) TTE sprints into the distance but not too far that Lilith can't cach up, finaly Liliith move into postion where she is within 12' of the mature and the terror tot and swaps them around, second turn use the mature as a distraction (by killing somthing) bring the rest of your crew foward and well smash stuff, if went to 40 points i would add a student of comflict because mature's should NEVER HAVE FAST

however i never thought of useing the despert mec's, mostly due to the fact i didn't know they cost 2 at the time

but this way i will admit it's a little overpowered

if you hire 3 d mercs

2 terror tots

Nikama

lilith

first of lilith kills a merc and uses drain blood (2 blood counters)

terror tot A kills another merc uses drain blood and grows leaving three counters

terror tot B does the same, leaving for counters left.

next turn mature the young nepilim

Ok i admit this list works better with two more terror tot's to kill the mercs and other to fully mature in one turn but this is the basic minium needed