Master Hamelin Idea

[JayBarlekamp]

I just had a thought about master hamelin. With the ease of gaining rats for him I thought something along thsese lines may be interesting:

Hire a terror tot, feed it a rat on the first turn gain blood token, grow. repeat on second turn. now you have a mature nephilim for the 4SS out-of-faction tot cost and the cost of 2 summond rats (or purchased if they are dirt cheap, but I doubt they are only 1SS, I haven't gotten my book yet.)

Of course this may all be illegal, as I don't have the exact wording of Hamelin's purchasing abilities. And, I may have missed something on the Nephilim's abilities but I think it works.

Does anyone think this would be a good tactic? or are Matures not so good without Lillith's guidance?

[ProdigalPunk]

Don't have the book, but it seems legal, with one little error that sort of makes it less appealing but still a decent deal. That error being Young to Mature requires 2 blood tokens, so you would not really be doing anything with the tot until turn 4, but at that point it would be a mature ready to rock.

[Rathnard]

A Terror tot would be 4SS. Assuming rats are 2SS each you need three of them for the 3 blood counters needed to grow the tot into a mature. That's a total of 10SS for a Mature Nephilim, which is how much the beast costs anyway.

Of course it does get you a very nasty minion in a crew that couldn't normally take one, but I don't think it's a particularly broken combo.

[tenabrae]

If he's as he was in beta his crew couldn't contain the young or mature neph. Probably worth checking the wording on if he's now a "can't hire", or "crew can't contain"

[thaehl]

Yep a total of three bloods are required, as well as rats are 3SS

[JayBarlekamp]

haven't seen the summoning abilities, but isn't it fairly easy to get the rats through summons? If they're just going to be there to sac anyway it may be decent.

I wan't looking for a broken or overpowered combo, just a way to add something that the crew wouldn't normally have.

what happens if I spend the third turn getting the blood token from the opposing crew? if I use the mature spell at the beginning of round 4 do I still have a 1 and 0 action left or do i have 2 (1) and a 0 action left as it is now a new model (I don't have my book with me to see the wording to know if it is a sac and summon.)

Jay

[HandsomeDan]

I don't have the book on me but I feel pretty certain that the rats are 2 SS. Their stats are so bad they probably aren't worth it outside the context of Hamelin lists though, even for that low cost. For those who haven't seen Rising Powers yet, rats regenerate themselves as long as they are close to a rat catcher. No flip is required. If something dies near a catcher, a new rat shows up to devour it. So this could be a really serious exploit, but it all depends on the exact wording of some rules I don't have in front of me right now. If it really is that easy we can probably expect some errata-ing soon because I doubt something like this was intended. Been wrong before though. I'll check the rules when I get home.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HandsomeDan

[nilus]

The other thing to consider is Grow is not an easy spell to pull off, and Hamelin does not start with cards like other masters do.

Its possible to do and a valid combo but it takes 6 SS worth of rats plus a terror tot(with I dont recall if its 2 or 3 SS) and 3 turns of doing nothing else.

Valid, yes. Effective, maybe not so much.

Err Edit: Misread The Void, you do start with a hand of cards your first turn. You just don't draw new ones the same way as everyone else starting at turn 2

Edited August 12, 2010 by nilus

[HandsomeDan]

But that's the point right? You don't have to spend 2 SS per rat since when you kill one, another one comes back. As long as there's a rat catcher nearby. Or does a tot sacrifice a killed model to gain a blood token?

Of course that presents another bad scenario, since it means your rat catcher isn't keeping pace with the rest of the force. So more points tied up not helping you out.

Still if it all checks out, it seems too much fun not to try.

[ProdigalPunk]

I don't have the book on me but I feel pretty certain that the rats are 2 SS. Their stats are so bad they probably aren't worth it outside the context of Hamelin lists though, even for that low cost. For those who haven't seen Rising Powers yet, rats regenerate themselves as long as they are close to a rat catcher. No flip is required. If something dies near a catcher, a new rat shows up to devour it. So this could be a really serious exploit, but it all depends on the exact wording of some rules I don't have in front of me right now. If it really is that easy we can probably expect some errata-ing soon because I doubt something like this was intended. Been wrong before though. I'll check the rules when I get home.

McM can turn a 1 ss model into a 10 ss model 4 times out of 5 on turn 1. If he wants to spend 3 turns of probably the tots and rat catchers time, plus maybe an initial investment of another 2 ss, and hope he gets the cards he needs to pull it off, I don't think I would call it a serious exploit. The time and energy going into pulling it off in my opinion would make up the ss difference.

@Jay everytime your little pokemon evolves ie tot to young you replace the model so the new model has the remainder of actions, has any wounds taken or effects on the old model. That being said, you should be able to get the Mature on the 3rd turn, he would just be out of actions, but full and ready to go on turn 4.

[dakrulz55]

but in actuallity you only need one rat. if something dies within 8in of hamlin instead of dropping models or counters you get another rat, so if you kill a rat with a terror tot another rat pops up. also you run the risk of running out of cards when you start cheating for your own models as hamlins way of drawing is extremely limited.

Edited August 13, 2010 by dakrulz55

[Ciaran]

but in actuallity you only need one rat. if something dies within 8in of hamlin instead of dropping models or counters you get another rat

That right there means you have to provide three rats for the terror tot, and not rely on the tot killing a rat to get a blood counter then another rat being summoned.

[LastDinosaur]

That right there means you have to provide three rats for the terror tot, and not rely on the tot killing a rat to get a blood counter then another rat being summoned.

It doesn't mean that. Blood Counters are never dropped in the first place.

Depending on how the Marshals decide for the Rule of Equivalency to be interpreted the Tot-growing tactica may or may not be possible.

Even if deemed possible I'd never consider it a good tactic though..

Growing tots to Young takes 9+ masks.. I think I'd much rather use every high Mask I get with Hamelin to trigger the Pipes..

[Ciaran]

You're right. The rule for Hamelin says "The model does not generate a counter of any kind." It doesn't say making a counter drop (as in it hitting the ground).

There is no ruling on the Rule of Equivalency necessary to say that only one effect can happen from one Malifaux rat's death (due to its base size). As the Nephilim in hand to hand is likely to be the closest model it will be its blood counter that is created, not a rat from Hamelin, or any of the other models that can be taken that can create one.

It's a moot point as Hamelin's rule supersedes the Rule of Equivalency. It allows for no counter to be dropped.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Ciaran