Lilith advantage needed.

[Satyrwyld]

This is sort of a weird request, because I'm asking how to lose to Lilith. I have all four Neverborn masters, Colette, the Ortegas, and all the Rezzers except McMourning. A guy at the store has picked up Lilith (and recently Zoraida) and after about 4-5 games with various masters, he has yet to come close to challenging me (Chompy and his alps wiped out everything but the masters Turn One of tonight's all-Neverborn brawl). Assuming I am not some walking demigod of Fate Deck Awesome who cannot be beaten, what assortment would people recommend to give him a fighting chance against me?

[EricJ]

well, rule one against Dreamer...don't set up in a pack, lol

Otherwise I'll let the others around here give some good Lilith tactics, because she can be a powerhouse

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Non-Resistable Damage. Like Ramos' spiders going boom.

[Q'iq'el]

Before I give may advise, an observation: Lilith used to be recommended (and still is) as an easy to learn master good for the beginners.

I don't think it's true anymore. She is very straightforward, but a straightforward master in a world of trickery is in big trouble. Your opponents understand Lilith well - you must be quite experienced to understand what makes them tick and how to stop that damn ticking.

It doesn't mean she's weaker. She just takes more experience to beat newer masters.

Because she has few tricks of her own, she needs to position herself and her crew very precisely. You need local advantage to beat your targets and that means dealing with the opponent piecemeal.

Tools you'll need:

- Soulstones. Give her a cache of 6 or more. Burn them mostly to keep her alive. If there's a chance for an expensive kill, you can use a SS for that too.

- Illusionary forest - use it not only as cover, but also as an obstacle. Drop it on the opponents you want "late" for the fight and watch them lose 1~2AP just to get out of it.

- Cherub - so that you can Transposition Lilith herself... Some people like Primordial Magic more, but I think 1 extra card is still a random blessing, while Cherub brings unique tools to the crew.

- Love and Knock Aside - use them to selectively disable or remove from combat models that threaten Lilith the most.

I have to test it yet, but I feel the crews that have abilities preventing damage or allowing models escape from melee will have harder time dealing with Whirlwinds against big groups of their models than against multiple strike vs. single model. Multiple strikes against multiple models means you just can't get all of them out in time (or if you do, you're out of hand/soulstones).

- A Waldgeist and a large forest (let's say GW's plastic wood) are great. You can actually engage into area denial and that is great both as a way of splitting your opponent's crew and keeping them where you want them to be.

- Doppelganger - too expensive for small games, but in larger games you can borrow some of the opponent's trickery.

Either way, you have to adapt to your opponents each time, so you need to know them well. That's not a beginner's master anymore IMHO.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Celenial]

If he is stuck on Neverborn, there isn't much I can say. If he is willing to branch out to the other factions then there might be a few things that can be done.

Perdita can be a beast against Lilith. Most of her crews are going to be melee focused and the Ortegas range can be very helpful.

The other Master that would be good is Sonia. One of my friends plays Lilith and these two are the only ones that have successfully killed her.

[Satyrwyld]

Sorry, I realize my initial request isn't common, so I think I didn't make it clear enough. My opponent plays Lilith. I have pretty much wiped out his force every game to date. I have beaten down his Lilith with Chompy, Pandora (multiple lists), Colette, and the Ortegas. I usually give him a choice of opposition between a couple masters I feel like playing. He's an enthusiastic new recruit, and I'd like to see him win to keep him from getting too frustrated, so I'm trying to figure out what to use that would give him an edge, without holding up a big neon sign that says "I'm throwing the game."

[Chucklemonkey]

In simplest terms

You go the Ortega's

He brings at least one waldgeist and a cherub to the table (and you make sure there is some forest terrain about, the more the better for him).

As you send Papa forward he keeps transposing him back or with an outlying model - preferably with the Cherub to allow Lilith to smack face.

Realistically though she is a little one dimensional and as you know how she works you can limit that further. As long as the game is fun I don't think your opponent should mind the challenge. I lose a lot - particularly with Doctor M, it's why I tend not to post in tactic threads - but I still love the game as it is fun and my opponents are good people. (I didn't even realise I always lose until someone pointed it out)

[Gurslak]

I think you need to play dumb.

In all seriousness, you know how the game plays, how your crews work together and how his crew works together, in fact you probably have a good idea what he's going or trying to do before he does. Therefore you need to limit your moves in a bit to let him workout his crew and how it interacts with itself and his opponents.

I'm not saying purposely lose, but if you dont one turn wipe him and release all you can when you can he'll (hopefully) start to get the hang of things a bit more give you more of a challenge.

[karn987]

Hmmm Lilith is an interesting master and a huge power house but she is not the best to go against the other Neverborn masters honestly. She is great against the rest, but the Neverborn masters generally specialize in beating lists like hers (melee focused).

Lilith can crush the Ortega's if she can advance far enough and fast enough to get in their faces. Lilith's crew is incredibly offensive and he just needs to keep out of LOS and he can beat them. Otherwise this is a bit of a hard request to comment on. I would say subtly throw him a game to build his confidence, and lose it by not cheating at the critical points even if you can. Just be shrewed about it and win some and lose the big ones.

Otherwise, I could talk about Lilith tactics till tomorrow but I think I would need to be talking to him if it was to do a ton of good. I say have him read the lilith posts on the boards and consider the models in book 2 as well. Nekima and the Blackblood Shaman are incredible and can give him a huge edge (especially Nekima since she can easily obliterate a crew if given the chance).

But otherwise, just not sure what to do hmmm. If it was me, I would shredly throw the game to build confidence and try to help him build the best list he can. Also guide him towards picking schemes that are easy for Lilith (generally Assassinate and Bodyguard being the easiest) and go from there. Because remember, it always comes down to VP for who won.

[Natty]

Has he taken a look at the new book yet? There is quite a lot of stuff for Lilith in there that I feel really rounds out her list.

Now she has many new strategies and isn't quite as one-dimensional as before. Lots of the new nephilim do things besides "I SMASH YOUR FACE RAWRRAWRRAWR".

[kbdrand]

Try playing Ramos or Nicodem and bunch up your forces. Also, depending upon game size, you might want to suggest he add another Mature to the mix. Or at least a young and a mature instead of the three tots and one mature that come in the box set.

Or even better, try running Somer and his gremlin crew. You should be able to lose easy with them.

And remember to play to the strategies and schemes, not to just kill models. Maybe find someone else that is good to coach this guy. Lilith should really be able to stomp most people unless they are really good players.

[Natty]

Also, depending upon game size, you might want to suggest he add another Mature to the mix. Or at least a young and a mature instead of the three tots and one mature that come in the box set.

With how much easier it is to get blood counters with the new models, I don't even think starting with a mature is a good idea. If you really want a big model to start, better to have him get a Nekima (only a few more points), and then use it to easily mature those tots into that mature nephilim in a few turns.

[quotemyname]

Hi guys,

I feel like I should post here seeing as how I am the opponent in question that Satyrwyld is talking about.

I'll start by answering a few of the bigger comments and questions.

The issue here is not that I'm getting discouraged. At all. Knowing that I keep getting my ass kicked by Satyr is really given me renewed interest in this game. (I won every other game I ever played against the rest of my friends just by rushing the field with Lilith). Going against the other neverborn masters, however has been quite difficult.

Pandora has made me learn to respect the activation order, put simply, (now if I can just get it right...). But my biggest problem so far is that while I know how to run Lilith to a T (I feel I can say this after about 10 games with her, and pouring over her tactics section on these boards), I don't have the abilities of the other masters memorized. Therefore, when Lord Chompybits' Dreamer decided to summon no less than 4 alps (which soon became 7 alps) and two other nightmares right next to most of my important units AFTER all of my units had activated, well... you do the math (I shake my fist at Satyr for manipulating the Poltergeist's Persistent Distraction to allow the Dreamer to activate last out of all of the 12 or so units on the field).

As one final note, I haven't looked at most of the stuff in the new book because I don't own it yet. I in fact just ordered my copy on Amazon earlier today. But I do plan to use plenty of the new stuff to beef up her lists since Satyr has repeatedly mentioned that the new book has given her some pretty powerful supplements (now if I could only actually find those models for sale).

So in short, what I'm really looking for here is less of a, "How to play lilith," and more of a, "What to do/not do against Pandora/Chompybits/Colette, etc."

Thanks in advance,

-Q

[Sliver Chocobo]

Lelu and litiu are lot less squishy that the other nepilim also one of my favorite combos is the student of confict and a mature nepilim

[quotemyname]

While giving the Mature Nephilim Fast would be pretty destructive, it seems like it's putting all of your eggs in one basket. Which, if I may note, has not been working for me against any of the crews that Satyr runs. Every time I try to mount an offensive by gathering troops under cover or some such, he manages to preempt it with an almost total counter.

[Sliver Chocobo]

It's a verry good combo, the mature has 6 walk 10 charge and a two inch melee range, plus two attacks this combo is verry distrucive and a useful distraction while your other models, yes it is suicidal, but a useful tatic

[Natty]

(I shake my fist at Satyr for manipulating the Poltergeist's Persistent Distraction to allow the Dreamer to activate last out of all of the 12 or so units on the field).

If I am not mistaken, Poltergeist is a Pandora only totem and can't be taken to make The Dreamer activate last unless you are in a brawl with both Pandora and The Dreamer. In which case you'd get another master in addition to Lilith to fight them with.

It would be sick if you could do it with the Dreamer though.

In my tournament list I used (past tense) Silurids and Poltergeist to make all my Silurids activate last and attack 20 inches away at the end of a turn, then Doppelganger lets me go first and simo activate them all again. With a 30 point list (4 Silurids) you end up making up to 32 attacks with a huge movement range in between your opponents activation. It's actually pretty boring, but powerful.

[Satyrwyld]

If I am not mistaken, Poltergeist is a Pandora only totem and can't be taken to make The Dreamer activate last unless you are in a brawl with both Pandora and The Dreamer. In which case you'd get another master in addition to Lilith to fight them with.

It was a Neverborn battle royale: the young and trendy Pandora and Dreamer against the tired old Lilith and Zoraida.

[quotemyname]

Satyr speaks truth. He started with three models on the field, and suddenly after all of my models had activated there were somehow like 16 on the field. I never saw it coming.

[AvatarForm]

Try beginning small... it appears you are playing to win, rather than teaching this guy how to play.

Perhaps some starter games of [Chosen Master] + 1 minion...

Eg. Lillith + Mature Vs Your Master + Large base minion...

Similar to the way they used to teach 40k.

Alternatively, point the guy here to these forums and ask him to read up then come back to you.

[Raintar]

I would say Lady Justice. Her Swordplay 0 action can add 4CB to her total and suddenly your high defense becomes moot. She has riposte and can kill you on your turn with a lucky soulstone flip and not to mention she can nearly one shot you making her a dangerous adversary.

[Q'iq'el]

I would say Lady Justice. Her Swordplay 0 action can add 4CB to her total and suddenly your high defense becomes moot. She has riposte and can kill you on your turn with a lucky soulstone flip and not to mention she can nearly one shot you making her a dangerous adversary.

That's why Lilith's crew can typically debuff both Cb and Df. Lilith on her own isn't powerful enough to withstand anything and hit anyone in melee. But add Alluring, Disappear and Love to the mix and suddenly you counter most Df and Cb buffs around.

[Satyrwyld]

Try beginning small... it appears you are playing to win, rather than teaching this guy how to play.

Perhaps some starter games of [Chosen Master] + 1 minion...

Eg. Lillith + Mature Vs Your Master + Large base minion...

Similar to the way they used to teach 40k.

Alternatively, point the guy here to these forums and ask him to read up then come back to you.

The guy (quotemyname) has responded a couple times in this thread already... I'm generally an easygoing sort, but these aren't demo games. He's got several other opponents he beats on a routine basis. I give him feedback after each game. I let him pick point size and sometimes even my master. He can't beat me, specifically, and I'm looking to give him an edge, not patronize him. To recap:

The issue here is not that I'm getting discouraged. At all. Knowing that I keep getting my ass kicked by Satyr is really given me renewed interest in this game. (I won every other game I ever played against the rest of my friends just by rushing the field with Lilith). Going against the other neverborn masters, however has been quite difficult.

(snip)

So in short, what I'm really looking for here is less of a, "How to play lilith," and more of a, "What to do/not do against Pandora/Chompybits/Colette, etc."

Doesn't sound like someone who wants things watered down to hand him a win. As for me, I like a challenge, and I've been swapping masters to try and find one with a competitive disadvantage against Lilith.

[Raintar]

That's why Lilith's crew can typically debuff both Cb and Df. Lilith on her own isn't powerful enough to withstand anything and hit anyone in melee. But add Alluring, Disappear and Love to the mix and suddenly you counter most Df and Cb buffs around.

Yeah how do you counter it when she casts it as a 0 on her turn? Oh and good luck casting Love on a master, she'll have soulstones and you don't.

Alluring is a joke at range 3". If you're planning on staying 3" from Lady Justice and being safe with Alluring it's just not going to happen. You realize I can just walk and attack right? And if you're using it for the -DF you're sacrificing an attack with a master, and now you have 2 attacks vs Lady Justice's three. A fight you will lose.

Oh yeah and Justice has Riposte which can gg you on your turn and you rely on the fact that you have a high df which Justice negates with Swordplay Fate. LJ counters her in almost every way by being more beaty.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Raintar

[Q'iq'el]

No offense, but in that case you guys are asking a bit much.

If someone has no clue how to play a Master and always loses, it's easy to point him in right direction with a decent tactica article.

If someone is an accomplished player but has trouble with beating an even better one, especially in matchups that are not widely understood (Lilith isn't a very popular master anymore, as far as I can tell), then there's really no advise other than those:

1. Play more games.

2. Swap the crews from time to time.

If you play his Lilith and he plays your Collette/Pandora/Chompybits, he'll learn their weak points from how you counter them.

Personally I think Lilith has two big things going for her as a master - ability to negotiate terrain and ability to control melee combat.

The first is realised through special Abilities of her crew (Scout, Flight, Master of Malifaux, Brood etc.). These abilities allow you to spread the crew apart first and then converge it on single target very quickly, from multiple vectors, more or less regardless of terrain. This counters crews that have good AoE and still allows Lilith to gain local advantage.

If it seems there's not enough terrain on the table to hide and fully exploit these abilities, check again the recommendations in the manual and confront that with the table you play. I know making terrain is a cumbersome exercise few want to devote their time too, but having way too little and way too small terrain is the most common problem of gaming stores and clubs. Just consider the fact that the Rulebooks recommend roughly 18~36 3"x3" pieces of terrain on the table! (2~4 per square foot).

Many ranged and mobility crews become significantly less dominant if you play with proper amount of terrain.

Ability to control melee combat is something you have to be adaptive about. Every battle you have to consider the positioning, find weak spot in opponent's deployment and focus on his weakest link. Both Colette's and Pandora's crew can fall apart, from what I understand, if you overload crucial minis with damage and break the chain of synergies they have. Use abilities like Love, Knock Aside, Earthquake, Transposition and Alluring not only to give advantage to your crew, but also to change the positioning of opponent models in crucial moment. If you can get the model you want to beat out of range of protective abilities other models may provide and then debuff it on the top of that, there's little an opponent can do.

This is very general advice, because you cannot give anything more at such level of gameplay. It's not the crew he plays, it's not any individual trick - he simply has to outplay your Pandora/Colette/Dreamer.

If he plays Lilith as a straight-forward master with no tricks, it will be very hard to do. I think Lilith is neither straightforward nor simple. The difference is that with Colette or Pandora it's the Master who's tricky and player just choses the tricks he likes. Lilith requires the player to be tricky himself - to construct a situation opponent doesn't expect and cannot counter, even though he knows all your "straightforward" abilities.