Desolation engine versus Lilith

[Tatile]

I've only recently started playing, having gotten the Lilith starter box and some nice little additions. My constant opponent (though I might be playing another guy with Ressurectionists soon, if I can get the nerve) is a guy with ten years of generic wargaming+theorycrafting experience behind him to my... six months and occasional glances at the rulebook. There's some skill imbalance.

I can do alright-ish against the Ramos team, often being a bit threatning before getting blown apart by spiders. My main problem is he's decided Leveticus is amazing-amazing, in conjunction with a Desolation Engine and the new Dust-and-Ashes. Needless to say I just can't seem to kill anything bar the few Steampunks, dogs and the Engine (once).

What I have at my disposal is, I suppose, the stereotypical demonic lot:

Lilith

Cherub

Mature x2

Young x2

Tots x6

Lilitu x2

Lelu

I've been advised (by my opponent nonetheless) to get some Waldgeist so that I can abuse woods when I can, but at the moment I'd rather learn to use what I have, then spend more money and keep losing.

So far I've learnt I need to keep the Steampunks to a minimum to prevent them from turning into an Engine, and also to stay the hell away from Leveticus lest I be turned into a Waif. I've not come up with a good way to counter Alyss, other than to hide. Unfortunatly with my lot being a melee crew, I need to get into combat. It seems that by the time I'm halfway there my crew's half dead and I've lost at the beginning of turn four.

Any advice?

[Killionaire]

Find a way to transposition Leveticus as far as hell away from the waifs as possible, preferrably after Levi activates and prepares his own death (IE, 1 or few WDs left).

If the Waifs haven't activated yet, they'll die if they don't get within range of him. Do not try to attrition Leveticus. Go for the throat. Neutralize the engine if you can or keep it out of play by tying it up with something useless, and kill Leveticus and his two girls.

[shekbo]

Kill. The. Waifs. If you can get them Levi's toast.

The lelu and lilitu are right in Leveticus's killing range (e.g. Expensive but possible for him to kill in one activation) and I doubt they'll work too well. If you add in a few good ranged models (madnesses maybe?) you'll be in better shape, you really need to snipe those waifs so they're forced to stay away from you, that can really hinder Levi, so he has to waste actions moving.

Also, if you're having trouble getting into melee, here's a trick. Get a nasty melee model, either a mature or young neph in melee range of Lilith, with lilith also 12" away from a group of enemy models. Let's say Alyce with a couple aboms.

Use the switch two models spell, and boom, you're in melee range of alyce with Lilith, and that Nephilim is right where you need him to be for a nasty activation.

If you need to get into melee, use that spell of lilith's. It is absolutely brutal, giving you an enemy model in the completely wrong place (hopefully close to you) and one of your own models in havoc wreaking range.

Edited September 5, 2010 by shekbo

[Omadon]

I've been advised (by my opponent nonetheless) to get some Waldgeist so that I can abuse woods when I can, but at the moment I'd rather learn to use what I have, then spend more money and keep losing.

Then he's lying to you. Waldgeists are pants against Levi as he ignores armour.

As a Levi player - you should keep in mind two things. The first of which (and simultaniously most rewarding/difficult) - Transpositioning him away from the waifs is good, as it'll kill them both when they activate. You're at a solid dissadvantage against his high Wp, so this isn't particularly reliable if they're waiting for it and are saving cards to wards you off. Screw up transposition and you're pretty much just stood there, waiting to be wasted to death (literally). Also - retrospectivley, if he gets initiative, figures you're going to do this, and then companion activates one of them with him, they only die if they finish an activation far enough away from him.

The second, and probably easiest of the things you can do to him, is to engage him with Lilith (hopefully after he's activated) and put him to exactly two wounds. This prevents him from stacking a stone to use on you, and also prevents him from using unnatural wasting (the badass one that halves your HP) It also (while this might not sound like a faveourable result) prevents Alyce from straight shooting him in the back of the head to kill him off. The goal here isn't to kill him this turn, it's to stare him for cards and HP. Lock him in melee and prevent him from dying has two benefits - Levi with no HP to spend can't really do anything to Lilith in melee, as Unmaking costs you HP, and it also prevents him from refreshing his hand, while you get to pick up another 7. Once you've got a turn where he's been starved, Then you target the waifs. Until this point, simply do not let him get LoS to you. Levi isn't quick by any stretch of the imagination, and tbh - you can kill Alyce with damn near anything. She only has 4Df, I've had her taken down by Tots before.

Other things to consider - If you get the chance, swapping an SPA primed to become an engine with something scary really screws up his day, and making that kind of play often will force engines to pop up early. Still not sure what exactly to do about Ashes (Which pleases me, half of his abilitys were my idea ^^) Find some way to get a mature up in his grill and two-shot the ****er before he has a chance to whirling-blender attack your stuffs, then pray you get a lucky round of melee hitting the core - again, the mature is pretty good at it due to having a weak of 4.

Also - not really my thing, but have you considered taking Lilith's personal totem and dropping Love on a desolation engine/SPA? Any effects applied to one shift to the other when they spawn, so even if you have to do it early, it's going to be stuck not being able to hit stuff for the whole turn. Especially good if you can catch one that's just had Burnout speculativley cast on it ^^

At present - that's about all I can think of, I've had alot of experience in the Lilith/Levi matchup, as my brother mains her, and tbh - he usually kicks my ass.

[tenabrae]

I've rarely done Lilith vs. Levi but in a non assassin/slaughter you can do a lot to just keep him out of the scenario with your vastly superior manouverability.

Depending on how much terrain you're playing with, you can push Leve back and back as he throws his waifs into whatever cover is nearby to protect them (which of course against any of your winged stuff doesn't help).

As omadon said, not killing Levi is generally the best way to hamper him, leave him on low wounds and go for the kill when you can get him and his waif dead to rights.

[Geckilian]

Then he's lying to you. Waldgeists are pants against Levi as he ignores armour.

Waldgeists were suggested as there were 7 large forests on the board for terrain, which would have slowed down the Desolation Engine as well as easily killed off SPA's.

[AvatarForm]

Waldgeists were suggested as there were 7 large forests on the board for terrain, which would have slowed down the Desolation Engine as well as easily killed off SPA's.

Waldgeists would be good if you used them in the forests. Especially those close to Levi and the Waifs. THis would prevent him sheltering near them due to the range of the 'geist' but you could also move them around to your advantage.

[Iamwyrd]

LEVI BREAKER!!!!!! ALERT, WARNING, LEVI PLAYERS AVOID WITH CAUTION......

Alright, I hated playing against Levi for the longest time. I never won against him, I brought Lilith, zoriada, and Pandora. Nothing, I always lost, until one day I was running scenarios through my head and found Levis weakness. I've done this multiple times and won against him ore at least killed him by turn two.

You have to do this to the teeth or it will not work, it also only works with neverborn and is quite a point sink:

BAD JUJU.

Now before you say bad juju sucks hear me out, I've ran it through my head tons of times. Juju when activated turn one is summoned 7" away from a model. So when a model is activated Levi has to summon his waif six inches away. That's fine it still works. Summon bad juju 7" away directly between Levi and the waif. Juju is slow but it doesn't matter, walk juju straight towards the middle of Levi and waif. Then activate landslide. Its a (0) acting with a 3" pulse, and if done correctly both of them should be exactly 3" away hitting both of them. Its resist is defence, and the waif having a low df is awesome, so cheat it high and you don't have to worry about the waif anymore, and if your lucky you'll hit Levi as well and he will have 5 wds left leaving him in bad shape.

Also you dont have to worry about him turning the juju into a waif because it is a construct.

This trick has never failed me yet, and it is lagit too.

And even if they move Levi first target the waif and keep your stuff back so Levi can't reach anything, and Levi will eventually wittle to nothing.

That's my Levi bane, but like I said it only works with neverborn.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Iamwyrd

[Blank]

Juju when activated turn one is summoned 7" away from a model. So when a model is activated Levi has to summon his waif six inches away. That's fine it still works. Summon bad juju 7" away directly between Levi and the waif.

Uhm, what? Levi summons his waif in base contact with him. Also, Bad Juju is summon from one of his controllers models, not the opponents. How did you plan on summoning Juju between Levi and the waif?

[Iamwyrd]

Where does it say summon bad juju from your models, I could of swore it is 7" from an enemy model. I don't have my book in front of me as I am at work.

[Iamwyrd]

So I used my final life line to phone a friend. Lol

And it is anywhere on the table at least 7" away from an enemy model. Is where juju is summoned.

Final answer.

[Sandwich]

Bad Juju is summoned 7" away from an enemy model yes, but the Waif is B2B.

Any construct could work for this, its not Neverborn specific, but I wouldn't suggest it.

Levi is very scary if you're new and don't like to keep them occupied.

As Lilith I cannot forsee any difficulty dropping him by turn three.

Move her with a Mature Nephilim, using her animated Forest to block his LoS until you're within charging range.

Companion her and her Nephilim, take Lilith, pick off Levi, take the Mature, and pick off the Waif.

Bada bing, bada boom.

Realize that killing everything is not always the best idea, and sometimes you'll just want to do your Strategy and scheme to pull of a win, so unless your Strategy is Control Power, ignore him and do what you have too, because he is a huge hassle and its generally a waste of time to try to kill him.

[Iamwyrd]

Even if the waif is base to base that's even better because then they are right next to each other so you have less models around to worry about. And that's is usually who I bring against Levi. Is Lilith, because she can handle the DE no problem.

[AvatarForm]

LEVI BREAKER!!!!!! ALERT, WARNING, LEVI PLAYERS AVOID WITH CAUTION......

This trick has never failed me yet, and it is lagit too.

I LOL'd. I can even imagine Sarah Palin saying something like this.

Your announcement isnt groundbreaking stuff, your pulse is like any AoE strategy already out there.

[icemantis99]

Uhm, what? Levi summons his waif in base contact with him. Also, Bad Juju is summon from one of his controllers models, not the opponents. How did you plan on summoning Juju between Levi and the waif?

Did that get officially errated again? Last word I heard was that it was played with RAW, meaning Levi summons the Waifs within 6", and summons to within 6" of a waif when he respawns. Sketch said they were working on it, but there's been no update since then that I've seen.

Edited September 12, 2010 by icemantis99

[Iamwyrd]

I LOL'd. I can even imagine Sarah Palin saying something like this.

Your announcement isnt groundbreaking stuff, your pulse is like any AoE strategy already out there.

Its the only turn one aoe I know of.

[Iamwyrd]

Did that get officially errated again? Last word I heard was that it was played with RAW, meaning Levi summons the Waifs within 6", and summons to within 6" of a waif when he respawns. Sketch said they were working on it, but there's been no update since then that I've seen.

I don't think so, that's why I've been saying between them.

[icemantis99]

Its the only turn one aoe I know of.

Rasputina does it better, lol. :-P

Edited September 12, 2010 by icemantis99

[Iamwyrd]

Rasputina does it better, lol. :-P

True, but not turn one.

The bad juju trick shuts Levi down turn one. Because if he has no waif he doesn't come back.

[Wodschow]

Wait... This is totally -not- doable.

At least 7" away.

You can never get part of the enemys base to be within the 3" pulse even if you walk 4" straight towards them.

And you suggest hitting several models with the pulse?

That is mathematically impossible.

You cannot walk 4" straight towards two different models at once (unless they're behind one another, but that is not the case here...).

[icemantis99]

True, but not turn one.

The bad juju trick shuts Levi down turn one. Because if he has no waif he doesn't come back.

Problem with that is two-fold.

First, you've got all the standard alpha-strike issues- you've got to spoend a LOT of energy going after Levi turn 1. Also, how are you killing Levi besides the landslide? Could take a bit of force if the other player decides play defensive, because turn 1 Levi's all the way across the board.

Second, as a Levi player, I tend to bring a dog for situations just like this. 2 SS, gets me a second waif, no problem. If the other player does that, you've got an issue. Same thing if he positions a SPA next to levi for that reason, etc, etc.

If the levi player either doesn't let his master die, or makes a second waif, you've just suicided JuJu for no gain.

This is just my observations, of course.

[Iamwyrd]

Nevermind, its harder to explain than to do. I've done it plenty of times and the people who I play with know how it works. Its really hard to explain that's why I keep it to myself. Maybe ill draw a diagram And post it.

[karn987]

Nevermind, its harder to explain than to do. I've done it plenty of times and the people who I play with know how it works. Its really hard to explain that's why I keep it to myself. Maybe ill draw a diagram And post it.

Yeah I honestly don't see how you can pull this off. It is impossible to get Bad JuJu into Land Slide range the turn he comes up unless the enemy moves into the range. Otherwise he will always be just shy of them because he has to be placed at least 7" away which means his walk 4 and 3" landslide will be just out of range.

I'm interested in how you pull this off because I'm quite confident you have soemthing wrong. JuJu is NEVER in range to do any of his attacks the first turn he comes out. He isn't, math says no.

Honestly man... how do you pull this off without ignoring the fact that you will not be in range ever.

Edited September 12, 2010 by karn987

[Iamwyrd]

Its fine. I just don't understand how if you are at least 7" away and you walk 4" plus a 3" pulse, how that's not 7". That's means if something has 10" range and your exactly 10" away you can't do it?

I'm just confused. :der:

So effectively everybodies range is (insert range here).1 [Ex. 10.1" for a peacebringer to actually hit somebody.]

Edited September 12, 2010 by Iamwyrd

[Tatile]

I'm just confused. :der:

You're confused? I'm trying to make sense of half of what's being said here.

Much of the advice on the first page, however, was useful. Used transposition a few times in a recent match and did some damage, but some positioning problems and tactical errors on my part (aka situational blindness) meant I still lost.

Also, there are apparently crew changes in the works for Leveticus, so I'll either do alright against it or lose horribly again. At least I now have some tactics to approach it with. Except for the Juju stuff; I really don't understand that.