Lets talk Hans! Hans hans hans!

[TimeLapse]

Well I wanted to start talk about Hans, Well about using him in games why we like/ dislike him

First off I would like to state that Hans got loads better after the errata IMHO. I think actually we can all agree on that matter.

I like most players out there (I would hope) Saw Hans and thought that is a big gun, I wonder if it awesome. And that is what I want to talk about here. I played a few games now with Hans but I just discovered the errata today and was vary much likening it.

For those who don’t know the errata,

Hans's CB is now changed to Ram

His rifle damage is now 2/2/5

He can now shoot more then once but it has to be the same target each time. (You could do this before but the text was confusing)

And they cleared up the sniper rule a bit.

The big obvious benefit form the errata is the guarantee trigger of Critical strike, it will incresss your damage to be 3/3/6 if you use the trigger and if you get a 2nd Ram well then the damage is 4/4/7 witch makes the gun vary effective. With 16 inches of range, and being able to shoot though models, cover and terrain.

lets not forget if he gets his costume ammo more high jinx incur.

Also bulletproof 2 is a good boost to keep him alive.

On the move is an okay ability allowing you to at lest get a shoot off if you need to maneuver.

Lets talk downsides, Well he is costly at 8ss for what he does and most players I talk to say that convict gunslinger gives you more for the points. Also Hans has no close combat so if he gets charged he is pretty much done for unless another ally helps him out.

His movement is a big downside, he has range of 16 witch means that he has to be closer to the combat then I would like. Add in the fact that he can only move 4 inches and has no charge rating. At defense four and wounds six he will more then likely find himself charged in the third turn and killed, unless you are constantly moving him using the "on the move" rule and downplaying his guns effectiveness.

So fellow Hans enthusiasts what is your take on the model is he worth the points? Is he worth bringing in a non-outcast list? Or what is your favorite strategy using your list with Hans?. or Just talk about anything Hans related.

Sorry that got a bit wordy but I found that there are players who really like Hans and players who think he useless and I thought why not have it out once and for all, and discuss the matter.

-Andrew

Edited April 29, 2010 by TimeLapse

[tenabrae]

I think compared to Nino (obviously guild only) and the Convict Gunslinger, it's hard to see where Hans fits into those crews who would use him.... he's either going to get outpaced by fast movers and left on his own, or he's probably in a gang that doesn't need him.

[gru6y]

Ruleswise, in my opinion, he is probalby the most disappointing model in the entire game.

[Amarel]

As Tenabrae says he suffers from being a far worse, but more expensive, version of Nino. Although only Guild can take Nini, obviously, the knock-on effect is for Hans to be regarded poorly in comparison.

I'm not sure he's the most disappointing model in the entire game, though <looks at Bishop>.

[gru6y]

Yeah, Bishop is also a bit odd, but there is a lot of other cc punishers, while the system has only one badass sniper, who unfortunately is not so badass at all.

[Omadon]

Personally, I think he's good, but he has very specific uses. Obey heavy lists can do disturbing things with him, using them early game to position him, and later in the game to get him to make 5-6 shots across the board. On his own - he isn't brilliant, but he is very abusable.

That said - tempted to try him out with a Zoradia/Hamelin based crew. Doppleganger copying Obey, and a sorrow siphoning obey off of the dopple

This all said, I do think the major problem here is that he's only got 5 Cb. Nino has 7, and can hit ludicrous numbers. All of his rules aside, if he were Cb6 or had an ability to somehow increase his Cb - something similarly sniper-flavoured, that would make him alot more worth the 9 points he takes to anyone that isn't Viktoria, who won't ever use her

[ork56]

His damage output is pretty hopeless, granted there are chances for it to increase a bit, but its still not great. the headshot ability is OK, you just need to go up against a crew that you know will be using a lot of their cards in a turn - we had this very discussion last night about him against Pandora as she cheats high/low on pacify etc, burning through cards.

in short, tried him twice as 'much-needed ranged support' for my ressers and he didnt impress.

[Hatchethead]

Dammit, that's a shame. I really like the sculpt.

Oh well. I'll probably still pick him up, if only to paint and experiment with in casual games, and keep my fingers crossed for a buff down the road.

[TimeLapse]

I agree his CB should be 6 and then the following should be done to his card

Next Change Hans custom ammo spell. In no way is having different Custom ammo on you a spell? I think it should be an action that allows you to pick your custom ammo right off, maybe you have to discard a control card to pick it.

Action

(0) Custom ammo. Discard a control card to activate this ability, Hans recives the following effects when making custom rifle strikes until the end of his activation. (add the same ammo choices as the spell. Maybe the suit you discard corresponds with the type of ammo you get since there are 4 suits and 4 ammo choices)

Also when you think sniper you think that he should be good at hiding, I would give him a

Spell

(1)A Sniper hide CC 10:crows

Hans Jacket is magic and it allows him to blend into his background and give him defense +4 vs ranged attacks, the spell will wear off when he moves.

Another spell should be relocate, snipers relocate all the time to keep them hidden, it should be this

Spell

(1)Relocate under cover cc 12:crows

during the closing step if this model is not in melee range of an enemy model Hans will be pushed up to 7 inches in any direction as long as it does not put Hans within 6 inches of an enemy model. This movement does not end a snipers hide.

Finally add the rifle butt attack that Nino gets, with a range of 2 inches and a CB of 3 and damage of 1/2/3. Longer range because his rifle is longer smaller damage because it would be harder to get an effective hit with it.

Add and change all that and keep everything else he does and then he becomes a cool sniper that is worth 8ss. And if you think this is too much to add look at Nino and the fact that he is only 7ss.

This is just my idea of reinventing and making Hans a character worth having in your crew.

Edited April 29, 2010 by TimeLapse

[tenabrae]

This all said, I do think the major problem here is that he's only got 5 Cb. Nino has 7, and can hit ludicrous numbers. All of his rules aside, if he were Cb6 or had an ability to somehow increase his Cb - something similarly sniper-flavoured, that would make him alot more worth the 9 points he takes to anyone that isn't Viktoria, who won't ever use her

That's pretty much it right there... it's a fine line between balancing him and totally breaking him I suppose.

He's pretty good with student of conflict giving him fast too.

I wonder what i'd think of him if Nino didn't exist (Nino with both headshot and trigger-happy so he's got 2 suits to trigger off).

[Lucidicide]

I sort of like the idea that the sniper isn't totally awesome. I mean, obviously the idea is to make every model useful for its points cost, and maybe the sniper should be a bit better... but hey, not everyone in Malifaux can be an awesome fighter. Masters took one look at Hans and thought "look at that gun, I bet he's awesome." They paid him good money/ss, and then realized the gun was all for show...

[heckler]

Spell

(1)A Sniper hide CC 10:crows

Hans Jacket is magic and it allows him to blend into his background and give him defense +4 vs ranged attacks, the spell will wear off when he moves.

Another spell should be relocate, snipers relocate all the time to keep them hidden, it should be this

Spell

(1)Relocate under cover cc 12:crows

during the closing step if this model is not in melee range of an enemy model Hans will be pushed up to 7 inches in any direction as long as it does not put Hans within 6 inches of an enemy model. This movement does not end a snipers hide.

Finally add the rifle butt attack that Nino gets, with a range of 2 inches and a CB of 3 and damage of 1/2/3. Longer range because his rifle is longer smaller damage because it would be harder to get an effective hit with it.

Add and change all that and keep everything else he does and then he becomes a cool sniper that is worth 8ss. And if you think this is too much to add look at Nino and the fact that he is only 7ss.

This is just my idea of reinventing and making Hans a character worth having in your crew.

you sir, are ridiculous.

personally, i'm glad he's not over the top. that means that everyone isn't going crazy to take him. he still has his uses though. really i think a bump in cb by one or two would suffice. that way his low end still hits harder than nino, but he can't reach cb9 like nino.

i am intruiged by the obey hans list though. seems like he could put out around 12+ damage rather reliably.

[Amarel]

really i think a bump in cb by one or two would suffice. that way his low end still hits harder than nino, but he can't reach cb9 like nino.

So you think he'd be balanced if, despite costing more than Nino, he had a lower CB, did less damage, couldn't move and fire without a massive punishment, and had far less utility?

Your theory intrigues me... .

[Devon_v]

Hans does have one major advantage.

If the map is forested, Nino has Rg 6. Hans has 16. Who's the uber-sniper now?

Hans is a very different model from Nino. IMO, Hans is a proper sniper, and Nino is a Hollywood sniper. It's unfortunate that Hans is more expensive since he's not generally anywhere near as effective, but on the right terrain, Hans is superior. Unlike Nino's Hunter, Hans outright ignores forests, and he shoots though models, too. A heavily forested map is the correct one to deploy Hans into, and fortunately, you get to see the map before you choose your crew!

The other issue is that, like a proper sniper, Hans is a defensive model. He doesn't project a threat, he fortifies himself in a location, and waits for a target. I find that Kell Bailoch in Warmachine suffers this problem as well. Models that hold ground and wait for you to stumble into their sights don't work well in aggressive, perfect information/no fog of war, table top games.

Overall, following the errata, I think Hans is a decent model, it's just that Nino is way over the top, and makes him look bad in comparison. I'd rather see Nino cuddled into a guy with a repeating rifle, instead of being this run-and-gun, super-sniper/machine gun dude. I'm just not sure why Nino needs to have such a complete package. If I played Guild (and I might soon), Nino would be in every list, he's that good. Power, Range, Accuracy, Mobility (including the ability to ignore disengagement and severe terrain), Rate of Fire, anti-cover, Nino just doesn't have a weakness beyond his Df, and he can mitigate that by shooting you before you reach him. On top of that, Nino is companioned to a bunch of other excellent shooters, so if he can't quite get the job done, his co-activating buddy will.

Hans, Hans just shoots through trees. Nice if there're trees around.

Swapping their Cbs might be a nice start. Make Nino a 7 after he locks the target, and let Hans just be a 7 since his rules force him to pick one target anyway. Swapping their costs would be interesting, too. Make them both 8 in a Guild list, and maybe there'd be some competition. At 8 points, and Cb 7, Hans starts to look more atractive. Nino's still better overall, but at least the gap isn't so huge, and Nino's not cheaper anymore.

[Killionaire]

Hans's problem really is a combination of things. He's not really particularly accurate, nor is he hard hitting as a baseline stat, nor are his special abilities easy to cast or even particularly astonishing, nor is his cost modest.

I'd personally like Hans to act a lot more like a Sniper by promoting the use of 2-action Focused shots. Make his damage profile like 1/3/7 or something strong at the high end, so that you're encouraged to take one damned good shot with as many plus modifiers as possible. CB5 is also exceptionally sad for any kind of 'sharpshooter'.

Make that custom ammo no longer require rams. It isn't even that good for what it provides.

If you think that a 7 high end damage is particularly scary, it isn't really. Think of how great Samael Hopkins is, at lower points cost at that. And this version of Hans will have a way, way, way lower 'low end' damage output to balance out the range, and Sam's bag of tricks.

[TimeLapse]

I think that all hans really needs is a cb of 7 so that if he hits he can do some sort of damage, it seems to me with his low cb he is always getting the -2 twist on his damage flips, so what he does two damage? even if you focus its almost always ends in a negitve flip because his target normally has better defense then this "Sniper" has aiming power.

The way the rules have him it seems like he stole his dads gun and ammo, has no idea how to load the ammo so he has to perform magic to get it to work and then he trys to shoot something if he is lucky. He has no natural skill at all for shoot? Look at the other CB for shooting in the game and you will find out that he is average shoot, so it stands to reason that he has no experience as a sniper at all but decided he can shoot a gun so he must be able to be a sniper. Perdita whole family is a better shoots the this self proclaimed sniper.

He has only one CB over a 2 point gremin, and only 4 more inches on his gun.

For a more realistic Hans (That is a real sniper) I would give him CB 8. I mean in his fluff text it says, “Han’s sure sight and steady hands are highly sought after.” Not “Han’s ability to nick his target or complete miss them made most Masters feel sorry for him and hired him to watch an unimportant flank.”

Also like what I posted before I would change custom ammo into a (0) Action, that required you to discard 1 control card of the right suit to get the ammo you want. There are four suits and four ammo choices, not everything has to be a spell. If you don’t have the suit in your hand then you are running low on that ammo, it makes more sense to me to do it this way.

I think it is funny in Hans’s fluff text it says “… Always carries an assortment of custom-made ammunition…” so why does he have to perform magic to get it out of his ammo pack? Does he have it float to him, and if he can’t summon it though magic then he is like “alright then I will just use normal bullets no point in moving my hand to my ammo pouch”.

Finally I would do what other players said and make him cost only 7ss I know its only one difference but that could be the difference between winning and losing.

I would not increases his damage, now that its 2/2/5 with an auto critical strike on rams it’s a good weapon, it will hit for 3/3/6 every time and if you draw a ram its 4/4/7 so there is a lot of damage to be had at his level. But that is only if they change custom ammo to a non-spell form, if they don’t well then I would make him a 2/4/6 starting damage stats.

I do think Hans needs more as it stands the Guild Austrunger is a better shoot (CB 7)and can shoot at 18 inches for only being 5 points.

I would settle for making Hans CB 7 and reducing his SS points to 7 and keeping the rest as is then at lest he would be worth his points.

As always, ready to rant about Han’s

-Andrew

Edited May 4, 2010 by TimeLapse

[heckler]

So you think he'd be balanced if, despite costing more than Nino, he had a lower CB, did less damage, couldn't move and fire without a massive punishment, and had far less utility?

Your theory intrigues me... .

the sum of what i truly think is that he has crit strike, so hits harder than nino along with the eratta. he ignores models when firing, and forests outright. ignores spells that hinder LOS. all this for shooting the same model twice. i realize you can't reliably move and shoot, but the whole point is trying not to.

i'd call the cb boost a wash with the custom ammo considering it ignores armor, or does other decent things.

also, hans is available to everyone who wants to take him. in general, this tends to boost the cost of things.

[Uriel]

Watched a Guild (Sonnia) vs Outcast (Vikkies) game tonight.

Turn 2, Hans took out a Peacekeeper with a well placed shot, then a second (Kill Shot) with a Red joker flip.

Numbers Crunchers can lambast stats all day, but if you use him right, he can pin down a fair number of models (Outcast player had Bishop,Melee Vikkie and some Ronin moving in whilst Hans provided fire support. The game had the proper 'Old West' feel, and Dammit...that is one cool model (Ha!).

-Uriel

[Hatchethead]

and Dammit...that is one cool model (Ha!).

Truth, and that's all that matters to me. Stats change, but he'll always be a cool sculpt!

[Lucidicide]

I see all these comparisons to Nino, and I understand why that is, but still... if there was an Outcast model that was better than Nino for basically one point more, Nino becomes far less useful.

I just don't think it's entirely fair to draw the comparisons between a "anyone can take this" model and a model that only a specific faction can take. Hans has to be thought of in terms of working with absolutely every model in the game, and Nino does not.

Plenty of people seem to see Hans as at least "good enough", and at the very least, he's a sniper anyone can use. That seems pretty special to me.

[tenabrae]

I see all these comparisons to Nino, and I understand why that is, but still... if there was an Outcast model that was better than Nino for basically one point more, Nino becomes far less useful.

It's not about being better than Nino, it's about being vaguely equivalent for his cost, and competing with the convict gunslinger.

What a lot of Hans' defenders (if we can call them that ) in this thread are glossing over is his relatively terrible Cb, that he can only shoot one target per turn, and that he can't move unless he wants an even more terrible attack. Even letting him move and fire while less fluffy, would be a good step to addressing his core suckyness.

He has great abilities, and outside of spells unmatched ranged damage in a single strike, but he has to be able to deliver the hits.

Edited May 5, 2010 by tenabrae
terminology

[Devon_v]

I see all these comparisons to Nino, and I understand why that is, but still... if there was an Outcast model that was better than Nino for basically one point more, Nino becomes far less useful.

How about if he's roughly similar to Nino for the same point cost? Why is it acceptable that Nino, for a point less, is superior in every statistical category? Yes, only a Guild list can take Nino, but shouldn't that list pay an appropriate price for the power that he brings to it? If Nino were 8 points, (or Hans 7) then Nino would still be better, but that would be the bonus for playing Guild. You get a better sniper for the same points that everyone else pays.

Remember, Nino is a Companion. That will always be a powerful ability that Hans does not possess. Also, Hans' gun may do more damage, but Nino shoots more often (Trigger Happy lets him double tap one target, then take out another, or take two or more shots on the run) and more accurately, (CB 9 makes it hard to prevent him from cheating severe damage.) Hans needs really high cards to get a decent hit, or he needs to Focus, which means he gets a whopping one attack just to lock in 6-7 damage. Nino can throw out 10 damage pretty reliably for the same two AP.

That's really the odd part between the two of them. Nino is a run-and-gun guy with a repeating rifle with iron sights. Hans is a sniper with a scoped rifle. Somehow they have the same effective range and the rapid-fire, iron sight weapon is more accurate.

Ideally, Hans should be more expensive (or at least of equal cost), and at least comparable to Nino. He should definitely be able to out do the Convict Gunslinger.

[Lucidicide]

Fair enough. I hadn't planned on buying and/or fielding him, but it's interesting to see the responses.

Do you think there's any chance he'd actually be in errata to make him more comparable? All the errata I've paid attention to seems to clarify what's out there, and it doesn't seem like Hans needs clarification. Is Hans just one of those models that people will mostly take because they like the model, resigned to his fate as a sub-par sniper?

[tenabrae]

Do you think there's any chance he'd actually be in errata to make him more comparable? All the errata I've paid attention to seems to clarify what's out there, and it doesn't seem like Hans needs clarification. Is Hans just one of those models that people will mostly take because they like the model, resigned to his fate as a sub-par sniper?

He's already had his gun errata'd to do more damage. I suspect as the game grows and more people find more ways to break the system and synergise other models, dudes like Hans will get 'fixed' whether by errata, or in the 2nd edition of the rules if/when that happens.

As he stand now, he's not worthless, he's just not worth his cost, expecially out of faction.... definitely in the 'because he's cool' basket.

[Devon_v]

Agreed. A Guild vs. Outcast match with Hans and Nino should feel like Enemy at the Gates, but that's not going to happen as is.

Even if he somehow hits with On the Move, Hans will at best (barring the Red Joker) come up one shy of killing Nino. Nino, with a decent Mask, can move, and hit Hans easily with the two shots needed to take him out. (Even with Bulletproof, Nino will inflict 6 damage in two shots)

The exception is, of course, forested terrain. Why Hans outdoes the ranger in a forest is beyond me.