Viki brawl crew.

[Veskit2k]

Hey everyone,

Currently me and my friend are playing 45ss scrap crews. We decided to start playing some brawls just so we can each get a new crew started. He plays pandora right now and is going to add lilith for some melee power. I am currently running the following viki crew:

Viki's (0ss)

Student of Conflict (3ss)

Convict Gunslinger (5ss)

3xRonin (5e, 15ss total)

Taelor (8ss)

Hans (8ss)

with 6ss left over for what have you.

I am not sure where to go with this crew. I figure I have two options. One, to not add another master and use the additional 10ss to add Hamelin (for some much needed magic) or some additional melee power with johan, bishop, or misaki. I was also thinking, since my friend is doing a large neverborn crew, I should pick up the Perdita box to get some extra shooting power; and high wp models to take care of Pandora's stuff. Problem is I am not sure if I want to part with those 5ss just to add another master.

What do you guys think?

[Serigala]

In another thread it has been discussed whether the Viktorias can join with another faction in a brawl without 1) paying the extra 5SS for the Viks (which I think you allude to in your post) and 2) being limited to 2 mercenaries. Unless this has been resolved you might want to be wary about adding in a new faction.

I am in the same situation but think that I will fare better with the extra 10 SS , making sure I have enough Ronin to bring back one or more of the Viks during the game if I lose one.

If you do step up to a brawl then you can actually take 2 Convict Gunslingers. This with Hans must give you the 2nd best shooting of all the crews out there, so your choice of adding the Ortegas for their shooting seems a little redundant.

I haven't played Hamelin yet, but he seems to have some nice spells/abilities so that is the way I am heading with my crew.

[enderwiggin]

What if you classify it as Viktoria leading the crew and the other master joining them?

I don't have Viktoria's card in front of me, but it sounds like a potential work-around, even if a bit shady.

[Ropetus]

What if you classify it as Viktoria leading the crew and the other master joining them?

That sounds like bending the rules and would make the entire rule obsolete. The point of the rule is obviously that if you take Viktorias and another Master it will cost you 5 SS from your pool. Otherwise you could always say that the other Master "joins" (which is not a common term in the game) the Viktorias and ignore that ruling.

It also makes no sense to not apply Viks and Somer's special crew composing rules during Brawls as well. Not doing so leads to some really idiotic consequences (like So'mer hiring a Desolation Engine) which are clearly not intended that way.

After all, this is not a Games Workshop game designed for those "Rules by the letter" type of gamers. As the erratas have already shown us the correct way to play a rule is most often the one that makes most sense (and this will be in the next errata if someone makes a fuss about it...) and not the one you get by bending the wordings.

My 2 cents.

-Ropetus

[enderwiggin]

That sounds like bending the rules and would make the entire rule obsolete. The point of the rule is obviously that if you take Viktorias and another Master it will cost you 5 SS from your pool. Otherwise you could always say that the other Master "joins" (which is not a common term in the game) the Viktorias and ignore that ruling.

It also makes no sense to not apply Viks and Somer's special crew composing rules during Brawls as well. Not doing so leads to some really idiotic consequences (like So'mer hiring a Desolation Engine) which are clearly not intended that way.

After all, this is not a Games Workshop game designed for those "Rules by the letter" type of gamers. As the erratas have already shown us the correct way to play a rule is most often the one that makes most sense (and this will be in the next errata if someone makes a fuss about it...) and not the one you get by bending the wordings.

My 2 cents.

-Ropetus

Firstly, I'm just letting you know that I am responding in kind.

If you did not actually mean to write so aggressively, then please write more neutrally from now on. I, for one, can't tell if you're trying to be a troll or genuinely helpful.

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There's no need for such a snarky tone when you're not saying anything new. I had already set the precedent in the post regarding the potential tactic as shady from the beginning. I don't need you coming along behind me to effectively regurgitate what I already said.

I'm fully aware of how RAW can get the various games into tangled messes. However, as the past examples in multiple games can attest it just so happens that errata and FAQ writers actually like people who nitpick rules because a living set of errata is the quickest way to fix things that are broken or considered as such, in the game. This, in turn, cuts down on arguments with issues that suffer from the grey areas of rules because we will then have a resolved situation.

You did say as much, but you (and now I) are just stating the obvious and it had nothing to do with my previous post; Since I did not say anything about the Errata/Faq accepting such a tactic for any length of time (if it was even possible in the first place as I alluded to) I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

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My point about Viktoria leading the crew is that I have often on these boards seen people referring to masters as leading the crew/faction they've chosen. A player must be said to be playing some sort of crew as the majority right? Otherwise, you'd have the "idiotic consequences" (to borrow one of your phrases) in some cases of a Viktoria crew with another Master from a different faction being forced to pay extra SS's out for hiring Mercs. Or even them being limited to merely two in the Brawls. However we both know that doesn't make sense either if you have a Outcast crew to begin with... You've gotta be hiring into a main crew somehow.

Like I also said though, I did/do not have Viktorias card in front of me, so there wasn't a way I could reference the actual written rules.

So thanks for the input, but your two cents was not needed.

Edited June 22, 2010 by enderwiggin
Spelling error.

[Wodschow]

It is still beyond me why the Viktorias (who does not have their own cache!!(!!!)) have to pay 5 SS to be taken with another master from a different faction.

Also the whole thing about hiring combined faction crews in Brawls is in a real mess and wasn't cleared up at all in the two threads concerning it that I have followed (no official answers).

While at it I also see no reason that Leveticus (the pragmatic man that he is) shouldn't be unable to work with anyone but Ramos in Brawls.. He's the only Mercenary master and fluffish his services are for all to hire...

@Ropetus: I think you're exaggerating a bit too much, there's several choices within the factions that could be categorized as 'idiotic consequences'. Why would for instance Ramos be able to summon Gamins? That's totally unfluffy. (And why would said Gamins made from ice burst into cogs once they die, perfectly suited for making metal spiders?)

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Okay sorry about that rant.

If you house rule it and say that a combined force including Viktoria can include any number of Mercenaries without paying out of faction cost for them (RAW says no, logic says yes) then:

From the Viktorias point of view a second master would be an attractive addition, you lose 5 SS but gain the other masters cache back. (So it's like paying 1 SS to upgrade your considered Hamelin to Zoraida, a similar but much better caster than the Ratcatcher himself).

Since you said you'd be playing against a combined Neverborn army it's probably more fun to find some other Master than Zoraida though.

The two Masters I would consider the most with the Viks are:

1- Rasputina - considerable cache, magic and (!!) December's Touch (which will affect both Viktorias thanks to Fates Entwined). A totem and maybe a Gamin and she doesn't need much more.

2- McMourning - high cache, matches speed well and I think they would compliment one another in the CC department. The totem and maybe a canine and you should be fine.

Most Masters would add to the Viktorias I think (It's only ridicolous when looking at it the other way round (adding a Master with an effective -5 cache just doesn't compare to adding another Master from the same Faction with their cache intact)). Just make a decision as to what the focus of the list should be, some Masters (Ramos, Marcus and Pandora to name some) work alot better with certain minions (Beasts, Constructs and Woes to continue from before) that you might not want to include with your Viks.

Some Masters also allow for minions that your Viks would benefit from, Rotten Belles luring enemies to the Viks? Yes please! Anything that makes the enemy fall back so that you can activate the otherwise quite rare Sisters in Victory spell might also be a fun addition.

[Veskit2k]

I guess there was more confusion regarding the viki's brawl status than I thought. I figured that brawls are just mixing two crews that can be mixed and so long as you pay for the 5ss any crew can fight along side a viki mercenary crew.

I looked into it a little more and only more questions emerged (namely from reading the rules on page 96). First, if the Viki's do join another factions brawl crew (like say Ramos) then would that be a outcast or archanist crew (or both). Second, if it does count as a outcast crew to some extent then any number of mercenaries can be hired without any extra cost (first bullet in the minion section on page 96). If that is the case then the viki's would be able to join any faction for 5ss and can bring any number of mercenaries at normal cost.

But I figure this is the biggest issue that needs addressing by one of the rule guru's.

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And to Wodscow,

I was actually considering Resputina as well. I like both her and Perdita's models so I intend to eventually get both, but it was just a question of what would be a good crew to counter a Pandora/Lilith combo. I figured the high wp of the Ortega's would essentially make his Pandora crew less effective (that and make it easier to pass the moral checks on Lilith's brood). But the frozen heart aura and December's touch would take care of all those moral duels and add some much needed armor to the viki's (that and the awesome amount of spell output is always welcome). Question is should I just pack more mercs in as well or would it be more effective to add some extra gamin, or even a golem.

[Iamwyrd]

Ok so imo I feel that when you bring the vics in a brawl you don't actually pick who is joining who. You bring them with whom you want, you lose 5ss, then you can bring what you want from either faction, because the masters would bring their own crew how they want. And if teamed up they would discuss who they would bring. Ex. You bring lady j and perdita. You can only bring guild models and 2 mercs. If you bring the vics and Leveticus, you can only hire outcasts. So intertwine the two crews, ex. Lady j and the vics, both worlds should come into affect. So you can bring anything from both crews with no limits cause even though lady j says 2 mercs the vics say only mercs. So they would meet halfway. Imo because you have one of both worlds (factions). But that's just how I see it. Either way there is no way to get rid of the vics neg 5ss. Because they are brought at same time not lady j joins the vics.

[ProdigalPunk]

I think the wording of the Viks join the crew is intentional. They way I read it you have a non-Outcast crew and then hire the viks on. This does not make for a Other Faction/Outcast hybrid crew but more an other faction crew with the Viks joining it, so the two mercenary rule would still apply.

Fluff wise I think the 5 SS is suppose to represent your "main" master hiring the Viks. Rules wise I think that they decided masters are worth 10 ss (hence the additional 10 if you drop one), how ever with the Viks you get two free masters instead of one which they decided has a value of roughly 15 SS.

Edit: Oh to the original poster, I would keep it an all Outcast crew and take the extra 10 SS for Hamlin.

Edited June 23, 2010 by ProdigalPunk
to actually answer the question

[Wodschow]

@ProdigalPunk:

But if the Viks are really worth the 5 extra SS that would mean that they should be unbalanced in Scraps, shouldn't it? You get an extra Master there aswell.. ("100% more Master" even compared to 50% more during Brawls)

Each Viktoria is considerably weaker than your average Master though so I think it's a bit moot point, fluffwise it makes sense to pay more, but I don't think it's worth it ruleswise.

Also as you said there's nothing in the RAW that suggests you're allowed to bring more than two mercenaries in a Brawl if you hire the Viktorias.

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Frozen Heart won't help you much against Pandora, she attacks Wp, but this is not the same as Morale (Terrifying and similar effects).

Blasts are a good way to cause Pandora damage though as it circumvents her defensive abilities. Lilith isn't good news for Rasputina though and I think it'll be an uphill struggle to be honest with Viks/Raspy against Lilith/Pandora.

Still not that experienced in Malifaux so thankfully I might be wrong

I think a totem and one or two Gamin would be enough for Rasputina to use most of her tricks and keeping your crew mostly Outcast'ish (though as discussed this might not even be allowed, but if it isn't that means there's no way to expand a Viktoria crew naturally to Brawl size, thus I suggest you house it and says it's fine).

[ProdigalPunk]

The lack of the cache is much more apparent in a scrap then it is in a brawl, so the difference in the price is made up for there. The jump from 8 to 10 soulstones allowed is not as significant as the cache the other master would bring to the brawl, hence they need to even it out with the minus 5 cache.

[enderwiggin]

I think he was referring to the propensity of Brawls having two Masters per side, while Scraps generally just being a one-on-one (master-wise).

[Arcadies]

Ok, I would like to apologize beforehand if I'm stating something thats already been said in the thread. I looked over it but I didn't see where anyone had actually checked what the rules said. There is no question about it and I think this is another case of where people are imagining rules that aren't there. I really don't see why people are getting confused about this.

First off, when you hire a crew, you have to pick a faction first. In a brawl, you can hire a master from the faction you selected or a master with the MERCENARY characteristic. If you pick Outcasts you can hire Viktoria, Som'er, and Levi in scraps. In brawls, you can ONLY hire Viktoria and Som'er. On top of that, it would also reduce your soulstones by 5. Viktoria's "For Money" does not state anywhere that you can hire masters from any faction. It states that she may join a crew with any other master in a brawl. Please note that Levi is the ONLY master with the Mercenary characteristic. Viktoria does not have it.

If she did, you could do crazy stuff like declare a faction other than Outcasts as your faction in a brawl, take Viktoria as your only master, add 10 soulstones and hire models from that faction. Levi has that ability... but he also is limited to only taking Constructs, Undead, and Soulless; and may do so from any faction so it really doesn't matter. Leveticus can only work with Ramos in a Brawl, and it has to be the Arcanists faction as Ramos does not have Mercenary as a characteristic. Again, not that it matters because of Levi's abilities.

These are more rules, like Henchman and Avatar, that are included with future releases in mind.

EDIT: The REAL ruling question is if you can hire duplicate masters in a Brawl. Masters don't have Unique as a characteristic. EDIT2: My mistake, they have it listed on their stat cards next to their cache.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Arcadies

[enderwiggin]

Good post. I had forgotten it has to work that exact way myself. I had gotten into the mentality of the two masters being interchangeable (Merc or not) in the fashion of same faction Masters. I suspect I'm not the only one though, looking back.

[Wodschow]

@Arcadies: Which is why I said that RAW it is not allowed to bring more than two mercenaries (not much of a crew) along with the Viktorias when expanding to a Brawl, and RAW you'd have to pay +1 SS for each of those two.

This is very sad from the perspective of a player who's chosen the Viks as their main/starting force and wishes to move on to Brawls.

This is the reason I suggested that at least untill Book 2 (where Viks assumingly get some other Outcast friends) you house rule it and allow allied Viks to bring any number of mercenaries at their normal cost.

-

I'm also still not convinced of the fairness of the 5SS penalty Viks gets in Brawls, but I'll stop as I really don't have any experience with Brawls.. It just doesn't look right on the paper..

[Veskit2k]

Well since the rules still a bit unclear (and being too much of a rule nazi myself to make a house rule) I figure I will just go with a 1 master brawl crew. Here is what I was thinking of:

Viktoria's (0ss)

Student of Conflict (3ss)

3xRonin (5ss each, 15ss total)

2xConvict Gunslinger (5ss each, 10ss total)

Hans (8ss)

Taelor (8ss)

Bishop (10ss)

Hamelin (9ss)

Misaki (7ss)

Since this was aiming for a 65ss list I would have 5ss left over for what have you.

What do you guys think. I figure Bishop to take care of the big guys (teddy and the mature Nephalim), misaki for some extra melee action, a 2nd gunslinger for more shooting power, and hamelin for magic.

[Guy in Suit]

Make sure you bring a maxed-out cache, or at least close too it. Vik's need stones if they are going to have to kill enemy masters.

[MadArcanist]

Also since they are gonna be the only masters on your side your gonna need some to bring back the Viks if they die. Honestly with your current force, you really don't need Hamlin. You could almost drop him and take a 4th Ronin and then have 9 SS left over. That should give you something to work with. Plus if your enemy is smart they will probably target the Ronin to prevent you from bringing your Viks back when they die.

[Melnibonean]

Agree with MadArcanist.

Ditch Hamlin for a 4th Ronin and 4SS. He doesn't fit with the rest of the crew. A spell caster isn't a "must have". The Viky's are all about melee. The last thing you want is Hamlin trying to dance models off the table whilst the rest of your crew is trying to catch them and dish out a hiding.

P.S. I've heared of a few folks dissing the Bishop. IMO he's great. He can tie up any model on the table and dish out some damage whilst your big hitters are doing their thing. If you can get him into a bottle neck he'll hold up anything trying to get through.