Strategies with Nephilims

[Snake_Pliskenn]

Well, with Lilith's starter box, a blister of Young Nephs and the Querubin, this is my army for the match I have this saturday:

-Lilith, Mother of Monsters.

-Terror Tots x3 (9 SS)

-Mature Neph (10 SS)

-Querubin (2 SS).

I have 8 SS in the pool. I know Lilith burns SS. But I also know this list has not punch enough. I am thinking about some changes:

-Lilith.

-Terror Tots x2 (6 SS).

-Young Neph (6 SS).

-Mature Neph (10 SS).

-Querubin (2 SS).

This way, however, I only have a 5 SS pool... Is this pool very poor for Lilith?

Strategies and tips are welcome!

[Q'iq'el]

Haven't played with the Cherub yet (waiting to be painted), but the below is my experience:

1. You want Lilith to get into the combat fast. She's likely going to get most of your actual kills, most of the Blood Counters you'll need and at any rate the first of your kills.

2. The above means the initial "punch" of the crew itself means somewhat less than its mobility. Lilith is so fast Mature and Young Nephilim have hard time keeping up with her, even though they fly.

3. Mature Nephilim are fragile (Df4, very hard to get Cover Saves due to ht3 and nothing but Defensive Stance to boost the defenses, which in turn slows them down badly) and you want to keep them safe until opponent is engaged, so that you can use their full hitting potential.

From this experience I'd field either your crew #1 or something yet different (which I'll explain second).

Firstly, In such a crew as your #1 you want to sprint with Tots to remain close to Lilith and you hide Mature until the battle is engaged (hopefully you'll be able to transposition him into place later on). As soon as Lilith gains a Blood Counter or two, you grow the Terror Tots into Young Nephilim (you absolutely need control cards to cheat fate for that) and bring the Mature Nephilim in. From my experience, Lilith will be burning her Soulstones early to get the kills and to survive more dangerous shots/spells thrown at her. Her crew will mostly be hiding (Terror Tots nearby, Mature Nephilim in the backyard, behind something big).

Do not fall into trap of using Blood from Stone. It's a good ability if you have Soulstones to spare near the end, to bring back one of your more powerful Nephilim and there are few easy targets left around. But early on it is much better to spend Soulstones on ensuring a kill - you get both the Blood Counter and you actually weaken the opponent.

The second option I like, is to go only with Tots and Young Nephilim. If you have 2 Matures that option is even better (I don't have 2 yet, but that's because I want to experiment with other options first, like Doppelganger or Waldgeists) - you use Lilith's first Blood Counters to mature your Young Nephilim, as soon as they hit combat (so the Mature Nephilim appears directly into combat) and if all goes well, you'll have more counters to turn Tots into Young Nephilim later.

In such scenario you sent Lilith and Young Nephilim forward and hide the Tots (sprint in after Young Nephilims mature, or earlier if there's need for help in combat).

Because Young Nephilim are actually pretty solid fighters, you'll probably burn less Soulstones at the beginning in this team. Lilith will still need something to brush off shots/spells, but since she'll be finishing off targets weakened by Young Nephilim, she may not need Soulstones to buff her own damage.

The reason why I particularly like the second solution is that it not only protects Mature Nephilim from early focused fire perfectly (it's not on the board! ), but also (contrary to what one may think at the first) because it is easier to mature a Young Nephilim, than to grow a Terror Tot. It's always harder to meet high suit requirement (if you don't have the card in your hand you can't reliably pull the grow out) than to get 2 Blood Counters you need to mature.

Last but not least, I think you'll need Soulstones more than you'll need that extra Young Nephilim or Mature Nephilim early in the game. Just make sure you keep the cards needed to Cheat Fate when growing/maturing and keep a lower :masks or two for sprints as well.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Major_Gilbear]

That's a helpful writeup Q'ig'el, thank you!

If you fancy expanding it further, maybe discuss the utility of Illusionary Forest and the addition of Waldgeists to the crew? Also, the utility of the various Totem options available? For example, is 4SS worthwhile on a Student of Conflict if you can give a Young or Mature Nephilim Fast?

They are likely future expansions to this sort of crew afterall...

[Melnibonean]

I've had pretty good success with Lilith.

I use the same list as your #1 list in 25pt games and in 30pt games I add a Young Nephlim.

My main tactic is to use Lilith and the Mature Neph as a team. I move up and keep them hidden as well as I can. Companion the Mature Neph and use it's Diving Attack and Liliths Master of Malifaux to come out of hiding and hit your opponent hard. I use the rest of the crew to try and split up the opposition and tie them down. Then I use the Lilith/Mature combo to take out unsupported or isolated crew members.

The Mature Neph only has Df4 but so what? By the time he dies you should have enough blood counters and a Young Neph ready to mature into another one.

This hide and hit tactic is also a good method to achieve your strategies & scemes. Because the crew is pretty fast you can keep away from your opponent reasonably easily. If your strategy allows it, try to get them chasing you all over the board and draw their attention away from thier own strategies & scemes.

So... Get them to chase you. Isolate them. Kill them.

As easy as that!

P.S. The Major beat my post... Waldgeist. Now this is interesting. I want one of these beasties. It will make the Illusionary forrest another dangerous tool in Liliths arsenal. The Waldgiest makes the forrest itself capable of inflicting hurts.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Melnibonean

[Japache]

Also remember that Lilith's range for all spells is the same & reaches a good distance.

You can effective run Lilith & the Cherub as a solid melee unit & run your tots & nephilim seperately as long as they are w/i range of Lilith's spells. Really 2 seperate flanking forces.

From one side Lilith can use Earthquake & Illusionary Forest as "buffs" - move them closer to your nephilim or allow your nephilim to get closer.

If you hide anything, then everything will just hit Lilith, hence burning through soulstones. If everthing flanks, then as mentioned by Melnibonean, your opponent will split forces or even better bunch together for a nice whirling death.

[Q'iq'el]

I haven't even tried the Cherub yet, so I can't speak about other totems, but I feel the main role of a totem in her crew is to free up her APs by casting one of her spells for her. Nephilim are generally melée experts and move faster than average, so I don't think they need Student of Conflict.

I face Nico most often, but also Tina and the Guild sometimes. Against a shooty crew Illusionary Forest is a mere LoS block/Cover Save - much needed, but not really creative.

Against Nicodem the forest is more interesting. His crew is generally slow and to cast the forest on the top of Punk Zombies almost nullifies whatever little movement they have. I can only imagine how much more is the Waldgeist going to hurt them if they get caught in such a peril (still painting mine so no actual experience)

Having a Totem to cast the forest where you want it means you can get off Alluring before your charge or whirlwind. I've noticed on the forums people treat Alluring as a mediocre defensive spell. IMHO it's a very solid offensive aura with secondary deffensive effect. If you face Nico it's almost compulsory, when trying to hit his Bolstered Punk Zombies. In most other cases reducing typical Df of 5 to 3 is pure joy and great buff to Lilith damage (in the end it means moving Combat Total by 2 in Lilith's favour and that often helps her go high enough to be able to cheat damage flip). .

[Ropetus]

The question to ask with Alluring is though: Is it more effective to cast this (risking it might fail/eat a control card) and make your Strikes harder to dodge and maybe more damaging (in case the Df penalty takes the hit to a higher degree) than just simply use the AP to make one more melee Strike? I would imagine that with her on all Dmg flips an extra Strike would be better most of the time.

The situations where it might be useful would be when facing an model with ridiculous Df (7 or 8) and not too many Wd so that one hit will kill it (Bolstered Punk Zombies are a good example with their Df7 and Wd6). Of course if you have 3-4 models in your melee range and are about to use Whirling Death then casting this is a no brainer (although you're playing against a poor player if they let that happen).

However, using it just to reduce Df5 to Df3 is a waste IMO since it is still quite an easy hit and you could as well get an extra Strike in.

Charge protection is nice but Lilith is the prime model in the game who can easily allow herself to get Charged with her insane Df score and Disappear trigger (at least if she has some Stones remaining).

-Ropetus

[Snake_Pliskenn]

Well, the main problem of the Querub is his lower Ca. This force you to keep a high card (and the suit needed) to cast the Illusionary Forest. You can do it, but it is hard and it cost a good card.

I have only checked the Querub, but in my opinion, the best use for this winged creature is casting Love when Lilith and their children are in CQC. However, I have serious doubts about the Querub. I have to play with him, definitely.

On the other hand, I have found the explanation about the Nephs very useful Q'iq'el. Actually, I have been comparing the Young Nephs' profiles against other factions' fighters. And, well, it is true: they are pretty solid.

-Lilith

-Young Neph (x 2)

-Mature (x 1)

SS- 22/25

SS pool- 7

What do you think about it?

Oh, and some nasty questions for some dirty tricks!

1) Transposition, after the Errata, says something like target two models, then switch their possitions. The question is about the spell's range. It is 12 inches. My doubt is: Could Lilith point an enemy 12 inches at North and switch possition with an ally 12 inches at South? And, if it is yes, how much Wp flips are required?

2) Has Earthquake a trick or something? I think it is the worst Lilith's ability.

3) What do you think about this:

-I have a Terror Tot separated by 2 inches of a Mature Neph.

-It is my turn. I activate Lilith and her Mature as a companion (She is at 6'' of the other Nephs).

-Ok, here we go: I have a really good card with the Mask suit ready to cast Transposition. I have enough soulstones to increase the flip, by the way. So, I decide to "bring" my foe to the kitchen.

-I move Lilith 6'' ahead and cast successfully Transposition over, f.i., the enemy Master. I switch his possition with my Terror Tot, which is at range. Now I can fall back with Lilith (avoiding nasty ranged attacks) and my Mature Neph is ready for a boxing exhibition with (he!) 3 attacks at range of 2''!

What do you think about this?

[Ropetus]

Well, the main problem of the Querub is his lower Ca. This force you to keep a high card (and the suit needed) to cast the Illusionary Forest. You can do it, but it is hard and it cost a good card.

Uh?

Lilith has Ca5 :masks , Cherub has Ca5 :masks and both can use Soulstones. Where is the lower Ca?

The Cherub is a great include with Lilith as it basicly gives Lilith an additional Casting each round. She has a spell repertoire that has something worthwhile to cast every single round. Using Transposition or Illusionary Forest with the Cherub means Lilith can use one more AP to smackdown her opponents, espacially when using Companion to activate Lilith right after. Love is an ok spell as well, -3 Cb could as well say "Cannot make Strikes" when facing Lilith and her Df8.

About Transposition: Yes, according to the errata you target two models, both of which are within 12" of the caster. There is no limit on the distance between the targets. Both targets will get to flip a resist duel and even one success means the spell will fizzle. Your proposed scenario is indeed possible, although it's always risky to cast resistable spells against Soulstone users with Lilith's low Ca.

I've seen Earthquake used as a way to give some serious headstart for your Crew. Casting it once with the Cherub and twice with Lilith on the first turn will give every model in your crew 6" of free movement (don't forget to voluntarily fail the resists). Lilith can easily catch up with her Wk6 and Fast. Especially useful in scenarios like Treasure Hunt.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

The question to ask with Alluring is though: Is it more effective to cast this (risking it might fail/eat a control card) and make your Strikes harder to dodge and maybe more damaging (in case the Df penalty takes the hit to a higher degree) than just simply use the AP to make one more melee Strike? I would imagine that with her on all Dmg flips an extra Strike would be better most of the time.

As I said, depends on the opponent. When you face a crew which is Hard to Wound 1 across the board (i.e. Nicodem), Great Sword's advantage is nullified. Then they get Bolstered and you won't hit them without the debuff.

It also depends on what you want to do. Against a single opponent you're already in base contact with, 3 strikes are better. However if you are about to charge in? Or when you want to do the Whirling Death?

Sure, you can do one more strike, against one more model, but it's better to do 6 damage to each of these models in a single strike.

If you deal with really killy mob, like Punk Zombies, charge in 2" from them, after casting Alluring, and suddenly the perspective of doing 6 damage in single strike and NOT getting charged in return by the remaining zombies is very appealing.

[cut]

However, using it just to reduce Df5 to Df3 is a waste IMO since it is still quite an easy hit and you could as well get an extra Strike in.

I should make it clear perhaps that I never argued using it in 1:1 situations. It was in context of charges and Whirling Death - that's why it is important to free up that one AP to be able to cast it, rather than spend the AP on Illusionary Forest or such.

Charge protection is nice but Lilith is the prime model in the game who can easily allow herself to get Charged with her insane Df score and Disappear trigger (at least if she has some Stones remaining).

-Ropetus

Since you agree with me that Bolstered Zombie Punks are a great example of a model you'd use it against, these guys are Cb9 with buffs. You do not get much out of Df8, when your primary opponent has paired weapons, Cb one point higher and can Flurry too.

As I said, Alluring is situational offensive spell with secondary defensive bonus. To be able to rely on it you need a Totem, because there are spells that'd take priority to it and if you want Alluring+Charge or Alluring+Whirling Death, you need someone else to cast these spells (Doppelganger isn't bad solution either, but considerably more expensive).

Edited June 23, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Melnibonean]

One thing about the Cherub is to keep it away from Lilith at least 5" or 6" otherwise any blasts directed at Lilith could kill it easily. It's not an offensive critter but if it's used correctly it can be a very supportive element to her.

[Ropetus]

I'm quite certain not all your enemies are Bolstered Punk Zombies.

My point was that it's a good spell in the right situation (when facing Bolstered Punk zombies) but it's not a great spell you would spam every opportunity. Against most models the buff is unneeded and another whack could just bring more mileage.

Also I don't see the scenario with Alluring + Whirling Death. Your opponent would be a fool to try swarming Lilith with a bunch of models and feed her Whirling Death. Therefore most of the time she would likely need to Walk before Whirling which leads to no chance for Alluring that turn. Maybe if you have activated last, Walked into a bunch of models and then won initiative next round but that seems quite a risky move for me.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

Let's not turn that tread into "why Alluring is good/bad" argument as it's OT. As I've originally said, I value the spell higher than average on this forums so there's no surprise you don't agree with me.

All I can say is that I dismissed it completely at first, and then realized it is one of her more useful spells. It comes from practice and that is subjective to say the least.

It helps me kill things with fewer strikes - I see you think it's crazy, but fewer strikes mean fewer control cards spend, fewer soulstones burned etc. It's sometimes better to cast an easy to get out spell and then kill something with one solid strike (especially if you are low on good cards in your hand and that happens surprisingly often to me).

Secondly, I do not fight any of these perfect opponents that never mess up. Sometimes they have to bunch up on Lilith because it's their last hope to get their treasure back before the game ends, sometimes they simply gamble they can kill her before she strikes back. Never mind all these cases where Nicodem raised 3+ Mindless Zombies just to cover his tracks or when opponent's crew got herded between a wall and Illusionary forest on their way to objectives.

In other words game is more than theory. Alluring works for me. I want to have free AP to be able to cast it when I want it. I obviously don't want to cast it every turn, but the point I originally made is Lillith brings the Totem to free up one of her APs - either to do attacks or to cast more spells. Alluring is an example of a spell you'd usually not cast, unless you actually can free that 1 AP.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Q'iq'el
Shortened and simplified the post as it's a bit OT.

[Snake_Pliskenn]

A very important question comes right here!

Can I combine the blood counters of two Nephilims to mature them? After reading the errata, I think the answer is YES, but I would appreciate a solid confirmation .

By the way, I apologize for my confussion. I read the Querub's profile wrong! It is true it is a useful addition to a Lilith's crew. But the matter is this: Lilith is really good improving her Control Hand with her special rule Rush of Magic. So, one of the most useful Totems for her could be Primordial Magic, which can help her to have an even BETTER hand than the opponent.

What do you think?

[Major_Gilbear]

@Snake Pliskenn:

Yes to your first question.

I agree with your second point that the Primordial Magic would be pretty handy. At the start of turn two, you'd discard your previous hand (7 cards), draw eight and drop one, and then flip to see who starts - you'd then know 30% of your full deck before you even move a model. If you're reasonable at keeping an eye on what's been played, that's pretty helpful all on its own and doesn't require any special tricks or actions.

Add in a Doppelganger in bigger games to help you get the initiative too...

[Q'iq'el]

Is there anything I have missed in the errata?

The one I have says: "This model or 1 friendly Nephilim within 6", discards 2 Blood Couner..."

The "1" part clearly points that both counters must have from a single friendly Nephilim, no combining.

[Aldyhide]

Despite how over-complicated most players make it out to be, playing Lilith comes down to a simple formula:

1.Move into charge range from behind Cover (Illusionary forest.)

2. Charge

3. Smash, Face.

4. Retreat if you will be within range of any spells or ranged attacks during your opponents activation, or repeat #3 if more models are within range.

5. Use blood counters acquired to make your Nephilim bigger if possible.

Q was correct in that Blood from stone is not a good idea early on.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, there's a problem with charging from behind Illusionary forest, even if that is a temporary situation.

At least until the LoS rules get revised, Illusionary Forest blocks sight and is not "covering" terrain. Lillith's "Master of Malifaux" rule as it is worded now is completely useless. "Cover" she can ignore when charging ammounts to ht1 and ht2 walls and such - terrain with "covering" characteristic, which wouldn't block her LoS to begin with (so the rule isn't needed at all).

Her ability to see through cover does not let her see through obscuring terrain, so if she's more than 3" deep in the forest, she can't charge out of it or charge someone else inside (with more than 3" of forest between them that is).

Illusionary forest, as Wyrd Sketch explained it (can't look for the link now, I'll add it later if you need), does block LOS to objects behind it even if it is less than 3". It simply doesn't allow one to hide while remaining inside it.

[Aldyhide]

Well, there's a problem with charging from behind Illusionary forest, even if that is a temporary situation.

At least until the LoS rules get revised, Illusionary Forest blocks sight and is not "covering" terrain. Lillith's "Master of Malifaux" rule as it is worded now is completely useless. "Cover" she can ignore when charging ammounts to ht1 and ht2 walls and such - terrain with "covering" characteristic, which wouldn't block her LoS to begin with (so the rule isn't needed at all).

Her ability to see through cover does not let her see through obscuring terrain, so if she's more than 3" deep in the forest, she can't charge out of it or charge someone else inside (with more than 3" of forest between them that is).

Illusionary forest, as Wyrd Sketch explained it (can't look for the link now, I'll add it later if you need), does block LOS to objects behind it even if it is less than 3". It simply doesn't allow one to hide while remaining inside it.

I know this, that's why I posted "move into charge range behind cover."

The forest can be moved by Lilith at any time during her activation can it not?

[Q'iq'el]

I know this, that's why I posted "move into charge range behind cover."

The forest can be moved by Lilith at any time during her activation can it not?

Ahh, my misunderstanding. It's all because I'm so bend on not having to move it with her anymore (thanks to the Totem) that I stopped thinking that way. I'd rather spend the AP on something else.

[Aldyhide]

Ahh' date=' my misunderstanding. It's all because I'm so bend on not having to move it with her anymore (thanks to the Totem) that I stopped thinking that way. I'd rather spend the AP on something else. [/quote']

Well, I would too, that's why I'd just have the Cherub cast it, then activate before Lilith, move it and let Lilith charge. of course I probably ought to be quiet since i play Zbags anyway.

[Major_Gilbear]

Is there anything I have missed in the errata?

The one I have says: "This model or 1 friendly Nephilim within 6", discards 2 Blood Couner..."

The "1" part clearly points that both counters must have from a single friendly Nephilim, no combining.

Reading back, I think I may have misunderstood the OP's question...? :hmmmm:

I thought he was asking if blood counters can be combined, which they can - they are counters, so when a model carrying any dies, they are dropped and can be picked up by another Nephilim (or any other model which is allowed to use them). See here for clarification of that.

If the OP meant that can a Young Nephiilim discard a Blood counter, and also have another Nephilim discard a Blood counter within 6" to get Mature off, then you're right and no, it can't. All the Blood counters being discarded for Mature must be discarded by the same model. If the Mature spell fails, the Blood counters are not discarded however.

Hopefully, that's covered it all this time!

[Raintar]

Youngs are IMO the best Nephilum. They cost almost half of the Mature Nephilum and they are almost as fast, still have high Cb (6), and are melee experts and keep the really good Flay trigger for 6 points. They also have high wounds and average defense which is also good.

[Melnibonean]

Youngs are IMO the best Nephilum. They cost almost half of the Mature Nephilum and they are almost as fast, still have high Cb (6), and are melee experts and keep the really good Flay trigger for 6 points. They also have high wounds and average defense which is also good.

Agreed.

The mature, although it's a pretty good killing machine, just can't stand up to a stong attack. Df4 is a real downer for such an expensive model. After a recent tourny I'll be playing two (or more) Young Neph in future and maturing them if I need to.

The combo of: Melee Expert, Df5, Cb6 & Flay is pretty nasty for a 6ss model.